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TheScott2K posted:They had a decent bit of misdirection with those two dudes early in the movie. I was surprised it was Valeris the first time. It's amazing how well competent filmmaking can overcome issues like predictable character turns. I showed it to my bf the other night for the first time and he called it for Valeris immediately. It was also the first time I'd watched it since I was a little little kid in the theater: why did everyone and their mom know about the conspiracy? When Kirk got beamed away before he could hear the Klingon prison warden give the Bond villain "before I kill you I'll tell you everything" speech (which was a funny reversal, I'll give it that) there are so many unanswered questions. Why does some backwater warden know the whole conspiracy, and is he about to lay it out in front of like 100 witnesses in the search party (after he killed that changeling so there would be no witnesses to Kirk's execution), or did everyone working at that prison already know? Does everyone know? It was also funny that the movie accidentally explained why cloaking devices don't make any sense and shouldn't work, but I guess everyone just forgot to look for cloaked ships' engine exhaust after that and it's never brought up again in Star Trek.
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Jun 30, 2017 06:53
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Actually the emissions thing comes up like every time they fight a cloaked enemy. There's always some particle like tachyons or whatever that they can track once they know to look for it. It's like you don't even remember Data being all  and owning Romulan Tasha Yar. Also I don't think most Trek ships really have "exhaust" as such. Maybe at impulse, but Warp travel is basically a form of warping space time by way of interdimensiomal travel (or whatever) and bears no resemblance to "propulsion" or "physics" as we understand those things. Also Romulan ships are powered by miniature black holes, so probably don't emit much conventional matter. Not sure what the Klingons use though, but Rommy cloaks are definitely supposed to be better.
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Jun 30, 2017 07:08
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VitalSigns posted:I showed it to my bf the other night for the first time and he called it for Valeris immediately. The warden was in on it to some degree. Chang probably told him to expect high-profile Federation prisoners, and to make sure that they were conveniently "killed while trying to escape". That way, they got rid of Kirk and Bones, who were troublesome because they were figuring out what was really happening.
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Jun 30, 2017 07:11
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VitalSigns posted:It was also funny that the movie accidentally explained why cloaking devices don't make any sense and shouldn't work, but I guess everyone just forgot to look for cloaked ships' engine exhaust after that and it's never brought up again in Star Trek. The impulse exhaust is like the jet exhaust on stealth fighters so in principle they could "wash" it in a similar manner, by forcing (relatively) colder gas into the exhaust stream to cool and diffuse it below the threshold of sensor detection. This is a rare case of Star Trek tech not being  , the technique is the same whether the engine exhaust is burned hydrocarbons or superheated plasma or jelly donuts.
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Jun 30, 2017 10:04
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I vaguely remember the Mass Effect codex going into more detail about that universe's stealth systems, in particular explaining that just masking engine exhaust wouldn't be enough, you'd also have to hide the heat signature of the entire ship, otherwise you could be detected pretty much instantly even by the simplest sensor equipment. So you'd actually risk cooking your crew alive if you ran too long in stealth mode because the system is preventing any heat from radiating properly.
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Jun 30, 2017 10:18
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Duckbag posted:I think it's something that was amplified by the iconic episodes that ran forever on syndication. The Man Trap, Devil in the Dark, Arena, the Changeling, and, especially, The Apple are all legendary for their body counts and also happen to be some of the better remembered episodes. Red shirt syndrome is very real, but people take it too literally. About half the episodes have some nothing character getting killed for cheap drama, and some episodes really skew the average, but plenty of episodes have a random crewman who doesn't get killed (like the blue shirt who's just sort of there in City on the Edge of Forever). Also, despite the name, most redshirts don't actually wear red shirts. I suspect Kirk being perceived as a horn dog has a lot to do with how the audience thinks of itself also. It's displacing ones own desires onto his fictional character to make them more acceptable. I mean regardless of whether Kirk is actually chasing a skirt or not, and he usually is not, there's a reason why they had Bill Theiss whip up ridiculous sexy outfits like in "What Are Little Girls Made Of" or "Cloud Minders" or what have you -- it's to get you, the viewer, to tune in, you horn dog you. Also, if by teaching green chick to kiss, you're referring to Gamesters of Triskelion, Kirk doesn't do that because he is just cruising for space pussy. He and his crew are imprisoned and he is deeply worried that they will be killed (and that Uhura will be raped). He is seducing his guard with the goal of escaping prison -- any horniness here is non-diegetic which is a good example of what I mean.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:13
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:The warden was in on it to some degree. Chang probably told him to expect high-profile Federation prisoners, and to make sure that they were conveniently "killed while trying to escape". That way, they got rid of Kirk and Bones, who were troublesome because they were figuring out what was really happening. Yeah sure the weird part was he was ready to reveal the conspiracy and the identity of a top conspirator in front of a couple dozen witnesses, even though he murdered the changeling so there would be "no witnesses". Unless all the prison guards already knew but then like how many people were in on this thing
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Jun 30, 2017 11:18
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skasion posted:I suspect Kirk being perceived as a horn dog has a lot to do with how the audience thinks of itself also. It's displacing ones own desires onto his fictional character to make them more acceptable. I mean regardless of whether Kirk is actually chasing a skirt or not, and he usually is not, there's a reason why they had Bill Theiss whip up ridiculous sexy outfits like in "What Are Little Girls Made Of" or "Cloud Minders" or what have you -- it's to get you, the viewer, to tune in, you horn dog you. Oh come on, Triskelion isn't even the only time he does the whole "let me teach you about love" thing. He doesn't mack on anyone in The Apple, but there's still a few lines and I think he does it in at least one of the robot episodes besides Methuselah. Dude may not have been a total horn dog (though he is, canonically, half nice guy/half rape monster), but he certainly was no stranger to "romance."
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Jun 30, 2017 12:21
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skasion posted:I suspect Kirk being perceived as a horn dog has a lot to do with how the audience thinks of itself also. It's displacing ones own desires onto his fictional character to make them more acceptable. I mean regardless of whether Kirk is actually chasing a skirt or not, and he usually is not, there's a reason why they had Bill Theiss whip up ridiculous sexy outfits like in "What Are Little Girls Made Of" or "Cloud Minders" or what have you -- it's to get you, the viewer, to tune in, you horn dog you. 
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Jun 30, 2017 13:03
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McSpanky posted:The impulse exhaust is like the jet exhaust on stealth fighters so in principle they could "wash" it in a similar manner, by forcing (relatively) colder gas into the exhaust stream to cool and diffuse it below the threshold of sensor detection. This is a rare case of Star Trek tech not being You'd still be able to detect the physical presence of gasses in the vacuum, though.
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Jun 30, 2017 13:12
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MikeJF posted:You'd still be able to detect the physical presence of gasses in the vacuum, though. Maybe they can be disassembled like dirty dishes or holodeck crust
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Jun 30, 2017 13:20
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I watched Beyond again last night and am still in love with the design of the Yorktown. Also the "classical" music joke gets me every time.
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Jun 30, 2017 15:14
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I love the whole music sequence because it's just pure Star Trek bullshit mixed with the Enterprise doing a really dumb thing for really dumb Star Trek reasons. Beyond is good.
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Jun 30, 2017 15:22
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah sure the weird part was he was ready to reveal the conspiracy and the identity of a top conspirator in front of a couple dozen witnesses, even though he murdered the changeling so there would be "no witnesses". Unless all the prison guards already knew but then like how many people were in on this thing True. It might be that the warden figured that prison officials on Rura Penthe wouldn't have the influence or give enough of a drat to spill the beans. They don't care about intergalactic conspiracies; their job was to just off Kirk and Bones so that the boss, Chang, would be happy.
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Jun 30, 2017 16:39
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If that warden was a super smooth operator he wouldn't be living on Rura Penthe. Chang needed him because he is the boss there but that doesn't make him smart enough not to brag to his goons.
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Jun 30, 2017 16:44
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I feel like Beyond just came and went without leaving much of an impact on anyone. You don't even see much discussion of it among trekkies. Which is odd because it's the best Star Trek movie in at least 20 years.
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Jun 30, 2017 16:47
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I watched the first season of Voyager and started to get weirded out by their nonsense phenomenon-of-the-week plots like the one where the crew started "devolving" into animals
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Jun 30, 2017 16:48
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So, my memory is shot, so this is probably me overlapping poo poo, but the idea that every time they want to show why it's bad when Vulcans don't control their emotions, the only two possible outcomes are homicidal rage or rape, is more or less correct right?
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Jun 30, 2017 16:58
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Pakled posted:I feel like Beyond just came and went without leaving much of an impact on anyone. You don't even see much discussion of it among trekkies. Which is odd because it's the best Star Trek movie in at least 20 years. It suffered from Watch Dogs 2 syndrome, pre-tainted by association to the previous bad installment. Orv posted:So, my memory is shot, so this is probably me overlapping poo poo, but the idea that every time they want to show why it's bad when Vulcans don't control their emotions, the only two possible outcomes are homicidal rage or rape, is more or less correct right? Sarek breaks down crying, so I guess add in sadness too.
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Jun 30, 2017 16:59
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That's a disease doing that though, I think every time Vulcans are shown rationally and willingly letting themselves feel emotions it always goes those two kinds of bad.
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Jun 30, 2017 17:04
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That time Spock and McCoy got trapped in an ice age and Spock became a pre-Surak Vulcan, he almost stranded them there because all he wanted to do was eat red meat and gently caress his new girlfriend. E: he got mad at McCoy too for bugging him to leave, but the the root problem was Spock getting caught up with hedonism VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Jun 30, 2017 |
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Jun 30, 2017 17:10
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galenanorth posted:I watched the first season of Voyager and started to get weirded out by their nonsense phenomenon-of-the-week plots like the one where the crew started "devolving" into animals 
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Jun 30, 2017 17:11
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Pakled posted:I feel like Beyond just came and went without leaving much of an impact on anyone. You don't even see much discussion of it among trekkies. Which is odd because it's the best Star Trek movie in at least 20 years. It was incredibly poorly marketed.
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Jun 30, 2017 17:12
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Orv posted:That's a disease doing that though, I think every time Vulcans are shown rationally and willingly letting themselves feel emotions it always goes those two kinds of bad. Old Spock in the first JJ Abrams Trek allows himself to feel grief and comes out of it okay.
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Jun 30, 2017 17:13
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Yeah, true enough. Maybe it's less Vulcan emotions and anything to do with psychics that's just rape central.
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Jun 30, 2017 17:24
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VitalSigns posted:That time Spock and McCoy got trapped in an ice age and Spock became a pre-Surak Vulcan, he almost stranded them there because all he wanted to do was eat red meat and gently caress his new girlfriend. My personal theory is that all Vulcans have Borderline Personality Disorder and created a society to function in spite of it. This would provide an actual rational explanation as to why it's bad for them to not take steps to address their base state.
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Jun 30, 2017 17:39
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MikeJF posted:It was incredibly poorly marketed. I want to elaborate on this. Star Trek Beyond came after Into Darkness, a terrible Trek film that, while it still made bucket loads of money, seemed to actively insult a large percentage (but not all) of the Trek fans at the time. Then you have the lead up where they were going to let one of the writers of Into Darkness (and most of the Bayformers films) direct the next movie (having never directed anything before, not even a commercial or tv episode). That eroded a lot of good will. Then he was kicked off the project, everyone celebrated, then it was announced that Simon Pegg (a legit Trekkie if ever there was one) was going to help write the new movie, everyone celebrated, then Justin Lin was announced as director. This is where the trailer of the making of movie would play the record scratch. A lot of nerds (myself included) hadn't watched any Fast and/or Furious movies. We didn't know that they had become great entertainment, we just saw Paramount release two movies worth of "This ain't your boring nerd star trek. This trek is extreme!" [kickflips hoverboard off Enterprise while slamming a mountain dew!!!] and a lot of people wrote Beyond off then and there. "Don't Worry," everyone said "Justin Lin is a good director, Simon Pegg is writing. It'll be good, you'll see!" There was some tentative good will because Pegg was releasing interviews showed off that he "got" Trek. And then Paramount released this as the first trailer. All that good will they were rebuilding, disappeared in a cloud of motorcycle exhaust. (One of the FX guys said they didn't have any shots of Yorktown or any really good space shots finished when the trailer was cut). Paramount, having only made Beyond because of the 50th anniversary anyway, threw up its hands, and decided to spend no money marketing it. And then it came out and was the best Star Trek thing since the end of DS9.
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Jun 30, 2017 17:43
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Xibanya posted:My personal theory is that all Vulcans have Borderline Personality Disorder and created a society to function in spite of it. This would provide an actual rational explanation as to why it's bad for them to not take steps to address their base state. Except, how are Romulans so calm? They're almost as coldly rational as the Vulcans, with presumably virtually the same brain physiology, without any apparent special dedication to emotional control. Seems to me, Vulcans' "base state" is really due to their total suppression of emotions. They're able to suppress emotions indefinitely, but it still gets bottled up, and if they stray too far from their trained suppression, then the dam breaks and it all comes out. Romulans take a more balanced approach.
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Jun 30, 2017 17:54
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eth0.n posted:Except, how are Romulans so calm? They're almost as coldly rational as the Vulcans, with presumably virtually the same brain physiology, without any apparent special dedication to emotional control. Vulcans suppress their emotions through an alien version of Buddhism, Romulans don't believe in that poo poo and have instead achieved a constant level of pissed-off.
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Jun 30, 2017 17:57
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Have you ever met a happy Romulan? Thought so.
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Jun 30, 2017 18:02
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Romulans range from mildly irritated to all out rage mode.
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Jun 30, 2017 18:04
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The only time we see a really happy Romulan, he is basically faking it (The Defector) and they do have one other emotional state: psychopathic glee. Which amusingly enough only shows up on two Tal Shiar operatives. Coincidentally, Tal Shiar > Obsidian Order. 
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Jun 30, 2017 18:18
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Vulcans did it to themselves and a Vulcan raised without Vulcan practices will just be a pissy human with super strength and pointy ears alternately, Romulans use the Hulk method of "that's my secret..."
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Jun 30, 2017 18:23
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Orv posted:The only time we see a really happy Romulan, he is basically faking it (The Defector) and they do have one other emotional state: psychopathic glee. Which amusingly enough only shows up on two Tal Shiar operatives. Well yeah, the Tal Shiar is like the KGB or CIA and can actually do things effectively and secretly, the Obsidian Order is more like the SS - they barely hide their intentions and murder openly.
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Jun 30, 2017 18:25
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eth0.n posted:Except, how are Romulans so calm? They're almost as coldly rational as the Vulcans, with presumably virtually the same brain physiology, without any apparent special dedication to emotional control. You ever met someone with BPD? They can outwardly seem just as chill as anyone else, it's the turmoil inside that ultimately results in crazy. Alt theory: ironically the BPD got selected against in Romulan society but not in Vulcan society because Vulcans were better at hiding it long enough to have a kid.
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Jun 30, 2017 18:42
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eth0.n posted:Seems to me, Vulcans' "base state" is really due to their total suppression of emotions. They're able to suppress emotions indefinitely, but it still gets bottled up, and if they stray too far from their trained suppression, then the dam breaks and it all comes out. Romulans take a more balanced approach. Basically, the Vulcan / no emotions thing is yet another of Roddenberry's half-baked ideas that falls apart immediately once you spend more than two seconds thinking about it, and it's why Nimoy flat-out hated the kolinahr subplot in The Motion Picture (because it effectively dead-ended Spock as a character), and he was madder than hell hell when he found out the shot of Spock shedding a tear for V'Ger was cut. Lord knows that I'm more than happy to take shots at Nimoy as a writer and director, but there's so much of Star Trek's longevity that's owed to him for what he did in effectively taking ownership of the Vulcans and their culture.
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Jun 30, 2017 20:31
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Do Romcoms have super strength or mind melds or poo poo? They always seem to be humanoid baseline in all their "stats" when vulcans are all super powered.
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Jun 30, 2017 21:45
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Baronjutter posted:Do Romcoms have super strength or mind melds or poo poo? They always seem to be humanoid baseline in all their "stats" when vulcans are all super powered. Subterfuge +2 Treachery +4 They should be biologically similar enough to Vulcans to have their strength unless Vulcan strength is some tantric self-swallowing emotional byproduct
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Jun 30, 2017 21:49
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The Romulan subcommander in Trek '09 was significantly stronger than Kirk, for example.
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Jun 30, 2017 21:59
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I am almost done S7 of TNG... almost there, episode 20 with the Native American planet was some of the worst poo poo I have seen... keep in mind I fell asleep during Sub Rosa.
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Jun 30, 2017 22:22
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