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jivjov posted:I'm reading 12's desire to not regenerate differently than 10's. 10 wanted to keep on being 10 "I could do so much more" and "time lord victorious" and all; whereas 12 seems much more like "I just don't want to do this any more" and he'd be okay with keeling over dead if it means not having to keep traipsing though time and space with a new body for the umpteenth time. "I suddenly realised what the old proverb meant! 'To lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose.' It was all part of Rassilon's trap to find out who wanted immortality and put him out of the way. He knew very well that immortality was a curse. Not a blessing." 
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Jul 2, 2017 12:58
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Speaking of which, a little reminder that this is on next month for the Americans: Rifftrax: The Five Doctors. They hope a VOD version will come soon (I kickstarted the bastard thing, so it had better!) but if you can see it in the cinema, do!
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Jul 2, 2017 13:16
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Rewatching it, he's definitely landed at the end of The Tenth Planet. The first line we hear from David Bradley is "no I will not change"- he's facing regeneration for the first time and he doesn't want any part of it, just like Capaldi. The Tardis took him there on its own- as he said, it was trying to tell him something. The Doctor will end up affirming his own acceptance of regeneration from both ends of his timeline, which could be quite sweet if they do it right. Also rewatching it, Heather showing up is such a god drat rear end pull but it still came as close as this show has done in years to making me outright cry. Maybe it's because I totally called it, and maybe it's because at the end Bill says "I'll show you around" so Heather can go anywhere and Bill knows where to go, making them a legitimate couple even in that insane context.
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Jul 2, 2017 13:23
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Carbon dioxide posted:What surprised me is that in very recent interviews, such as in that latest fan show, Moffat admitted that last week saturday, they weren't even done filming yesterday's episode. They're filming the Christmas special right now aren't they? I imagine it was just the very last shot with the first Doctor that they held off on. edit: I'm not a cosplay person, but I can't wait to see what people do with Mondasian Cyberman costumes now since they are one that you could actually pull off quite well.
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Jul 2, 2017 13:37
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Has anyone listened to the first season of the Early Adventures? Bradley has got me on a First Doctor kick, and I'd be tempted to pick up some of the ones on sale if there are any particular highlights.
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Jul 2, 2017 14:00
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Caught up this morning. I'm not sure what to say. I enjoyed it - it felt quite understated as a finale as it was focused mainly on the characters and their personal struggles in an extreme situation instead of trying for either a huge spectacle or huge intricate puzzle box with poor emotional grounding, which the show has a habit of doing at times. The tone was pretty grim throughout and didn't just become action-schlock. I liked that it had continuity with elements of the previous stories in this series without hammering it in too hard. I was fine with Bill's quasi-puddle immortality - mainly because I think Cyber-Bill would have been too depressing an end to her arc for a show which is also aimed at family viewing & kids.* (Plus I liked Bill a lot, especially compared to Clara, and would have found it too depressing). The Heather reveal was a bit of a cop-out for the situation but they showed it had some kind of foreshadowing (she could also just go anywhere at any point in her episode & that clip of the tears). I felt like they struck the right balance here of doing fanservicey/decades-long continuity stuff where it added to the plot and enhanced it but didn't take it over and wasn't just cutesy. (Also I liked the brief cameos of the Cybus-era Cybermen. I've always really liked that design. The head is so good!) Also, everyone acted their socks off in it - it really helped sell the whole thing. I can't imagine a previous revival cast being that good as a whole. I really can't imagine Smith or Tennant doing Capaldi's big speech anywhere near as well. Maybe Eccleston could have but the lines weren't really in 9's character. Mackie was great and really emotive which really helped sell the contrast between how she felt & how she actually would have looked. I like to think 12, if no one else (maybe Nardole too), could see her as she was. Lucas was very good too and the two Masters were great to watch together. Not sure if I was a fan of 'definitely, actually killing the Master for real' this time - just killing Missy would be enough. I hope any future Master TV stories don't just walk back the whole arc though, so I guess, in a sense, the old Master is actually dead then. Also, the visual direction was really good. Between the cuts in Bill's small realisations of what she had become, Simm-Master's descent into death, and the desolate wasteland after the explosion - there was some great stuff in this one. Hopefully Christmas will be as good too.  It'd be nice if 12 managed to learn that Bill was alright in the end. (I think, maybe. The mechanism of becoming a puddle person seems to assume psychological continuity over physical continuity in terms of personal identity but whatever - maybe the puddle took out what was left of Bill's body or something  . Probably shouldn't think that much about it...)*Not that that fact excuses lazy or poor writing. I just think it means the show will, and should, generally aim towards optimistic resolutions even if it gets pretty dark at points (i.e. last episode & the Cyber-Bill stuff this week). Plus I just like to watch stuff that's not unendingly bleak every now and then.
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Jul 2, 2017 14:04
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Senor Tron posted:They're filming the Christmas special right now aren't they? I imagine it was just the very last shot with the first Doctor that they held off on. I only noticed last night that the bottom of the chest unit has the keyboard and drip built in. 
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Jul 2, 2017 14:09
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BioEnchanted posted:Bill and Heather break down in the cosmos, and Me and Clara run across them. The Doctor looks at his monitor and sees what looks like 2 girls waterskiing through space while being towed by a small diner. Oh, jeez, Moffat, now that's an Easter Egg. William (Bill) Hartnell's wife was called Heather.
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Jul 2, 2017 14:09
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jivjov posted:I'm reading 12's desire to not regenerate differently than 10's. 10 wanted to keep on being 10 "I could do so much more" and "time lord victorious" and all; whereas 12 seems much more like "I just don't want to do this any more" and he'd be okay with keeling over dead if it means not having to keep traipsing though time and space with a new body for the umpteenth time. Couldn't he just refuse to regenerate, like Master Saxon did?
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Jul 2, 2017 14:18
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This show is a sucker for making the best companions only last a single season 
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Jul 2, 2017 14:20
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re: Bill and Heather: I take it all back, Moff is a genius.  NPR Journalizard posted:Couldn't he just refuse to regenerate, like Master Saxon did? That is the implication, yes
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Jul 2, 2017 14:20
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Forktoss posted:Has anyone listened to the first season of the Early Adventures? Bradley has got me on a First Doctor kick, and I'd be tempted to pick up some of the ones on sale if there are any particular highlights. I'd honestly recommend the entire first series. Especially on sale like they are. The first one (the Voord one) was my least favorite, but it was still good. If you really only want one or two...Doctor's Tale and Ordinary Life.
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Jul 2, 2017 14:24
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Stabbatical posted:Also, everyone acted their socks off in it - it really helped sell the whole thing. I can't imagine a previous revival cast being that good as a whole. I really can't imagine Smith or Tennant doing Capaldi's big speech anywhere near as well. Maybe Eccleston could have but the lines weren't really in 9's character. Agreed. Not a slight on either Tennant's or Smith's performances (I think they're both brilliant actors and Tennant's Doctor in particular is often, I think, unfairly maligned), but they would have given it a different energy. Paul McGann is honestly the only person who's played the Doctor that I think could come close to the level of sheer pleading desperation for them to just get it that Capaldi was evoking, and I don't think he'd have done it better.
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Jul 2, 2017 14:30
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docbeard posted:Agreed. Not a slight on either Tennant's or Smith's performances (I think they're both brilliant actors and Tennant's Doctor in particular is often, I think, unfairly maligned), but they would have given it a different energy. Paul McGann is honestly the only person who's played the Doctor that I think could come close to the level of sheer pleading desperation for them to just get it that Capaldi was evoking, and I don't think he'd have done it better. Ooh, now I hope someone gets McGann to read that speech at a convention. (Or not. I honestly feel a bit bad for the actors getting handed lines they've never seen before and expected to deliver them in character)
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Jul 2, 2017 14:32
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Forktoss posted:Yesss that's the stuff I especially love the return to present-day (past!) Master going,"Fuccccck.... he did that while I was high-fiving? I've always got to showboat!" Forktoss posted:Has anyone listened to the first season of the Early Adventures? Bradley has got me on a First Doctor kick, and I'd be tempted to pick up some of the ones on sale if there are any particular highlights. I thought I picked that, the 2nd volume and the 3rd Doctor Adventures as part of today's special but I realized after I went to download it that I'd actually somehow ordered two copies of volume 2 instead  Trying to see if I can get Big Finish to fix it, ironically if I'd brought them separately their system would have warned me I already had it.Stabbatical posted:*Not that that fact excuses lazy or poor writing. I just think it means the show will, and should, generally aim towards optimistic resolutions even if it gets pretty dark at points (i.e. last episode & the Cyber-Bill stuff this week). Plus I just like to watch stuff that's not unendingly bleak every now and then. I fully agree with that mindset and I am relieved every time the show avoids falling into the trap of trying to be "mature" and make everything bleak forever. Moffat actually straight up said this on his post-episode interview thing, that he wanted to write the show as inspirational and optimistic and I appreciate that. It's part of the reason I think Day of the Doctor is so utterly magnificent. The whole (paraphrased) "Maybe it wasn't the best thing to do, but it was all we could do, we killed billions to save trillions... actually gently caress that let's just find some completely mad and disastrously ridiculous plan to save EVERYBODY!" and then they pulled it off  Davros1 posted:Oh, jeez, Moffat, now that's an Easter Egg. Goddamn that is sweet
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Jul 2, 2017 14:32
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jivjov posted:Ooh, now I hope someone gets McGann to read that speech at a convention. (Or not. I honestly feel a bit bad for the actors getting handed lines they've never seen before and expected to deliver them in character) Yeah, those are really hit or miss for me, but that's one I wouldn't mind hearing (and expect to).
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Jul 2, 2017 14:33
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Jerusalem posted:I thought I picked that, the 2nd volume and the 3rd Doctor Adventures as part of today's special but I realized after I went to download it that I'd actually somehow ordered two copies of volume 2 instead I'm sure they'll take care of you. When I bought UNIT Dominion it went on sale the next day, I asked nicely and they gave me a refund of the difference between my purchase price and the discount price. (Which I turned around and gave right back to them for a different audio)
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Jul 2, 2017 14:35
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2house2fly posted:those people have years to live, and it's not perfect but it's better than leaving them to the Cybermen and running away. Saving them entirely from the Cybermen would just be a stall anyway, really- everyone dies of something. You can't beat death- the tragedy of being a doctor. But do they have years? Or more like minutes. They got closer to the wormhole, meaning the lower decks sped up in time passage. All it takes is one cyberman to learn how to be explosion proof and he can gently caress poo poo up.
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Jul 2, 2017 14:38
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I watched some Eccleston episodes recently and realised he's really quite close to Capaldi, in the same way Smith is quite close to Tennant. It'd be hard to imagine some of 12's lines coming from 11 or 10, and vice versa, but I could hear a lot of 12 in 9 and then when I watched some more 12 I heard 9 in him too. I think Eccleston would ROCK that "i am an idiot" speech from Death In Heaven That would make the 12th Doctor an echo of both the real first Doctor and an echo of the first Doctor of the revival, the first Doctor much of the audience probably saw. Nicely done if intentional happyhippy posted:But do they have years? Or more like minutes. Nardole will think of something 2house2fly fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Jul 2, 2017 |
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Jul 2, 2017 14:48
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2house2fly posted:Missy knew her past self would shoot her in the back because she remembered doing it, so she did A Thing to prepare. The Master shows up whenever Chris Chibnall wants him to, right as rain. Or wants her to, depending on how marketable Michelle Gomez is. I really think the best solution is to have CyberMissy appear in a future Cyberman episode, preferably as a sudden reveal. Then she figures out a way to steal another body and we're off to the races.
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Jul 2, 2017 14:50
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jivjov posted:I'm sure they'll take care of you. When I bought UNIT Dominion it went on sale the next day, I asked nicely and they gave me a refund of the difference between my purchase price and the discount price. (Which I turned around and gave right back to them for a different audio) Big Finish's customer service is second to none. i.e. The release Quicksilver had a fault. The discs were printed with the art from Absolute Power on them. Without asking, they sent out replacements with the correct artwork on them. Original Sin had a typo on the spine, and they sent out corrected inserts, again, without prompting. I once had an order stolen from my mailbox, and they sent out replacements, free of charge. I may have to wait a little longer for a shipment, but I will not buy BF from anyone other than BF.
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Jul 2, 2017 14:52
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glowing-fish posted:Yeah, even without directly remembering it, the Master/Mistress is a little too smart to turn her back on herself. The Master has come back from being turned into ashes, I don't think that a little blast that leaves a pretty corpse is going to prevent a regeneration or from them just hopping up and walking away.
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Jul 2, 2017 14:55
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Davros1 posted:Big Finish's customer service is second to none. Hell, I've got an even more esoteric one...when I bought the Destiny of the Doctor complete series release, I noticed that the track ordering was screwed up. (It went 1, 10, 11, 2...etc). I pointed it out to them via a casual facebook message....its fixed now.
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Jul 2, 2017 14:58
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As an aside, I liked Missy's Sonic (Laser?) Umbrella.
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Jul 2, 2017 15:03
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jivjov posted:Hell, I've got an even more esoteric one...when I bought the Destiny of the Doctor complete series release, I noticed that the track ordering was screwed up. (It went 1, 10, 11, 2...etc). I pointed it out to them via a casual facebook message....its fixed now. When they released the extended extras to the 4th/7th Doctor Novel adaptations, it was one massive track that couldn't be burned to a single CD. I emailed them and asked if there was anyway to have a version split so I could burn them to several CDs. I few days later I got a reply telling me that they've done it!
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Jul 2, 2017 15:20
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Thinking about it more and more, I genuinely do not think the casting for Doctor Who (not just Capaldi, everyone this year) has ever been this good. And, while I hope I'm wrong, it may never be this good again.
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Jul 2, 2017 15:32
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NPR Journalizard posted:Couldn't he just refuse to regenerate, like Master Saxon did? Do we know he refused to regenerate? He's dying, not dead, after Missy stabbed him; surely he dies a few hours later and regenerates into Missy. Edit: whoops I don't read good! feedmegin fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Jul 2, 2017 |
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Jul 2, 2017 15:32
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I enjoyed The Doctor Falls for the most part. My only real complaint is the Mondasian Cybermen had their laser in the headlamp like the later ones, when in the original stories it's the big dish/lantern on their abdomen  . Also nth'ing that the old-model ones flying was just dumb, they should've had those arriving by the lifts while the modern ones Iron-Manned their way up through the floor.
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Jul 2, 2017 15:34
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feedmegin posted:Do we know he refused to regenerate? He's dying, not dead, after Missy stabbed him; surely he dies a few hours later and regenerates into Missy. It's referring to LAst of the Time Lords with 10, where the Master is shot and refuses to regenerate, just to stick it to 10, and leaving him alone once more.
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Jul 2, 2017 15:34
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feedmegin posted:Do we know he refused to regenerate? He's dying, not dead, after Missy stabbed him; surely he dies a few hours later and regenerates into Missy. Er, he's referring to The Last of the Time Lords, when Simm Master was shot and refused to regenerate the first time.
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Jul 2, 2017 15:35
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I wish they'd cobbled a few inbetween stage Cybermen together too (Tomb, Invasion, Silver Nemesis, etc), rather than jumping from cloth face to Lumic model
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Jul 2, 2017 15:47
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The_Doctor posted:I wish they'd cobbled a few inbetween stage Cybermen together too (Tomb, Invasion, Silver Nemesis, etc), rather than jumping from cloth face to Lumic model I imagine they had the other suits still in storage and cooking up the retro ones would've been an extra expense in an already expensive show. Not a fun answer, but likely the right one.
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Jul 2, 2017 15:58
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Holy poo poo that was good. I'm in it for the little character moments and there were so many.
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Jul 2, 2017 16:08
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jivjov posted:I'm reading 12's desire to not regenerate differently than 10's. 10 wanted to keep on being 10 "I could do so much more" and "time lord victorious" and all; whereas 12 seems much more like "I just don't want to do this any more" and he'd be okay with keeling over dead if it means not having to keep traipsing though time and space with a new body for the umpteenth time. Yeah, with 10 it was (as a pure Moffat retcon) his final regeneration (but even RTD knew the Doctor was nearing the end of his alloted lives when he wrote that). This is more "I"ve accepted who I am, I like who I am, my species habit of changing into different people is arbitrary and dumb and I'm over it." NPR Journalizard posted:Couldn't he just refuse to regenerate, like Master Saxon did? I don't understand why he can't just regenerate into himself like 10 did, or reuse this body like The Curator. Though he may not have that level of control yet without a Karn potion or a spare hand laying around. From 10's "I don't want to go" and 12's staving off the change, I get the feeling trying not to regenerate is the same as when you have to throw up but try really hard not to.
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Jul 2, 2017 16:09
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10 didn't regenerate into himself, he used a bit of energy to heal himself and then siphoned all the rest off into his spare hand before it could change his face. Respect The Lore
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Jul 2, 2017 16:17
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You know, I've got to point out that stabbed Master has got hours to live and is going to a place with a lot of advanced medical technology just sitting around. It's very likely that he didn't regenerate. Basically, unless you see the Master die on screen then assume he or she didn't. And if you do see the Master die on screen, you can be sure that she or he didn't.
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Jul 2, 2017 16:22
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Also nice to see Bill not give two shits about the rest now trapped with cybermen on one side, and a loving black hole on the other. Got to go play space angels with someone I met for two minutes 10 years ago, FOREVER.
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Jul 2, 2017 16:32
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happyhippy posted:Also nice to see Bill not give two shits about the rest now trapped with cybermen on one side, and a loving black hole on the other. I think Bill's perception is off after her cyberbody dies and her soul is pulled out. I noticed she kneels down twice to cry on the doctor. It could just be a continuity error, but I think it was on purpose to show how out of it she is.
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Jul 2, 2017 16:51
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Random Stranger posted:You know, I've got to point out that stabbed Master has got hours to live and is going to a place with a lot of advanced medical technology just sitting around. It's very likely that he didn't regenerate. I would love to see more of Simm as Space rear end in a top hat Supreme so I'm in favour of this
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Jul 2, 2017 16:57
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Astroman posted:I don't understand why he can't just regenerate into himself like 10 did, or reuse this body like The Curator. Though he may not have that level of control yet without a Karn potion or a spare hand laying around. The Doctor's always been less good at controlling his regenerations than other Time Lords. (Most of them don't wander around in an amnesiac daze or need to spend the next week in bed afterwards, either.) Aside from Ten (which was a special case involving a severed hand), the most he's ever been able to do is subconsciously take on Caecillus's face. 2house2fly posted:10 didn't regenerate into himself, he used a bit of energy to heal himself and then siphoned all the rest off into his spare hand before it could change his face. Respect The Lore I always interpreted this as Ten using the hand as a genetic template to shape the regeneration, but this explanation probably works about as well. Either way, it's not exactly something he can do on a whim. I feel like the Curator is best left as an easter egg. (Which means that there will certainly down the line be an unnecessarily overcomplicated explanation.)
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