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YoshiOfYellow posted:There's also... A4 was it? Where the healers get a JUSTICE disease and need to be away from everyone else. This was the nisi mechanic. In A4S the way it's supposed to work is you pass the debuff off to someone else (damaging both party members in the process) and juggle it around ala allagan rot in T2. There are two debuffs that go out, and you cannot have both or you die, and they hurt anytime you pass them off. In the final phase there's a set of adds that pop up and people with nisi would touch them to blow them up and not die. Instead of actually doing these mechanics people just let nisi's cooldown tick off and then just sacrificed three players to the adds.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:15
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Tsurupettan posted:wow's melee healer was never viable as a primary heal role except for like maybe one patch where it was overtuned as gently caress and could pump out both large amounts of healing and dps at the same time. otherwise, you only ever used that spec when it was farm content nobody cared about to make it go a little bit faster. I thought I remember mistweavers being really solid for awhile, since they did decent healing and could skip a bunch of mechanics since they counted as melee.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:16
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Warhammer Online had dedicated melee healers. They had to fight in melee and deal damage to build up the juice for healing.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:17
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Mordiceius posted:I think the solution to the problem "ASTs ignore everything that isn't an expanded balance" shouldn't be "Well, lets force them to use the other cards." but instead "Lets make the other cards better." that solves the problem of never seeing anything other than balance, but not never seeing anything other than expanded royal road
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Jun 28, 2017 20:17
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like, the point of sleeve draw is to make you go, "well gently caress, how am i going to make this work"
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Jun 28, 2017 20:18
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Oxyclean posted:I thought I remember mistweavers being really solid for awhile, since they did decent healing and could skip a bunch of mechanics since they counted as melee. mistweavers are VERY GOOD and you are correct that they count as melee for ranged mechanics! fistweavers have not been good for a while and iirc they just slammed another nail in the coffin for them a few months ago. while they're the same class, you have to specifically talent into the punchy-melee-healer bits. e: Cythereal posted:Warhammer Online had dedicated melee healers. They had to fight in melee and deal damage to build up the juice for healing. you're right, i forgot about this, but that goes into what I said about there being nothing on the market since that game is dead! Unless you count the private server.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:21
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Oxyclean posted:I thought I remember mistweavers being really solid for awhile, since they did decent healing and could skip a bunch of mechanics since they counted as melee. Mistweavers are alright but they aren't too different from other healers, I think people refer to the atonement-like stance they used to have pre-Legion where a portion of damage dealt transferred into healing?
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Jun 28, 2017 20:21
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I got it. Blue mage is just the dedicated healer version of Red Mage. Same dualcast procs except on all the heals, same swish swoosh with a sword, and blue flavored outfits instead of red. Alternatively, just loving do chemist. I want to throw things at people to heal them.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:23
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Reiterpallasch posted:that solves the problem of never seeing anything other than balance, but not never seeing anything other than expanded royal road I mean, I would go even further and suggest arrow/spear need a different royal road effect. Especially in dungeons lengthening the duration is often just like 'ok well now it's going to fall off awkwardly on the way to the next group'.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:23
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Tsurupettan posted:you're right, i forgot about this, but that goes into what I said about there being nothing on the market since that game is dead! Unless you count the private server. Still, it was an interesting concept. IIRC they were a builder/spender class where their builders were all melee attacks and their spenders were all heals. The devs were quite explicit about wanting even the healers to get stuck in rather than hanging back.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:24
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BLU would be a kickass tank. Their special thing they do when their Job guage is filled could be "Observe", where they start building up stacks based on the damage done to them by attacks in that time, and at the end they cast a spell that's thematic to the boss's creature type with power proportionate to stacks. You can get a lot more stacks if you time it so you face-tank a Tankbuster or AOE during Observe.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:26
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Philonius posted:Implement chronomancer tank, then include characters from Chrono Trigger as NPCs in their class quest, thanks. Brother Entropy posted:ftr when i think 'melee healer' i don't think 'literally has to be in melee range of allies to heal them' because that's probably the most insufferable idea in the world, i'm just thinking more whatever their weird unique mechanic that other healers don't get involves whacking at monsters in melee range The first bit is what Paladins in WoW are now, the Second bit is what Mistweaver monks used to have (the term Developers used for it was Fistweaving). The issue is that there are certain mechanics in fights that only target Healers/Ranged DPS, usually involving whatever kind of spread/clump/positioning thing the Ranged need to do that fight. And Mistweavers had their class tagged as basically role-less for that so they weren't dumping AOE silences on the tank or something stupid like that. Of course that happened even if they weren't in melee, so Mistweavers got to cheese some content just by dint of having the possibility of being in melee. So they got rid of that and Fistweaving stopped being A Thing except on the fights that would allow it, and people weren't too keen on learning a new playstyle for 2 fights a tier. Paladins now have like, a talent, that triggers based on being in melee, and their mastery makes them heal more if they're within a certain radius of a person. So they tend to be melee adjacent, but not in the clump.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:27
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I also think that tanks have the smallest design space. All three tanks do the exact same thing just in variably flashy ways. This is a necessity of the design and I think a 4th tank no matter the name on its face would feel samey.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:31
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wasnt BLU a melee class in FFXI?
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Jun 28, 2017 20:34
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queeb posted:wasnt BLU a melee class in FFXI? They were! They were similar to XIV's RDM in that they had some spells and could support heal. RDM in XIV's Raise is unique, though.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:38
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Chemist could totally work, with a limited version of Mix for some of their non-core healing spells. Like just have Throw Potion be their equivalent of Cure, Throw Hi-Potion for Cure II, Throw Phoenix Down for Raise, but things like their utility could be handled with a version of Mix that works like Ninja mudras. I think they'd probably still need to use MP, though I'm sure people would say it "doesn't make sense." That's a consideration that would be pretty necessary for balance. Even in WoW, classes that don't normally use mana (like Monks) switch to having a mana bar when they use their healing spec. There's no way you'd be able to have a healing class that wasn't limited by MP. Reiterpallasch posted:like, i realize i'm just making GBS threads on a lot of ideas here, but ffxiv is welded really tightly to the trinity and has a very clear vision for what each member of the trinity should be able to do. it's not really an accident that all the tanks do pretty much the same thing with different flavor/secondary resource mechanics, for example. not having to account for 30 different wild and wacky class gimmicks is one of the reason fight design in this game is so good. Ultimately, I don't think Blue Mage absolutely has to be some kind of crazy, unique animal. Like others have said, FFXIV's Red Mage bears only a superficial resemblance to past Red Mages, specifically because a true hybrid doesn't work in FFXIV's paradigm. And yet, Red Mage has been pretty well-accepted, because a) they kept the flavor of using both black and white magic, and b) they threw in some utility that pays homage to the Red Mage's ability to heal with Vercure and Verraise. The idea that Blue Mage should be a tank makes a lot of sense, at least to me, because they often have to get hit to learn their abilities. If you had them as a fairly basic tank with a core, sword-based combo (since they've used scimitars pretty prominently in recent appearances, like in FFXI and the Tactics Advance games) with their AoE threat generation abilities being superficially based on monster abilities, that would be pretty cool, I think. Those abilities don't have to be functionally 1:1 with existing monster abilities, just similar enough that they're recognizable, like how the Summoner's Deathflare clearly calls to mind Akh Morn without actually being Akh Morn. Then maintain the Blue Mage flavor by having their job quests focus around hunting down monsters to learn legendary abilities, so you still have some of that "learn your abilities from monsters" flavor. Classic skills like Mighty Guard could easily be a defensive cooldown (though Mighty Guard, specifically, is already a tank limit break), White Wind could work as a self-heal, Bad Breath could debuff enemies (it doesn't need to hit them with a whole suite of status effects to keep its flavor), that kind of thing. It'd be possible to give them some sort of defensive cooldown called just "Blue Magic" or something that lets them get hit by something, then the Blue Magic skill combos into something else depending on the type of damage they got hit with, but that'd be pretty tough to balance (and would require the game to be a lot more transparent about damage types than it is). Harrow fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 20:39
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I mean, sure, why not. Bad Breath could be the LB3, for example, it doesn't have to be an ability that slaps the boss with every status which it is probably programmed to be immune to anyways.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:42
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SettingSun posted:I also think that tanks have the smallest design space. All three tanks do the exact same thing just in variably flashy ways. This is a necessity of the design and I think a 4th tank no matter the name on its face would feel samey. Harrow posted:I think they'd probably still need to use MP, though I'm sure people would say it "doesn't make sense." That's a consideration that would be pretty necessary for balance. Even in WoW, classes that don't normally use mana (like Monks) switch to having a mana bar when they use their healing spec. There's no way you'd be able to have a healing class that wasn't limited by MP. I think the "All Healers Use Mana" design was more so that they can make healer specific fight mechanics/abilities(E.G. Innervate) without needing a special exception for Class Y who uses Chocolate Fudge instead.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:46
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macfam posted:All this talk about blue mages and tanks when what you really should think about is the puppetmaster job. You use your puppet to do all the tanking, fooling enemies with your flawless performance. A pet using job for every role, this is the vision of the future we should all strive for. Yeah, I was thinking a pet tank would be cool, though I'd go with Beastmaster as the class. Mostly based on their FFTA aesthetic, because Nu Mou are cool and I wanna bash enemies with bells. I don't really get the hype for Geomancer because in both V and TA2 they seemed like trash garbage to me. Must've had a stronger showing in some other game, I guess.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:46
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Kurieg posted:I think the "All Healers Use Mana" design was more so that they can make healer specific fight mechanics/abilities(E.G. Innervate) without needing a special exception for Class Y who uses Chocolate Fudge instead. Yeah, though I think it's also probably important that all of the healers have a very similar (though ideally identical) core resource to balance around. To use an FFXIV example, I'm not sure how you'd balance a healer who uses TP versus a healer who uses MP unless their TP worked functionally the same as MP somehow. It seems like an unnecessary complicating variable.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:47
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Note Block posted:This belongs in a museum. No, that's this one. https://ffxiv.eorzeacollection.com/glamour/it-belongs-in-a-museum
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Jun 28, 2017 20:49
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nothing you said is wrong, but i think "akh morn" is literally "death flare" in meracydian or something
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Jun 28, 2017 20:52
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Reiterpallasch posted:nothing you said is wrong, but i think "akh morn" is literally "death flare" in meracydian or something In dragonspeak. Meracydia is just a continent to the south where a lot of dragons live.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:54
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Reiterpallasch posted:nothing you said is wrong, but i think "akh morn" is literally "death flare" in meracydian or something Ah, well, there we have it. Then it is just literally Akh Morn, even if it doesn't work exactly the same way (if only because it isn't spammable).
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Jun 28, 2017 20:59
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Reiterpallasch posted:nothing you said is wrong, but i think "akh morn" is literally "death flare" in meracydian or something Circle of death I think.
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Jun 28, 2017 21:01
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Imagine though, a Blue Mage that needs to get hit with spells to learn them. You pull up for your EX Roulette and there he is, the BLU that has learned 0 spells.
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Jun 28, 2017 21:04
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lokipunk posted:Imagine though, a Blue Mage that needs to get hit with spells to learn them. You pull up for your EX Roulette and there he is, the BLU that has learned 0 spells. Nobody I run into in roulettes can avoid getting hit by spells.
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Jun 28, 2017 21:06
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lokipunk posted:Imagine though, a Blue Mage that needs to get hit with spells to learn them. You pull up for your EX Roulette and there he is, the BLU that has learned 0 spells. "I never did my rez spell quest" and "I never did the water totem quest" were things in WoW for a good while.
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Jun 28, 2017 21:07
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Hell, that's hypothetically still possible in FFXIV. Imagine getting a tank that never did any of his job quests.
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Jun 28, 2017 21:10
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Oxyclean posted:"I never did my rez spell quest" and "I never did the water totem quest" were things in WoW for a good while. tbf water totem quest was a pain in the rear end
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Jun 28, 2017 21:10
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Oxyclean posted:"I never did my rez spell quest" and "I never did the water totem quest" were things in WoW for a good while. Or the druid that can't rez you because prior to Cataclysm their only rez was the instant cast one, usable in combat, on a 20 minute cooldown.
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Jun 28, 2017 21:10
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Oxyclean posted:"I never did my rez spell quest" and "I never did the water totem quest" were things in WoW for a good while. The tank stance quests for Warriors was like level 10 and people didn't have it. Kurieg posted:Or the druid that can't rez you because prior to Cataclysm their only rez was the instant cast one, usable in combat, on a 20 minute cooldown. Didn't you also need a reagent for it?
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Jun 28, 2017 21:10
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Harrow posted:Hell, that's hypothetically still possible in FFXIV. Imagine getting a DRK tank that never did any of his job quests. Had a drk last night in a trial roulette I told to turn off grit cause I was tanking. He does it then proceeds to only do 123 power slash. I ask him to use soul eater and he says "It's not in my rotation" ????
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Jun 28, 2017 21:11
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Kurieg posted:Or the druid that can't rez you because prior to Cataclysm their only rez was the instant cast one, usable in combat, on a 20 minute cooldown. I mained a resto druid through Wrath. You wouldn't believe how many groups turned me down for running dungeons because of this.
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Jun 28, 2017 21:11
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Out of curiosity I looked to see what would happen if you leveled White Mage to 70 and didn't do any job quests after unlocking it. You'd be missing: Regen, Cure III, Holy, Benediction, Asylum, Stone III, Assize, Aero III, Tetragrammaton, and Plenary Indulgence. Like yeah, you could still do your job without those, but man are you gonna have to work harder.
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Jun 28, 2017 21:12
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Harrow posted:Out of curiosity I looked to see what would happen if you leveled White Mage to 70 and didn't do any job quests after unlocking it. You'd be missing: Regen, Cure III, Holy, Benediction, Asylum, Stone III, Assize, Aero III, Tetragrammaton, and Plenary Indulgence. Like yeah, you could still do your job without those, but man are you gonna have to work harder. I forgot about my job quests and didn't grab regen until level 42 
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Jun 28, 2017 21:15
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Leofish posted:Didn't you also need a reagent for it? Yes. And the convenience buffs all used reagents. Including the Paladin's greater blessings which you needed to cast once for every class in the group.
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Jun 28, 2017 21:16
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Holyshoot posted:tbf water totem quest was a pain in the rear end It was. It was also not very useful, at least, not until you raided and poison/disease cleansing were godsends in ZG. Leofish posted:The tank stance quests for Warriors was like level 10 and people didn't have it. Vanilla Warrior was a pain in the rear end. I remember the Berserk stance quest at 30 being incredibly tough. Whirlwind Axe was a pain to get too, I remember having help from a guildy.
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Jun 28, 2017 21:17
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Kurieg posted:Yes. And the convenience buffs all used reagents. Including the Paladin's greater blessings which you needed to cast once for every class in the group. And class quests have come back in the newest expansion. No abilities tied to them, thankfully, but there are still some very questionable design choices. Alliance death knights, for example, have to go into Horde starting zones three separate times - and twice to the front gate of Horde capitals. My poor gnome died many, many times on Orgrimmar's front porch because of the first death knight campaign quest. The absence of a faction divide is something I didn't realize how much I'd appreciate until I realized it wasn't a thing in this game.
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Jun 28, 2017 21:23
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Classic WoW, much like pre-ARR FFXIV is a wild ride to read about and really makes me question how much people really want things like official classic servers and such.
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Jun 28, 2017 21:31
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