Independence Day 2: Resturgeonce

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Which Thread Title shall we name this new thread? This poll is closed.
Independence Day 2: Resturgeonce	44	21.36%
ScotPol - Unclustering this gently caress	19	9.22%
Trainspotting 2: Independence is my heroin	9	4.37%
Indyref II: Boris hosed a Dead Country	14	6.80%
ScotPol: Wings over Bullshit	8	3.88%
Independence 2: Cameron Lied, UK Died	24	11.65%
Scotpol IV: I Vow To Flee My Country	14	6.80%
ScotPol - A twice in a generation thread	17	8.25%
ScotPol - Where Everything's hosed Up and the Referendums Don't Matter	15	7.28%
ScotPol Thread: Dependence Referendum Incoming	2	0.97%
Indyref II: The Scottish Insturgeoncy	10	4.85%
ScotPol Thread: Act of European Union	5	2.43%
ScotPol - Like Game of Thrones only we wish we would all die	25	12.14%
Total:	206 votes

[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

marktheando: Nov 4, 2006

The idea that Scotland has some kind of duty to vote Labour is a big reason for the Scottish Labour collapse.

If SLab want people to vote for them then perhaps they should stop being so poo poo, rather than just whining about the SNP non stop.

# ? Jun 28, 2017 14:00

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# ? May 10, 2024 05:55

Angepain: Jul 13, 2012; what keeps happening to my clothes

Saying that a tory govt helps the case for independence and saying that the snp are actively trying to bring about a tory govt are different things and the first doesn't prove the second. I'm sure there are all sorts of nefarious evil schemes that would theoretically increase the chances of independence but to accuse the snp of actually doing them you'd still need actual evidence of them doing so.

# ? Jun 28, 2017 14:06

Extreme0: Feb 28, 2013; I dance to the sweet tune of your failure so I'm never gonna stop fucking with you.

Continue to get confused and frustrated with me as I dance to your anger.

As I expect nothing more from ya you stupid runt!

Baron Corbyn posted:

We could be seeing Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn in a progressive partnership with the SNP

What's your definition of progressive? Doing gently caress all and not improving or fixing the current issues with their new powers they have been granted?

Jedit posted:

To not stand for Westminster as they can't achieve anything there, in exchange for extracting pledges of support for Scotland from both major parties? Probably impractical to be fair, but still better than loving the left wing.

Not going to happen. The DUP pretty much backing up the Tories has just proven that the smaller regional parties with at least 10 seats can achieve what they want when the main UK government needs them to function. The SNP are not going to remove themselves based on promises & pledges of support.

# ? Jun 29, 2017 03:31

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Seems like this would be right up Pissflaps street, a Scots translation of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stane is out, at long last.

# ? Jun 29, 2017 11:04

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

Phonetic spelling is not translation.

# ? Jun 29, 2017 11:24

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Extreme0 posted:

What's your definition of progressive? Doing gently caress all and not improving or fixing the current issues with their new powers they have been granted?

Not going to happen. The DUP pretty much backing up the Tories has just proven that the smaller regional parties with at least 10 seats can achieve what they want when the main UK government needs them to function. The SNP are not going to remove themselves based on promises & pledges of support.

There is a major difference between the SNP and the DUP, in that the DUP are not a single issue party aiming to leave the political body they would be helping to govern. We've been over this before - so long as the SNP want independence for Scotland, they cannot be in coalition with any UK party.

# ? Jun 29, 2017 11:38

marktheando: Nov 4, 2006

There is no reason the SNP can't form a coalition or confidence and supply arrangement with Labour. You are being silly about the SNP again Jedit.

Wish I could say I'm surprised you seem to like the DUP more than them...

# ? Jun 29, 2017 13:29

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

marktheando posted:

There is no reason the SNP can't form a coalition or confidence and supply arrangement with Labour. You are being silly about the SNP again Jedit.

Wish I could say I'm surprised you seem to like the DUP more than them...

Thanks for assuming that because I said the SNP and DUP are different, it must mean I like the DUP. That isn't in any way an ad hominem strawman.

And I've been over why the SNP cannot form a coalition with Labour, you're just not listening to either me or them.

# ? Jun 29, 2017 13:54

marktheando: Nov 4, 2006

Jedit posted:

Thanks for assuming that because I said the SNP and DUP are different, it must mean I like the DUP. That isn't in any way an ad hominem strawman.

And I've been over why the SNP cannot form a coalition with Labour, you're just not listening to either me or them.

Well remind me what your reason is then, I can't think of one.

# ? Jun 29, 2017 13:59

CoolCab: Apr 17, 2005; glem

the 👏only 👏ethical 👏 nationalism 👏 is 👏 my 👏 nationalism

# ? Jun 29, 2017 14:05

Aramoro: Jun 1, 2012

marktheando posted:

There is no reason the SNP can't form a coalition or confidence and supply arrangement with Labour. You are being silly about the SNP again Jedit.

Well they said they explicitly wouldn't do that, the best they would do was issue-by-issue agreements. The SNP will never enter into a Confidence and Supply agreement with a UK Government as that ties them to agreeing with the budget which has a direct impact on the Scottish coffers.

I mean you're looking at a party that opposed Sunday opening in England and Wales because of the tangential effect it could have on Scottish workers. There's no way they're signing up to Westminster budgets.

# ? Jun 29, 2017 14:29

Angepain: Jul 13, 2012; what keeps happening to my clothes

Aramoro posted:

The SNP will never enter into a Confidence and Supply agreement with a UK Government as that ties them to agreeing with the budget which has a direct impact on the Scottish coffers.

I mean you're looking at a party that opposed Sunday opening in England and Wales because of the tangential effect it could have on Scottish workers. There's no way they're signing up to Westminster budgets.

I'm afraid I really don't follow this. In the event of Labour relying on SNP votes for a budget the party could easily a) extract some concessions in the budget and crow about how influential and helpful they are regardless of how tiny the concessions are b) make some serious faces about how the budget is not ideal in their eyes but while Scotland is shackled to the dreaded Union the SNP will do their best to ensure that the Tories are not allowed to rule over scotland look at how progressive and brave we are etc etc.

# ? Jun 29, 2017 14:48

Aramoro: Jun 1, 2012

Angepain posted:

I'm afraid I really don't follow this. In the event of Labour relying on SNP votes for a budget the party could easily a) extract some concessions in the budget and crow about how influential and helpful they are regardless of how tiny the concessions are b) make some serious faces about how the budget is not ideal in their eyes but while Scotland is shackled to the dreaded Union the SNP will do their best to ensure that the Tories are not allowed to rule over scotland look at how progressive and brave we are etc etc.

A confidence and supply agreement says you'll support the budget as it's presented, what you're suggesting is going issue-by-issue. So thanks for agreeing with me I guess.

# ? Jun 29, 2017 15:21

Angepain: Jul 13, 2012; what keeps happening to my clothes

Aramoro posted:

A confidence and supply agreement says you'll support the budget as it's presented, what you're suggesting is going issue-by-issue. So thanks for agreeing with me I guess.

Supporting the budget as presented would be b).

# ? Jun 29, 2017 15:34

Aramoro: Jun 1, 2012

Angepain posted:

Supporting the budget as presented would be b).

So a confidence and supply agreement which they ruled out doing? They've ruled it out doing it, its not just theory-crafting on my part.

# ? Jun 29, 2017 15:52

Angepain: Jul 13, 2012; what keeps happening to my clothes

It was the reasoning why that I didn't follow. Also isn't the Tory-DUP deal a confidence and supply? That still involved budgetary concessions by the Tories which is what I was talking about.

# ? Jun 29, 2017 19:31

Aramoro: Jun 1, 2012

For the SNP its ideological and political, they can't be seen to prop up a UK government thry do not want to be a part of. The same reason Sien Fein don't take uo their seats really.

We'll never really know if they would have gone for because the maths didn't support it this time round. But they certainly said they wouldn't do it.

# ? Jun 30, 2017 15:59

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

Is anyone in this thread taking part in the boycott of Highland Spring mineral water?

# ? Jul 4, 2017 14:20

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

# ? Jul 4, 2017 14:33

Alan G: Dec 27, 2003

If drinking tap water means you are boycotting them then yes.

# ? Jul 4, 2017 15:37

mehall: Aug 27, 2010

Pissflaps posted:

Is anyone in this thread taking part in the boycott of Highland Spring mineral water?

Is this another of your hugely successful boycotts?

# ? Jul 4, 2017 15:47

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

mehall posted:

Is this another of your hugely successful boycotts?

No I'm not taking part in it.

# ? Jul 4, 2017 15:55

Niric: Jul 23, 2008

Pissflaps posted:

Is anyone in this thread taking part in the boycott of Highland Spring mineral water?

Why are they being boycotted?

# ? Jul 4, 2017 16:49

GEORGE W BUSHI: Jul 1, 2012

Pissflaps is either referring to the backlash to comments by the boss of Highland Spring telling Sturgeon to stop pushing for independence or the shocking revelation that Highland Spring mineral water is Halal certified.

# ? Jul 4, 2017 17:07

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

Because the CEO doesn't want another referendum.

# ? Jul 4, 2017 17:07

Niric: Jul 23, 2008

Baron Corbyn posted:

the shocking revelation that Highland Spring mineral water is Halal certified.

is there any reason why bottled water wouldn't/couldn't be halal certified?

# ? Jul 4, 2017 17:37

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Niric posted:

is there any reason why bottled water wouldn't/couldn't be halal certified?

Additives, potentially.

# ? Jul 4, 2017 18:02

Buccaneer: Jun 24, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Happy 4th of July

# ? Jul 5, 2017 06:24

Niric: Jul 23, 2008

Scottish economy still doing poo poo

quote:

Scottish GDP figures to be published

7 hours ago

Scotland is to find out whether it has formally slipped into recession when the latest GDP figures are published.

The statistics will show whether the country's economic output has shrunk for the second successive quarter.

If it has, Scotland will officially be in recession for the first time since 2012.

The last set of GDP figures, which were released in April, showed Scottish economic output contracted by 0.2% in the final quarter of last year.

This was compared to growth of 0.7% for the UK as a whole over the same period.

'Cycle of weak growth'

The April figures also showed Scottish GDP had grown by just 0.4% over the calendar year - compared with growth of 1.8% for the UK as a whole.

Experts have warned it is "in the balance" whether or not the latest figures, which are due to be published on Wednesday morning, will show any improvement in the Scottish economy.

And they have expressed concern that Scotland was contracting at a time when the overall UK economy was growing relatively healthily.

A recent report from economists at the Fraser of Allander Institute said Scotland seemed to be "stuck in a cycle of weak growth".

They predicted that growth will pick up over the next few years, but was "likely to continue to lag behind the UK".

SOURCE: SCOTTISH GOVERNMENTImage captionScottish economic growth has lagged behind the UK as a whole for the past two years

The EY Scottish Item Club also warned the Scottish economy was showing signs of slowing faster than the rest of the UK as a result of fading consumer spending and firms remaining reluctant to invest.

However, a Royal Bank of Scotland survey released last week found Scottish firms were confident of expansion over the remainder of 2017, despite reporting "modest" growth in the three months to June.

Its business monitor suggested the weak pound had offered some comfort to the nation's exporters and tourism sector.

'Powering ahead'

The Scottish government has previously argued that the impact of the Brexit vote was contributing to lower growth in Scotland.

Its economy secretary, Keith Brown, will outline the action he is taking to help grow the economy on a visit to a business in Angus.

But the Conservatives have questioned why, if Brexit is to blame, the rest of the UK has been "powering ahead, while Scotland comes to a standstill".

The Tories say urgent pro-business measures are needed - and that the "threat" of a second independence referendum must be lifted.

Labour has argued that the Scottish government should be using Holyrood's powers to stimulate the economy and create jobs by frontloading infrastructure spending and investing more in education.

But the SNP claimed opposition parties appeared "desperate" for Scotland to be in recession just so they could attack the Scottish government, and said their comments were "as predictable as they are pathetic".

That graph is really interesting. The sharp break around Q2-Q3 2015 is odd, any thoughts? It'd be useful to see it going back further, since the Scottish economy has lagged for a long time, so getting a long term view would put this in context.

The SNP response is particularly crap though and smacks of "stop talking Scotland down"

# ? Jul 5, 2017 08:39

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Niric posted:

Scottish economy still doing poo poo

That graph is really interesting. The sharp break around Q2-Q3 2015 is odd, any thoughts?

Well, it coincides with the SNP sweeping the Westminster seats. That's not a reflection on the SNP themselves, of course, but it could be a reflection on how they are perceived - their taking the results as a mandate for independence threatening business, for instance.

# ? Jul 5, 2017 09:35

Leggsy: Apr 30, 2008; We'll take our chances...

I would suggest the oil price crash is a bigger contributor than anything politics/independence related. Would be odd for businesses to worry more about independence after the referendum. It also explains why Scotland outgrew the UK this quarter since there has been a relative recovery in the oil and gas sector.

# ? Jul 5, 2017 12:33

Niric: Jul 23, 2008

In a fashion which will shock, shock economists, on the one hand

Niric posted:

Scottish economy still doing poo poo

but on the other hand Scottish economy maybe doing pretty well relatively?

quote:

Scotland avoids recession as economy rebounds

SCOTLAND has avoided recession, with new figures showing a return to economic growth.

Data released by Scotland�s Chief Statistician showed the Scottish economy grew by 0.8 per cent in the first three months of 2017.

It was a marked improvement on a 0.2 per cent fall in GDP in the previous quarter, and the highest quarterly growth figure since 2014, when falling oil prices began to hit the North Sea.

Two consecutive quarters of falling GDP would have constituted a technical recession.The Scottish Chambers of Commerce said avoiding recession was �a huge sigh of relief for our economy� and pointed to the end of �a stagnant years� for the economy.

Three-quarters of Scottish growth in Q1 was attributable to the production sector, which includes manufacturing, quarrying, water and energy supply, as well as the metal industry which is part of the North Sea oil and gas supply chain.

The Fraser of Allander Institute last week reported Scottish exports had been boosted by the weaker pound caused by the slide on Sterling since the Brexit vote.

The Scottish Q1 figure for 2017 was four times higher than that for the UK as a whole, which grew by just 0.2 per cent.

However, year on year, the UK economy still out-performed Scotland�s, growing by 2 per cent in the 12 months to the end of march, against 0.7 per cent for the year in Scotland.

SNP economy secretary Keith Brown [said the Scottish Government is really great, cautions about tough times ahead etc etc I'm sure you can fill in the blanks]

The GDP figures showed a 3.1 per cent growth in production, services up 0.3 per cent, but also a further fall in the construction sector, down another 0.7 per cent.

Scottish Secretary David Mundell [was very on-message saying the Scottish Government needs to do more and actually Brexit could be good etc etc I'm sure you can fill in the blanks]

Labour economy spokesperson Jackie Baillie added: [SNP should focus on the day job etc etc I'm sure you can fill in the blanks]

Scottish LibDem leader Willie Rennie added ["Willie Rennie!!!"]

Liz Cameron, Chief Executive of Scottish Chambers of Commerce [just repeats the article, but also agrees with Leggsy that] "This represents the best quarter of growth for the Scottish economy since the effects of low oil prices began to emerge in 2015"

[EDIT: Just seen that The Resolution Foundation have published an interesting blog post on this very theme, giving a better overview of the mixed picture than the above news articles

quote:

A tale of two Scottish economies

Imagine two economies. One has just announced strong economic growth, well ahead of the UK. Over time it�s become more productive relative to the UK and unemployment is as low as it�s been for decades. Then imagine another, in which GDP fell two quarters ago sparking fears of recession. In contrast to record employment across the UK, its labour market is showing signs of ill-health with an employment rate still below the pre-crisis level.

Those who keep a close eye on Scotland�s economy will probably have twigged that these two countries are one and the same. Today�s announcement that Scottish GDP grew as strongly at the start of 2017 � by 0.8 per cent � as at any time since 2014 is welcome. And Scotland continues to outperform the UK average on a number of economic measures. But growth was very weak over the course of 2016, with output falling in the final quarter of the year. And, years after the financial crisis, Scotland�s labour market performance remains uneven.

First, the good news. Growth in manufacturing and the extractive industries bounced back in the first quarter of 2017. The service sector resumed its steady expansion of the past couple of years too. Construction output continued to fall, but the number of people working in the sector has held up. Such resilience has helped the employment rate to creep back up again after a difficult second half of 2016. The unemployment rate is now just 4 per cent, as low as it�s been in the past 25 years and under the current UK rate of 4.6 per cent.

But this is just one side of the story. Year-on-year growth in GDP is just 0.7 per cent, with the country failing to top 1 per cent since the end of 2015. Business confidence has fallen and there are 22,000 fewer roles in the shrinking manufacturing sector today than at the same point two years ago. Record low unemployment rates are masking the rise in working-age people who have left the labour market altogether. Economic inactivity is � at 22.7 per cent � higher in Scotland than in the UK (where it is 21.5 per cent). Male inactivity rates at the start of 2017 were higher than at any point since records began 25 years ago, while female inactivity rates were at a four-year high, though the past few months have been an improvement.

The decline of manufacturing, oil and gas is likely to have played a role in this. The Scottish government�s �12m Transition Training Fund to help people who�ve lost their jobs in North Sea-linked industries was a welcome response. But it would be wrong to conclude these employment concerns are solely driven by oil and gas. There are other weaknesses that warrant closer inspection.

Much of the recent employment recovery has been driven by self-employment, with 10 per cent more self-employed workers in 2016 than in 2015 while the number of employees fell over the same period. While self-employment can be a positive option, people working for themselves earn less on average than employees. Indeed, half of full-time self-employed workers across the UK fall below the weekly low pay threshold. The quality and sustainability of these new roles remains to be seen.

Scotland�s workers don�t appear to be brimming with confidence either. The share of people switching jobs � an important indicator of the health of the labour market and one of the key mechanisms for rising pay � is now lower than in any other country or region of the UK, barring Northern Ireland.

The picture then is mixed. Which of these two Scotlands wins out will depend on a number of factors. Policymakers at Holyrood and Westminster each have levers that could be pulled. An important first step though is not to kid ourselves that one strong quarter of growth or low unemployment means everything�s okay again.

Niric fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Jul 5, 2017

# ? Jul 5, 2017 15:55

Hoops: Aug 19, 2005; A Black Mark For Retarded Posting

Yeah the dip was oil right? Aberdeen economy getting hit hard. I'm not aware of any job losses that were related to the possibility of independence happening.

# ? Jul 5, 2017 18:27

big scary monsters: Sep 2, 2011; -~Ｓｋｕｌｌｗａｖｅ~-

Hoops posted:

I'm not aware of any job losses that were related to the possibility of independence happening.

I can think of at least 21...

# ? Jul 5, 2017 18:43

Juliet Whisky: Jan 14, 2017

Aramoro posted:

For the SNP its ideological and political, they can't be seen to prop up a UK government thry do not want to be a part of. The same reason Sien Fein don't take uo their seats really.

We'll never really know if they would have gone for because the maths didn't support it this time round. But they certainly said they wouldn't do it.

Hahaha let's think for more than one second about the electoral consequences for the SNP had they failed to support a Labour leader for Prime Minister. The worst outcome would have been something like the DUP have achieved in picking cash from the magic money tree.

# ? Jul 7, 2017 23:02

Angepain: Jul 13, 2012; what keeps happening to my clothes

In news that I'm sure will be treated with maturity and reason by all political thinkers in the country, Kezia Dugdale is currently dating a SNP MSP. maybe bipartisanship isn't dead forever.

# ? Jul 15, 2017 17:37

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Angepain posted:

In news that I'm sure will be treated with maturity and reason by all political thinkers in the country, Kezia Dugdale is currently dating a SNP MSP. maybe bipartisanship isn't dead forever.

I imagine they can bond over wanting a Tory government.

# ? Jul 15, 2017 17:42

Angepain: Jul 13, 2012; what keeps happening to my clothes

In news that I'm sure will be treated with maturity and reason by Jedit,

# ? Jul 15, 2017 17:43

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Angepain posted:

In news that I'm sure will be treated with maturity and reason by Jedit,

That was more of an insult aimed at Dugdale. The SNP at least have the excuse of being disaffected Tories and/or a Tory government helping them towards their end goal.

# ? Jul 15, 2017 17:48

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# ? May 10, 2024 05:55

Extreme0: Feb 28, 2013; I dance to the sweet tune of your failure so I'm never gonna stop fucking with you.

Continue to get confused and frustrated with me as I dance to your anger.

As I expect nothing more from ya you stupid runt!

This isn't really anything new in politics though.

Though I imagine that this is already going to add more against her when the time comes for her to get the boot.

# ? Jul 15, 2017 22:18

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