|
bull3964 posted:Gas tax revenue needs to be reclaimed somewhere. It's inevitable. Yeah.. But no one likes paying taxes, and are always going to bitch about it 
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 15:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 06:44 |
|
|
stevewm posted:The state of Indiana just introduced additional yearly fees that EV and hybrid owners will have to pay, in addition to the already high registration fees. $150 for pure EVs, $50 for hybrids, to be adjusted (raised) every 5 years. And also an additional $15 for all vehicles on top of that. I know CA limits the time you can operate an out of state registered vehicle because of their emissions and inspection requirements. Is Indiana like that? Or is it one of those "rear wheel replaced with a cinder block, passenger side caved in, driver's door replaced with zip tied rebar - still roadworthy" states? If the latter, would people just register their vehicles out of state?
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:06
|
|
|
Every state I've lived in gives you 30-60 days to register a vehicle after you move to the state.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:14
|
|
|
bull3964 posted:Gas tax revenue needs to be reclaimed somewhere. It's inevitable.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:24
|
|
|
Finger Prince posted:I know CA limits the time you can operate an out of state registered vehicle because of their emissions and inspection requirements. Is Indiana like that? Or is it one of those "rear wheel replaced with a cinder block, passenger side caved in, driver's door replaced with zip tied rebar - still roadworthy" states? If the latter, would people just register their vehicles out of state? I live in a area near the Ohio border. It was pretty common around here if you had relatives that lived in Ohio, to register your vehicle in Ohio using their address. As Ohio's registration fees are fixed and cheaper than Indiana's. They started cracking down on this some time ago though. Though Ohio does require emissions inspections. Indiana has no inspections, emissions or otherwise. If it has a valid VIN, and you can prove valid insurance on it, you can register it. stevewm fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Jun 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 17:14
|
|
|
bull3964 posted:Gas tax revenue needs to be reclaimed somewhere. It's inevitable. I'm pretty sure $150/yr to *state* gas taxes is like more than 15k miles per year though. It's a gently caress you.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 04:42
|
|
|
call to action posted:I'm pretty sure $150/yr to *state* gas taxes is like more than 15k miles per year though. It's a gently caress you. California gas tax is currently 58.83 cents per gallon including excise taxes and local taxes. You're looking at 30 cents for pure state tax. $150 is only 255 gallons worth of 58.83 and 500 at 30. It's not a gently caress you. It's not enough to maintain our road system. I'm all in with ev, but roads aren't free and maintaining them isn't cheap. We need to fund it somehow.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 04:49
|
|
|
Road maintenance should be paid for by the people that damage them, large trucks. Ensuring that EVs pay every last dime of their "fair share" while trucks get essentially a free ride (considering they cause over 99 percent of damage to roads) seems like an odd set of priorities, especially considering the knock on benefits of lower air and sound pollution in the area. I'm OK with paying a small EV fee in Colorado since they heavily subsidized my purchase, but $150 to a state like Indiana would piss me off. And 500 gallons of fuel would get me 24 thousand loving miles in a 48mpg Prius. The *state* tax, once again, is what you should be looking at as the tax is levied by the state and benefits the state. Taxing me like I drive 24k miles a year in my Leaf is a gently caress you call to action fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Jun 29, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 04:52
|
|
|
Everyone thinks Norway is a tax crazy Soviet state, but even USA taxes just as much, just not in a well thought out way.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 12:00
|
|
|
eyebeem posted:It's not a gently caress you. It's not enough to maintain our road system. I'm all in with ev, but roads aren't free and maintaining them isn't cheap. We need to fund it somehow. I'm the motorcyclin' rear end in a top hat EV haver with my Zero FXS, and it gets charged $200 a year from GA as an EV fee. GA's gas tax is about $0.3120 per gallon which, at $200 is approximately 641 gallons of gas. A gas supermoto bike gets, what, 45-50 mpg, so we're looking at 28k miles per year usage for me to equally pay the tax. Calculated another way, I'm getting charged the same as a 23mpg car driven 15k mikes per year, but on a vehicle that weighs less than 500 lbs with my lard-ridden rear end on it. Flat-rate taxes are a brutally stupid way to implement a charge for an issue created by usage, because it ends up indirectly creating incentives for other transportation methods. Usage taxes based on odometer reads and vehicle weight makes more sense in the long run, as it's a fair approximation of road damage. When I lived in PA they did actually levy a tax on trucks based on the GVWR which I thought was a really cool idea, until the DMV guy told me that the Ford Excursion doesn't pay these taxes as it's classified as a "station wagon" while the Ford Ranger I was driving classified as a full-size truck.  Plus the added benefit is we'd see SUVs drop off the face of the earth while carbon fiber cars rule the roost, and that is a pretty bad-rear end future.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 12:22
|
|
|
Ripoff posted:I'm the motorcyclin' rear end in a top hat EV haver with my Zero FXS, and it gets charged $200 a year from GA as an EV fee. GA's gas tax is about $0.3120 per gallon which, at $200 is approximately 641 gallons of gas. A gas supermoto bike gets, what, 45-50 mpg, so we're looking at 28k miles per year usage for me to equally pay the tax. Calculated another way, I'm getting charged the same as a 23mpg car driven 15k mikes per year, but on a vehicle that weighs less than 500 lbs with my lard-ridden rear end on it. Yeah, but most people aren't driving a 50mpg bike. If they were, you could expect the gas tax to be much higher. Guess what the average MPG is for passenger vehicles, 23 mpg..
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 14:21
|
|
|
call to action posted:Road maintenance should be paid for by the people that damage them, large trucks. Commercial trucks pay taxes out the nose, and their operation is necessary for business as we know it. Private passenger vehicles may be lighter but their impact on the highway system is far from zero. A $150 annual road use fee for EV does not seem overbearing to me.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 14:29
|
|
|
GM redesigned their "My Chevrolet" website recently and added some additional stats that it pulls from OnStar.. One of which is the lifetime counter for gallons of gas used. Since getting my 2017 Volt in December I have used 64 gallons of gas, with 2632 miles of gas driving (8330 miles total, 5,698 on electric) for a lifetime average of 41.2MPG on gas only. This seems a bit lower than I expected.. My live MPG display when on gas varies between 40 and 50mpg. However I know for a fact I have put gas in the car 8 times... 7 of those where a "full tank" and the other time was approx half a tank. Given the Volt has a 8.9 gallon capacity, this does work out to around 64 gallons. My old car (Fusion 4cyl) which averaged slightly under 25mpg needed filled nearly once a week.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 15:08
|
|
|
bull3964 posted:Yeah, but most people aren't driving a 50mpg bike. If they were, you could expect the gas tax to be much higher. Yeah, many of them are. My FJ-09 is a hoon machine and I average 49.2MPG. And EVs, at least for now, tend to be more comparable to Prius' than 23MPG Mustangs. angryrobots posted:Commercial trucks pay taxes out the nose, and their operation is necessary for business as we know it. Private passenger vehicles may be lighter but their impact on the highway system is far from zero. They don't pay enough tax, that's my point. They quite literally do over 99% of damage to roads, I can cite the DOT/NHTSA study if you'd like. The tax they pay should cover 99% of road damage, with the costs passed down to consumers. This comes much closer to a truly free market as the people making us repair the roads (the people that buy things that require truck transport) are now paying for them, instead of shifting the cost to eco car drivers. Like, I know you don't want or feel that it should be true, but a 40 ton truck does about 10,000x the damage to road surfaces as a passenger car... ASSUMING it's not overloaded, which means that the 99% figure is actually a drastic understatement! I've already proven the tax is overbearing, it's equivalent to running a Prius for 24k miles per year with a car that physically could never do that many miles. call to action fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Jun 29, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 15:33
|
|
|
stevewm posted:GM redesigned their "My Chevrolet" website recently and added some additional stats that it pulls from OnStar.. One of which is the lifetime counter for gallons of gas used. They also have a estimated gas saved based on electric miles driven. Our volt has nearly the same total miles but only 29 gallons of gas used. Estimated fuel saved is 300 gallons.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 16:14
|
|
|
A quick Google search turned up this chart which suggests that a 9-ton rig does about 400x the damage as your average car. Damage is nonlinear with vehicle weight.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 16:16
|
|
|
Perhaps the road should be funded by a progressive income tax instead of gas taxes or vehicle taxes that are expensive for poor people and negligible for the rich.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 16:26
|
|
|
call to action posted:Yeah, many of them are. My FJ-09 is a hoon machine and I average 49.2MPG. And EVs, at least for now, tend to be more comparable to Prius' than 23MPG Mustangs. Trucks do cause road damage. However, many cities have serious problems in that beyond road damage the cost to expand and build new roads would consume the normal available road budget just from the influx of people every year. Add in people living farther from their jobs due to rising costs of housing and you have a serious problem with just meeting capacity.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 16:45
|
|
|
Taxes go to more items than road surface repair. They also find signage maintenance, bridge corrosion mitigation, line painting, traffic signal improvements, traffic studies, winter weather maintenance, and lighting. None of those things are affected by the weight of a vehicle. That's assuming the taxes are going directly to the roads at all and aren't part of the general budget. We can debate usage of transportation derived revenue being used in the general budget all we want, but the reality of the situation is tax on transportation often times gets funneled other places and there are budget shortfalls everywhere. Paying the same amount a year in taxes as the average vehicle on the road isn't a huge burden. You can be both for wanting other vehicles to pay more due to their impact and recognize that you need to pay as well. EVERYONE is underpaying. It's not like paying a Netflix level of subscription for use of the entire public road system is a gigantic cost. bull3964 fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Jun 29, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 16:48
|
|
|
To me it just sounds like the Indiana tax is premature. Sure everyone knows it's coming eventually, but until EVs make up a significant number of vehicles sold in the state, they should hold off on implementation. Get the hook in before you start charging. I suppose you could look at it another way, by putting the tax on when it affects a tiny minority of road users, you don't risk the political backlash of if you tried it when say 30% of your motorists are affected. That way everyone knows what they're getting into up front, and if EVs keep selling post tax, it proves the momentum is there. Admittedly the above opinion completely ignores politicians prioritizing reelection over sound policy and backroom lobbying by the auto industry in Indiana.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 17:04
|
|
|
Thoughts on picking up an off-lease Nissan Leaf? I'm tired of maintenance/repair costs on my BMW wagon, and with only a 12 mile round-trip commute, I'm not too worried about range. 2014 or 2015 models with 20k miles seem to be going for around $10k, which seems like a pretty good deal when compared to a Prius or similar.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 18:16
|
|
|
If you truly don't expect to need any real range out of it, I'd do it. The batteries do degrade faster on the Leaf than on pretty much every other EV / hybrid, but even an utterly trashed battery would be able to do a 12 mile round trip a few times between charges (let alone with nightly level 1 or level 2 charging).
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 18:33
|
|
|
rhombus posted:Thoughts on picking up an off-lease Nissan Leaf? I'm tired of maintenance/repair costs on my BMW wagon, and with only a 12 mile round-trip commute, I'm not too worried about range. 2014 or 2015 models with 20k miles seem to be going for around $10k, which seems like a pretty good deal when compared to a Prius or similar. If you can charge at home, go for it. It's an excellent commut-o-matic. If not, you might want to scout for newer ones, but it will probably be fine. (A proper installed charger is better than a regular plug btw, even if charge speed is the same ) I'd also recommend scouting for one with the Bose stereo system, it's pretty good.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 18:36
|
|
|
TooMuchAbstraction posted:A quick Google search turned up this chart which suggests that a 9-ton rig does about 400x the damage as your average car. Damage is nonlinear with vehicle weight. It's not just nonlinear. According to some of the traffic engineers here, damage scales with the fourth power of the vehicle's weight. So a vehicle that's twice as heavy does 16 times as much damage to the road. A vehicle that's ten times as heavy, like say a 40000 pound truck compared to a 4000 pound car, does 10^4 = 10,000 times as much damage. Similarly, it would take 4,096 500-pound motorcycles to equal the damage caused by a single passenger car, so basically motorcycles should have to pay no taxes at all.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 18:41
|
|
|
Sagebrush posted:It's not just nonlinear. According to some of the traffic engineers here, damage scales with the fourth power of the vehicle's weight. So a vehicle that's twice as heavy does 16 times as much damage to the road. A vehicle that's ten times as heavy, like say a 40000 pound truck compared to a 4000 pound car, does 10^4 = 10,000 times as much damage. It has a lot more to do with axle weight and weight distribution over those axles than it does gross weight.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 18:46
|
|
|
Seems like us EV owners already got a ton of breaks and should be fine paying our fair share.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 19:15
|
|
|
blugu64 posted:Seems like us EV owners already got a ton of breaks and should be fine paying our fair share. But.... but.... taxes!
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 19:53
|
|
|
IOwnCalculus posted:If you truly don't expect to need any real range out of it, I'd do it. The batteries do degrade faster on the Leaf than on pretty much every other EV / hybrid, but even an utterly trashed battery would be able to do a 12 mile round trip a few times between charges (let alone with nightly level 1 or level 2 charging). I've read that there were issues but all 2014+ models should have decent batteries. And Nissan will replace the batteries if they degrade past a certain point under an 8 year, 100k mile warranty. rhombus fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Jun 29, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 19:55
|
|
|
blugu64 posted:fair share quote:24k miles per year 
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 19:57
|
|
|
Did Nissan ever get around to putting active cooling in the battery pack to help resolve the degradation problem? Or are they still left to bake relying only on passive cooling?
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 19:58
|
|
|
stevewm posted:Did Nissan ever get around to putting active cooling in the battery pack to help resolve the degradation problem? Or are they still left to bake relying only on passive cooling?
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 20:10
|
|
|
That reminds me, my 2011 Leaf is about to lose a fifth bar, I really should call Nissan and schedule a battery replacement. Also they need to hurry up finish the 2018 so I can upgrade.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 20:52
|
|
|
rhombus posted:Thoughts on picking up an off-lease Nissan Leaf? I'm tired of maintenance/repair costs on my BMW wagon, and with only a 12 mile round-trip commute, I'm not too worried about range. 2014 or 2015 models with 20k miles seem to be going for around $10k, which seems like a pretty good deal when compared to a Prius or similar.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 21:11
|
|
|
Vitamin J posted:I have put about 14,000 miles on my used Leaf since I bought it in January. The only maintenance I've done is change the 12v battery. I should have waited and bought this summer, mine is a '13, I could get a '15 for the same money now. It's still a bargain. Currently it's out to a customer from Turo paying this month's loan payment. drat, what keeps you driving so much? How has your experience been with Turo? I'm afraid of customers damaging my car if I put it up.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 21:21
|
|
|
duz posted:That reminds me, my 2011 Leaf is about to lose a fifth bar, I really should call Nissan and schedule a battery replacement. Also they need to hurry up finish the 2018 so I can upgrade. What's your current range at a full charge now?
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 21:30
|
|
|
rhombus posted:I've read that there were issues but all 2014+ models should have decent batteries. And Nissan will replace the batteries if they degrade past a certain point under an 8 year, 100k mile warranty. They degrade harder in AZ than anywhere else, and my commute is long enough that it wouldn't be able to make the round trip without charging by the end of a 3yr lease. And no, my office won't even give me a L1 plug outside.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 21:42
|
|
|
Sagebrush posted:It's not just nonlinear. According to some of the traffic engineers here, damage scales with the fourth power of the vehicle's weight. So a vehicle that's twice as heavy does 16 times as much damage to the road. A vehicle that's ten times as heavy, like say a 40000 pound truck compared to a 4000 pound car, does 10^4 = 10,000 times as much damage. Motorcycle road tax should be equal to whatever it costs to send someone to the farthest point in your county from the DOT office with a shovel.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 22:41
|
|
|
Michael Scott posted:drat, what keeps you driving so much? Turo has been good but I've only had 2 renters so far. I don't really have an emotional attachment to the Leaf so it doesn't bother me, but they do have a pretty high deductible.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 23:41
|
|
|
Looks like the Model 3 goes into production on Friday https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jul/03/elon-musk-tesla-model-3-mass-market-electric-car-production-line-two-weeks-early
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2017 11:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 06:44 |
|
|
To the uninitiated that seems like quite the production ramp. They're at something like 25,000 S+X per quarter now, right? Does anyone know how the expected ramp for the 3 compares to other models from the major manufacturers?
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2017 15:38
|
|