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CharlieFoxtrot posted:These were all ho-hum auteurist "Look at me, aren't I smart" riffs that were pointless in the grand scheme of a narrative that tried so hard to appear profound but actually turned out to be hackneyed garbage that was borderline racist, smashed like a child's mushed peas across interminable and and painful combat encounters against bullet sponge after bullet sponge. Well, Bioshock sold over 25 million copies series wide with over 11 million being Bioshock Infinite with, outside of this echo chamber, glowing reviews for both press and gamers alike. 2017 Prey might be lucky to crack 750k sold combined across all platforms. So, I guess it's pretty easy to come to a conclusion which world building technique is more desired. If you present show me over read me, I guarantee you 99% of everyone will pick show me any day of the week. That isn't Prey's only glaring issue though. Prey has no soul to it.
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Jun 27, 2017 21:28
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ah yes, more money = better than, classic
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Jun 27, 2017 21:30
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Utnayan posted:Well, Bioshock sold over 25 million copies series wide with over 11 million being Bioshock Infinite with, outside of this echo chamber, glowing reviews for both press and gamers alike. 2017 Prey might be lucky to crack 750k sold combined across all platforms. So, I guess it's pretty easy to come to a conclusion which world building technique is more desired. If you present show me over read me, I guarantee you 99% of everyone will pick show me any day of the week. That isn't Prey's only glaring issue though. Prey has no soul to it. While I somewhat agree with you (though not as extreme), to be fair Infinite was the supposed final entry in a decade-old series, while Prey is the first entry in what is basically a new IP. Also, Bioshock Infinite sold 11 million copies over a couple years. Prey has been out for a month. edit: Also, also, if we're quoting sales numbers, Prey and Infinite sold pretty similarly in their first month anyway, so...
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Jun 27, 2017 21:31
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Having just replayed BioShock Infinite for charity (long story) I can say with 100% certainty that it's poo poo and for the longest time I was pretty convinced it had killed immersive sims until basically Prey came along as the second coming (although Dishonored + Dishonored 2 were basically John the Baptist). I think the shooting in BioShock Infinite is pretty lovely - certainly worse than BioShock and BioShock 2 - and I think the powers are extremely boring, but its biggest sins are completely destroying everything good about immersive sims, a process that started with BioShock but which reached its pinnacle with Infinite. BioShock already got rid a lot of the back tracking, a lot of the inventory management, and a lot of the exploration. It did still have a pretty intricate world, plenty of stuff to find in that world (so that you could craft alternate ammo), reasons to stock up on supplies (to fight the Big Daddies), and a wee bit of the ecosystem sort of thing going on (luring Splicers to Big Daddies, hacking cameras, etc.). Infinite, meanwhile, has basically no back tracking except in the boring sense of sometimes forcing you to run through a level backwards, has zero inventory management beyond the completely nonsensical gear system which has gently caress all to do with anything, and almost perfunctory exploration. The only poo poo you find is the gear, the magical potions which upgrade your health, shields, or mana, poo poo to eat or drink right then and there or never again, and of course the audio logs where people recorded their deepest secrets and then scattered them everywhere for lord knows who to find. All the *Shock games up until Infinite put a lot of effort into being immersive sims in the sense of crafting a world that you could lose yourself in, and two large parts of this are having intricate interlinked systems and having believable world design. The intricate interlinked systems help immerse you because when things interact with each other, everything feels connected. The believable world design is important for obvious reasons. Everyone is dead in System Shock up through BioShock 2 because the developers realized you can't really have an immersive world full of audio logs to read, stuff to take, and so on if you're in an environment with normal people, and also you can't go around killing if you're just up against normal people because then you'd just feel like a serial killer. BioShock Infinite ignored all that and so you have Booker DeWitt running around eating hot dogs out of the trash in front of children and electrocuting the heads off of one hundred police officers in a row while you listen to recordings by Comstock's wife, and it's all in the context of what's basically a corridor shooter. There are no bosses you carefully plan out your attack against, no tough enemies to circumnavigate and come back to later, no interesting progression in terms of powers, and no cool physics stuff, which I think is something really nice that BioShock helped bring to the genre (Deus Ex was there first, of course, but whatever). There are some nice things about Infinite, like the fact that it's loving gorgeous, or the old timey songs, but I also think Prey's art design is tremendous and of course the fact that it's a great immersive sim makes up for the fact that it doesn't have a merry go round playing "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun."
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Jun 27, 2017 21:32
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ultrachrist posted:This is actually making me laugh it's so absurd. Let's go find a real world disaster zone and all the single-use devices of taped conversations relevant to the plot/disaster. Let's also read the email inboxes with 3 emails in them, also typically relevant to the plot. Neither approach is particularly plausible. Both games make you believe in the world enough to take it in stride (well, Prey and Bioshock did, agreed that Infinite is racist garbage). How is Infinite racist? I thought if anything it was kind of hamfisted about it's anti-racist message, considering the opening sequence where the people running the festival try and get you to pelt an interracial couple with baseballs (There's a line like "Isn't that the prettiest young white girl you've ever seen?" which is really inelegant). There's racist stuff in the game, but it's on the side of the bad guys and presented in a cartoonish sort of way. One of the first areas even has you straight up gunning down Klan members.
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Jun 27, 2017 21:32
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Utnayan posted:Well, Bioshock sold over 25 million copies series wide with over 11 million being Bioshock Infinite with, outside of this echo chamber, glowing reviews for both press and gamers alike. 2017 Prey might be lucky to crack 750k sold combined across all platforms. So, I guess it's pretty easy to come to a conclusion which world building technique is more desired. If you present show me over read me, I guarantee you 99% of everyone will pick show me any day of the week. That isn't Prey's only glaring issue though. Prey has no soul to it. Utnayan posted:Metacritic, and even the users, disagree. And went on to sell over 11 million copies and was the best selling Bioshock game ever. I consider that most definitely not a reason why irrational games folded. Regardless of my opinion on which games are good and not, "Thing is popular" is a horrible metric by which to judge how good that thing is. Justin Bieber is popular. Fidget spinners are popular. Popular garbage is absolutely festooned throughout every facet of culture.
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Jun 27, 2017 21:36
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Ah yes, us "gamers" are the ones who say what is "good" or "bad", mmm yes *puffs on pipe* (This thread has gone to poo poo you nerds)
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Jun 27, 2017 21:38
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CJacobs posted:I replayed it recently and it's just as good as I remember, personally! Good good. I fricking loved it when it first came out. I think I remembered the char as being far more mobile. I love the level design and aesthetic though.
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Jun 27, 2017 21:40
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GRINDCORE MEGGIDO posted:Good good. I fricking loved it when it first came out. I think I remembered the char as being far more mobile. Yeah, the movement speed in all of the Bioshock games is slow as molassess, I'm glad Infinite lets you sprint.
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Jun 27, 2017 21:41
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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:How is Infinite racist? I thought if anything it was kind of hamfisted about it's anti-racist message, considering the opening sequence where the people running the festival try and get you to pelt an interracial couple with baseballs (There's a line like "Isn't that the prettiest young white girl you've ever seen?" which is really inelegant). There's racist stuff in the game, but it's on the side of the bad guys and presented in a cartoonish sort of way. One of the first areas even has you straight up gunning down Klan members. It's been a long time, but IIRC the basic gist is: the oppressed black people start a revolution and in an extremely hackneyed scene, their leader either murders or threatens to murder a white child. This triggers Booker to say something like "The Revolution is just bad as Comstock!". So basically the only black person given characterization in the game is as monstrous as Comstock says they are in one of the racist funhouses you go through in the beginning of the game. On top of that, an uprising, even a bloody one, portrayed as "the same" as the brutal oppressive society that created it in the first place is unbelievably dishonest and stupid (and racist in this context).
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Jun 27, 2017 21:44
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ultrachrist posted:It's been a long time, but IIRC the basic gist is: the oppressed black people start a revolution and in an extremely hackneyed scene, their leader either murders or threatens to murder a white child. This triggers Booker to say something like "The Revolution is just bad as Comstock!". Well, considering the game took place in 1912, I would say it's reflective of the time period of what race relations were at that point. Mafia 3 was very racist as well as it took place in the 60's at the height of the Civil rights movement. I guess I do not understand your argument for why that makes a game bad. You want that watered down so it didn't exist? Utnayan fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Jun 27, 2017 |
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Jun 27, 2017 21:47
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Here's a neat article about the design of the Typhon.
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Jun 27, 2017 21:50
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TychoCelchuuu posted:BioShock already got rid a lot of the back tracking, a lot of the inventory management, and a lot of the exploration. It did still have a pretty intricate world, plenty of stuff to find in that world (so that you could craft alternate ammo), reasons to stock up on supplies (to fight the Big Daddies), and a wee bit of the ecosystem sort of thing going on (luring Splicers to Big Daddies, hacking cameras, etc.). There was a moment in my recent replay of BioShock that reminded me what the game wasn't. In the area around where you get the telekinesis power, there's a room with prominent windows through which you see the door (that's locked) and the button that unlocks it. My mind immediately went to telekinesis and I spent 5 minutes flinging stuff at the button to no avail. As I was shuffling to get a better angle, I realized I could actually fit through the window; something must've blocked me the first time. I tried throwing things from directly in front of the button but it simply wasn't designed with that interaction in mind (shooting didn't work either). ZeeBoi posted:Ah yes, us "gamers" are the ones who say what is "good" or "bad", mmm yes *puffs on pipe* What are you talking about? It's a discussion and bringing up metacritic numbers is a horrible argument against specific criticisms.
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Jun 27, 2017 21:51
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GRINDCORE MEGGIDO posted:Good good. I fricking loved it when it first came out. I think I remembered the char as being far more mobile. Yeah. I tend to think that Char should be at least three times more mobile.
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Jun 27, 2017 21:51
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chiasaur11 posted:Yeah. I tend to think that Char should be at least three times more mobile. I think the slow movement speed is irking me, and the itch I have for 3d exploration is just scratched *for me* in a more fulfilling way by DH / Prey. ZeeBoi posted:(This thread has gone to poo poo you nerds)  Oh this owns. Nice. GRINDCORE MEGGIDO fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Jun 27, 2017 |
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Jun 27, 2017 21:51
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Utnayan posted:Well, considering the game took place in 1912, I would say it's reflective of the time period of what race relations were at that point. Mafia 3 was very racist as well as it took place in the 60's at the height of the Civil rights movement. I guess I do not understand your argument for why that makes a game bad. You want that watered down so it didn't exist? Scenes like the mix raced couple tied up are the game pointing out 1912 was super racist. It's intentional. The situation I just described was the game's narrative being racist. It wasn't intentional.
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Jun 27, 2017 22:15
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The thing that elevates Prey from being a medicore game is the level design imho. Not just because the levels combine into something that feels like a real place, but because they're also good as game levels. It takes little imagination to make a place that feels real and conversely it's much easier to make good levels when you're not constrained by having to conform to any concept of realism. Prey manages to make dense & interesting levels that are packed with gaming elements (gas pipes, maintenance hatches, hidden items, alternative routes, audio logs etc.) that don't feel out of place and for me that's what makes an immersive sim if I had to define it because that's what makes it immersive to the player. Prey really hits the mark and goes above just being a shooter with RPG elements and audiologs which is what I feel about Bioshock. That's one of the things Prey does better than System Shock 2, but SS2 was constrained by the technology of the time. But what SS2 does better than Prey is the feeling of desperation, horror and tension which was somewhat lacking in Prey after the first hour or two for me. That said it's an amazing game and anyone who liked SS2 or even Deus Ex should definitely pick this up since it's like both those games had a designer baby where someone picked the best genes. I think we should all talk about what we think of Prey instead of blathering about whether Bioshock Infinite was racist since that sort of posting is toxic and just shits up threads.
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Jun 27, 2017 23:04
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Jim Flatline posted:That's one of the things Prey does better than System Shock 2, but SS2 was constrained by the technology of the time. But what SS2 does better than Prey is the feeling of desperation, horror and tension which was somewhat lacking in Prey after the first hour or two for me. That said it's an amazing game and anyone who liked SS2 or even Deus Ex should definitely pick this up since it's like both those games had a designer baby where someone picked the best genes. I can understand someone who wanted the game to be as tense as the first couple hours the entire time, but I like that it wasn't as much a survival horror thing as System Shock 2. The original System Shock was similar: by the end you were basically a super soldier skating around blowing away assholes with lasers. I liked that sort of thing, since it was a nice change of pace.
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Jun 27, 2017 23:10
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The only bioshock I've played was infinite. I remember being super impressed and immersed for the first bit, but it quickly became a kinda bland shooter. still finished it though. Prey on the other hand immersed me deeply. I would think about the game at work all the time. My first play through was 36 hours and after beating it I started up a new game the next day. It really scratches that system shock/deus ex itch.
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Jun 28, 2017 00:05
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One thing that I wish had been made more clear in Prey was the rising typhon spread and "respawning" enemies as areas went through phases. First time I revisited an area to find new enemies there I got confused about how the game intended to handle local continuity but it all worked out in the end. If it had just been a little more spelled out it wouldn't have bugged me in the first place, though.Utnayan posted:Dishonored 2 and Prey are some of the most uninspired games I have played through. They bored me to absolute tears, I didn't like the art direction, the game play was medicore, and nothing popped out as actually anything better than "Blah", aside from "Hey at least you can have a couple ways to do something which ends in the same result anyway". I have always thought Arkane was one of the most overrated studios ever. When I see people saying Prey reminds them of System Shock or Bioshock, I think they need to go back and play those again because I am guessing they may have a memory disorder.
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Jun 28, 2017 02:07
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cant wait to hear how the ss1 remake fails to recapture the magic of how hard it was to play with a racing wheel on a graphing calculator
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Jun 28, 2017 04:08
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Does the achievement for doing one playthrough with only psionic powers and another with only human count only if done in that order? I relied heavily on turrets in my first run, which I just beat, and so I never ended up using a single psychic mod. If I did another with only psychic powers, would I get that sweet sweet 'chevo? Or would it not count because I went Human --> Alien as opposed to the other way around? Another question: That achievement for never using a neuro-mod - what the HELL? Sounds super fun and drat near impossible. Anyone know a write-up of someone who pulled it off? I'm not sure I want to commit to that, but I'd love to read about it. And secondly, if you do go that route, what happens in the "real" ending? In my ending the... operators? (It's super unclear if they're robots designed to think like those characters, if they're like... the uploaded consciousness of those characters, or if those characters never even existed) were on my side because I never used alien mods. Do they mention it if you just never use any mod?
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Jun 28, 2017 06:26
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and I don't know why I'm diving into this, but imo Bioshock Infinite was anti-racist, it just was poorly done. There's real effort in the beginning into showing you this american utopia has a very racist, limited understanding as who qualifies as American. The stuff about the wars against the Native Americans and Chinese also pushes that theme forward - it takes american exceptionalism and puts the racial world-view behind that ideology front and center. The stuff about the revolution turning violent isn't racist, it's nonsense. At that point the game writing has all but collapsed and the plot basically gave up attempting to make sense. IIRC, you help out the revolution, get trapped somewhere, and JUMP INTO ANOTHER DIMENSION where the revolution has gone evil and insane. This is mention in like one line of dialog but the last 20% of B:I takes place in another version of Columbia. So idk. Did the rebel leader chick turn evil? Or did you just jump into the mirror universe? There wasn't enough plot motivation for her heel-turn, but by that point there were plot-holes big enough to drive a truck through. Accidentally racist, reactionary comment about the result of revolutions? lovely writing? Weird metaphysics? It's honestly not worth figuring out. B:I may not have been perfect in delivering it's message but I can't imagine anyone beating it and going "you know those nice white folks I met at the start of the game had it right, I'm sorry I ever came to Columbia and messed up it's perfect, racially clean utopia." edit: oh and that (ugh) "negro spiritual" cover of Fortunate Son was THE poo poo. It took a song from a protest movement that was mostly white and re-contextualized it in a way that makes it all but impossible to not consider history of race relations in America without, IMO, diminishing the spirit of the song or making GBS threads on CCR for being a buncha white guys. Digital Osmosis fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 06:37
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You're a moron and routinely troll threads.
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Jun 28, 2017 06:43
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Digital Osmosis posted:Does the achievement for doing one playthrough with only psionic powers and another with only human count only if done in that order? I relied heavily on turrets in my first run, which I just beat, and so I never ended up using a single psychic mod. If I did another with only psychic powers, would I get that sweet sweet 'chevo? Or would it not count because I went Human --> Alien as opposed to the other way around? No neuro-mods isn't that much more difficult than a human-only game (actually, I didn't take combat focus in my human-only run so it's probably a lot harder than anyone else's). You'll pick fights with the higher tier typhons less because you don't really have the tools to do significant damage to them so they become more of a chore and chew through more resources, and you're tight on inventory the entire game so you do a bit of shuffling around to keep stocked on ammo - but using prior experience you can get going a lot quicker than your first few runs and you can ignore a lot of the station. The ending takes into account not using any neuro-mods.
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Jun 28, 2017 07:49
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Prey is so much better than Bioshock Infinite, B:I just had a >$100 million development budget, like lo loving l. Them singing Will the Circle Be Unbroken was good as poo poo though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpr6W3lAeaQ Unormal fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 07:57
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Infinite was fun for like 30 minutes, then it turned into an awesome-looking corridor shooter with bullet sponge enemies and ultimately bored me to tears (and the multiverse conceit was completely unnecessary and led to the extremely stupid equivocation between the Vox and the powers that be, as in "huh, maybe they're both bad???" - just brainless). Prey on the other hand had me engaged and on the edge of my seat for the entirety of its duration (apart from the endless back and forth through loading screens at the end).
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Jun 28, 2017 10:42
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Infinite just isn't in the same genre. Infinite is a lovely game to play through, but it's not a 'Sim' in the vein of Prey/DX/System Shock. (I'd argue none of the Bioshock series are really, they lean way more heavily into the FPS space, limited methods to approach events, etc.) and its just Infinite is right into the 'corridor shooter' end of the spectrum. It's got more in common with DOOM in that regard. They're just different games for different reasons, with different appeals. Also, Elizabeth is probably the single best attempt to make a 'sidekick'/'narrator' character to lead the player that isn't deeply infuriating to have around, so there's kudos to Levine & Co. for that.
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Jun 28, 2017 10:48
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Shockeh posted:Infinite just isn't in the same genre. Infinite is a lovely game to play through, but it's not a 'Sim' in the vein of Prey/DX/System Shock. (I'd argue none of the Bioshock series are really, they lean way more heavily into the FPS space, limited methods to approach events, etc.) and its just Infinite is right into the 'corridor shooter' end of the spectrum. It's got more in common with DOOM in that regard. This is the truth. You could tell bioshock 1 was going for something different than system shock solely from the fact that it had no inventory system, and the rest of the games continued that. The series is all pretty straight FPSes, and that's fine. Prey is far closer to system shock 2 than bioshock and I thought the reviews calling it a "bioshock clone" were absurdly dumb poo poo. Not sure why people call infinite a "corridor shooter" when the majority of its fights are in wide open areas with verticality and player mobility options.
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Jun 28, 2017 16:13
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Utnayan posted:Dishonored 2 and Prey are some of the most uninspired games I have played through. They bored me to absolute tears, I didn't like the art direction, the game play was medicore, and nothing popped out as actually anything better than "Blah", aside from "Hey at least you can have a couple ways to do something which ends in the same result anyway". I have always thought Arkane was one of the most overrated studios ever. When I see people saying Prey reminds them of System Shock or Bioshock, I think they need to go back and play those again because I am guessing they may have a memory disorder. Same except exactly the opposite about everything. Question: Trying to gauge how far through the game I am, at the moment I'm attempting to get to the reactor room to reset it so I can regain access to the rest of the station; how much more main story is there after I accomplish this? I want to pace out the rest of my sidequests as best I can. e: A percentage of the main story line would work <3 black.lion fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 16:36
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Vib Rib posted:
I only made that argument because people starting comparing Prey to Bioshock. The games inherently are obviously different. But it doesn't change the fact that Prey is uninspired, and most definitely will not sell well as a result. I can also admit my own bias in my opinion because I firmly believe Arkane studios is one of the most overrated development houses in the industry for what they put out. Prey is a mediocre game - it isn't anything like System Shock 2 (Which I loved) or atmospheric like the Bioshock series which I also loved obviously. And I also think it's completely silly to even compare the games * at all *. I will also fully admit that I couldn't care less about 4 ways to do things in a level, which I am sure some people like, when it is planted in a watered-down world build and rutted in poor mechanics from a game play perspective. And that's what Prey is.
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Jun 28, 2017 16:58
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Have you finished prey? I know a lot of people that thought prey wasn't very good changed their minds after playing it again, much like system shock 2. This game is the closest you're gonna get to system shock 2 for a while.
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Jun 28, 2017 17:13
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lambskin posted:Have you finished prey? I know a lot of people that thought prey wasn't very good changed their minds after playing it again, much like system shock 2. This game is the closest you're gonna get to system shock 2 for a while. No. I ended up refunding it.
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Jun 28, 2017 17:15
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I see immersive sim goons continue to be constitutionally incapable of regarding a troll with unseriousness It's like they're so tired of making their case only to themselves that they'll take literally anyone else
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Jun 28, 2017 17:16
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Digirat posted:Not sure why people call infinite a "corridor shooter" when the majority of its fights are in wide open areas with verticality and player mobility options.
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Jun 28, 2017 17:29
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Man who does not like exploration or creativity in video games does not like games which focus on exploration and creativity. What a shock.
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Jun 28, 2017 17:45
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black.lion posted:Same except exactly the opposite about everything. Don't know about percentage but you're entering the final stretch. Probably think about finishing anything optional.
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Jun 28, 2017 18:07
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Rinkles posted:Don't know about percentage but you're entering the final stretch. Probably think about finishing anything optional. Haha I still haven't activated the main lift.
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Jun 28, 2017 18:13
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black.lion posted:Haha I still haven't activated the main lift. That thing was a death trap for me (because the devs didn't account for how it could interact with the nightmare)
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Jun 28, 2017 18:15
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Rinkles posted:That thing was a death trap for me (because the devs didn't account for how it could interact with the nightmare) I'm still amused how The Nightmare can get into your main office. That was quite a shocker, idk how it squeezed in there.
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Jun 28, 2017 18:37
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