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7 is the one that generally vies with 5 for supremacy both in Witchchat and the general fandom. please look forward to it
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 03:05 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 09:26 |
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witchcore ricepunk posted:It's not just the eagle, though: it's the combo of Beatrice probably being Italian (based mainly on pronunciation atm), the timing of Kinzo receiving the gold, and the existence of the gold itself that add up to the theory. The eagle thing certainly helps, but I wouldn't say that's the entire basis for the theory. I just stumbled on it while researching what peas was saying. The timing is what I found particularly interesting. Beatrice the Younger died in 1967 (according to Ronove's red text). She looked like she could be in her early twenties or late teens, which would put her birth in the mid-to-late 1940s. Italy sort-of was out of the war in 1943; they surrendered, but part of the state received support from Germany and formed a breakaway nation called the Italian Social Republic that kept fighting until 1945; Mussolini and Hitler actually died within a couple of days of each other (although Mussolini was killed, while Hitler committed suicide). Either way, you could see her being an Italian expat around that same timeframe, and either the first or second collapse of the Italian state could have marooned her in Japan with grabby-hands Kinzo.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 03:43 |
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If EP3 is the best of the question arcs, EP7 is the best of the answer arcs. In general, the odd number episodes of Umineko are by far the strongest because Ryukishi had twice as much time to write 3, 5 and 7 compared to 2, 4, 6 and 8 (EP1 is not counted in this because he theoretically had unlimited time to write it for its debut)
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 03:44 |
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idonotlikepeas posted:The timing is what I found particularly interesting. Beatrice the Younger died in 1967 (according to Ronove's red text). She looked like she could be in her early twenties or late teens, which would put her birth in the mid-to-late 1940s. Italy sort-of was out of the war in 1943; they surrendered, but part of the state received support from Germany and formed a breakaway nation called the Italian Social Republic that kept fighting until 1945; Mussolini and Hitler actually died within a couple of days of each other (although Mussolini was killed, while Hitler committed suicide). Either way, you could see her being an Italian expat around that same timeframe, and either the first or second collapse of the Italian state could have marooned her in Japan with grabby-hands Kinzo. That could also explain why the original owners of the gold aren't looking for it, as far as we know. If the state owned it, no one was left to go look for it. There's a possibility that Beatrice's family owned it and was fleeing, but I doubt they would be able to discreetly transport 10 tons of gold in the 1940s without a military-grade vessel. It would be impossible for her to be the only one transporting it, so I wonder what happened to her colleagues and/or family. Regardless, Kinzo seems to have considered the gold to be a gift from her, which explains the contents of those letters Yama sent to the family during the conferences.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 04:44 |
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Yeah. I'd guess, although this is only a guess, that it's more likely to be state-owned gold because of the unlikelihood of any one family being that wealthy and the necessities of transportation. That would make Beatrice likely to be some kind of high Fascist official, which would also explain why she wouldn't want to go back to Italy afterward. As for what happened to everyone else: Professor Prof posted:"...Hmmmm? Me? *cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*! Yes, of course I once had the same question thrust upon me. Because I splendidly answered that devil's question, I was able to obtain gold and honor, and that witch as my possession."
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 05:12 |
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OK, I'd be cool with a Kinzo who killed a bunch of fascists to steal their gold like some kind of antifa goblin
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 05:49 |
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I'm getting a beamed-in message from Witchchat... a message from a lurker...!!a lurker posted:
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 05:51 |
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oh nooooo I'm crying and it's so ugly and horrible but I love this! Thank you lurker!!!
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 06:25 |
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I don't know what's real any more.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 06:37 |
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The story has something like five meta levels, then our discussion here is another, then witchchat is discussing us. Only witchchat is real.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 07:59 |
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BurningStone posted:The story has something like five meta levels, then our discussion here is another, then witchchat is discussing us. Only witchchat is real. You say that, but just wait til the next episode features piece Battler reading a book about witch chat. Because why should meta layers be finite?
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 08:41 |
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So I've just started reading the first game LP. What sort of head-canon voices should I be assigning to our characters for maximum fun? Would you consider this a better game than Drakengard?
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 09:07 |
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Grouchio posted:So I've just started reading the first game LP. What sort of head-canon voices should I be assigning to our characters for maximum fun? They have actual VAs. Who cares, there's no relation to Drakengard.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 10:10 |
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Rodyle posted:They have actual VAs.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 10:17 |
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Archaeo's story there is great! I skimmed it in Witchchat before, but that was without images. It looks amazing set out properly.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 10:25 |
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It's fantastic. (Also, if the Witchchat is real, then witches are real, naturally.)
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 12:29 |
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We have been telling you
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 13:11 |
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Good morning. Today is the day of the funeral for the Golden Witch and her game. The days of the game have ended, and fond memories are all that remain. Here, the cold, hard truth will be revealed, and the game will meet its death... There is a bit of difficulty. A dream is something drawn in the sand between the coming and receding waves. Something so fragile that it is wiped blank each time the waves draw back. For this reason, the heartless might sneer at the drawing and call it useless. However, no wave will ever come again to wipe away the dream she drew. Her final, beautiful dream will not disappear for all eternity. Come, try and picture it. Picture it as the gentle afternoon sunshine on a warm spring day, as though that light would never dim again. After all, it is such a wonderful thing... BGM: Liberated Liberater Their uniforms closely resembled those of Eiserne Jungfrau, but they were slightly different. Also different were the badges signifying their department. Then came the sound of someone clapping their hands once. It was the lead female Inquisitor. It was her signal that all reasoning had been completed. At the other end of her pointing finger was a quivering maid with frightened eyes. Her name was... no, that's not important. What matters now is that she could have entered the closed room study where the victim was found whenever she pleased, and furthermore, it had been proven that her claimed alibi for the time of the crime was contradictory. Shaking, the maid tried to continue in her illogical pleading, but everything she said had already been seen through. "With this, we have found sufficient proof for the 'who dunnit' and the 'how dunnit'. Know that your position as the culprit is now an unshakable fact." "Y, you must be joking...! Wh, wh, why would I kill the Master I loved and respected so...?! I have no motive, no reason...!" "...Who did it and how. Know that these are all that need to be established. Please, allow me to speak. Know that motives are unnecessary in mysteries." The Inquisitor spoke coldly. BGM: None In her place, Battler moved to the front of the coffin, wearing his territory lord's cape... Though the cape was supposed to represent dignity and majesty, it somehow made Battler look smaller. Battler held a book with a majestic binding in his hand. It was... a game record that had just been written. Or, perhaps it was a tale. A game. Or else a Fragment. Written in it... was the 'dream' that would be more enjoyable for her than any other... Battler pressed it against his forehead and contemplated for some time. Then, he kissed it, and laid it gently in the coffin. It was placed upon her chest. It made her look like a little girl clutching her favorite stuffed animal as she drifted off to sleep... This tale will be shut up with you in your coffin, for all eternity. So, no one will be able to read it except for you, there in your coffin. "Shut away in that cat box, the only unchanging, inviolable... eternal tale." "This way, no one will be able to defile your tale. No one can deny it, and no one can argue against it. Between just me and her, just the two of us, this is the one and only... certain truth." BGM: Liberated Liberater A man dashed through a town wrapped in twilight. The daytime hustle and bustle of this beautiful village, which combined the traditional with the orderly in the classic style of the last century, now seemed like a mere dream. The orange setting sun was already hidden behind the clock tower, and the narrow alleyway was rapidly descending into darkness. As the gas lights began to turn on, they only made the darkness of the twilight stand out all the more. The man sprinted. There was no time. He had to hurry. He'd had several experiments to do and things he had to check, and it had all taken longer than he'd expected. In the mystery genre, the motive, or the 'why dunnit', is given the least precedence. A murder is constructed because there's a culprit who commits a crime. A motive has no place there. So, it's usually the most ignored element. In fact, these days, there are even some who call it unnecessary. "If you find the culprit with nothing but the 'why dunnit', that's no mystery. That's propaganda. However..." However, just because of that fact... It doesn't mean that you can ignore the motive... the heart. BGM: None "..." "Come. It is time for us to leave. If we're too noisy, we'll wake her from her dream." "...You're right. What else should you do with a sleeping kid, except put a blanket on them, turn off the lights, and walk away quietly..." After looking at the coffin one last time, Virgilia turned around quietly. Battler did the same, but he then stopped and turned to face the rose-covered altar... Battler said his final words with his heart. As long as those words didn't leave his mouth, no one could understand what they were. However, those words of the heart caused Battler's expression to change several times. At first, he frowned sadly... then, his face clouded with remorse, and then changed to a bitter, dumbfounded smile. It flashed through several varied expressions. Then, the final expression that crossed his face was, surprisingly, a gentle smile. "..." Something rose to Battler's lips. However, he bit it back down. There could certainly be no words to describe the many feelings he kept in his chest. So, saying anything aloud would probably be crude. Battler understood this, and stopped himself from speaking once more with a bitter smile. "..." "...Thank you." "Oh, I have done nothing deserving of your gratitude..." "...I'll leave the rest to you." After seeing Virgilia nod back at him, Battler turned away from the altar one more time... and left the chapel. Virgilia also disappeared, and all disturbances that might have interrupted her blissful sleep had vanished... BGM: Liberated Liberater They listened to the frantic babbling of the maid accused of murdering her master. However, nothing she said could bury the fault in her own alibi. They were all mere emotional arguments. I loved and respected my master so much. I had no motive for killing him. No matter how much she spoke, it only made her look more and more like the floundering true culprit struggling pathetically. The 'who dunnit' and 'how dunnit' had been satisfied. As for the 'why dunnit', the motive, the heart... No matter how much she spoke of her gratitude for her master, who had graciously given her a job when she had been left by the wayside after various misfortunes, that didn't help her case in the slightest in the mystery genre. Therefore, her motive didn't matter. All of that could just be squeezed out of the culprit afterwards. An Inquisitor of Heresy took out a roll of parchment and held it forth, cutting off the maid's sobs and protests. "Here is the warrant for your arrest. The motive is unnecessary. Know that such a thing is completely extraneous in the matter of pinpointing the culprit." "Please, allow me to speak. Know that we of the SSVD possess methods of forcing unrepentant criminals to reveal the truth." "With these interrogation tools blessed by the powers of justice, we Inquisitors of Heresy will strap up your limbs, burn them, crush them, hang you by them, and so doing wring the red truth out of you. It isn't even necessary for you to confess! Aides, arrest that maid!" "It wasn't me! I didn't kill the master...!! N, no, noooooooooo!!" BGM: Rebirth A man kicked the door open, and the Inquisitors were all shocked at the sight of him. "Wh, why are you here? Know that this case is no longer your responsibility...!" "Quiet. You find one person without an alibi and just assume that she's the culprit? Do you really think there's no need for a motive, for a heart, in crime? Crimes are committed by people. There are no crimes without a heart. I'll never accept any theory that ignores the heart." "Kn, know that your focus on the 'why dunnit' is simply embarrassing...! The 'why dunnit' is unnecessary! Such a thing can be easily extracted through interrogation! Even the Great Court has already acknowledged that this woman is the culprit...!!" "Oh, the Great Court does assume that everyone besides the maid has an alibi. But that's just because they heard you say so, and they've mistaken your overconfidence and conceit for wisdom. If any one of the other suspects loses their alibi, your evidence so far proves nothing. Just look at how pathetic some of these other alibis are. Did the clock in the reception hall chime midnight at exactly the right time? Did the dog by the back door bark at everyone?" "So, you managed to prove the maid's alibi false. Congratulations. But does it end there? It may've been possible for her to do it, but does she have any motive at all? Are the alibis for the others absolutely perfect? This maid wasn't the only one with a false alibi. You have to keep on searching if you want to find the others. Was there some sort of grudge against the victim? Or some money-related problem? Don't abandon motive, don't abandon the heart. Dry mysteries where the motive can just be figured out later aren't worth anyone's time." "I, if the maid isn't the culprit, then why did she fake an alibi?! Even asking such a question is a waste of time! Know that we just have to interrogate her, wring out the red truth, and have her sign in red blood to everything that happened at the time of the crime!" "Yeah, you probably can do that. You can just use that torture of yours to squeeze out everything frankly and objectively, as seen from the eyes of God. But you know what? I'll never accept mysteries and theories that lack heart." "I, I have already taken over responsibility for this case!! I even have a decree right here! Come now, Aides, know that there is no reason to hesitate! I order you to arrest this maid!!" When she gave this order, her subordinates hesitated, looking back and forth between their superior and that man... "I won't let you. The real culprit's a different person. It's possible to use motive to find them, and the alibi trick's an old one. You can't forget the heart." "Th, there's no need for that...!! We just have to find the suspicious ones who could have committed the crime, interrogate them, and squeeze out the red truth!! On the off-chance that they are not the culprit, then we just have to interrogate the next suspect...!!" "You call that reasoning?" "Stand back!! We will arrest that woman!! Know that this maid is the culprit!!" "Wh, what... did you say...?!?!" The words of power blasted away the Aides who were trying to arrest the maid. "...Van Dine's Twenty Rules, Rule #11. If you want to torture this maid, make sure you double check the alibis for the second wife and her lover first." "Th, those two already have a clear alibi for the time of the crime...!!" "That, an alibi? Dammit, a fool like you couldn't understand no matter how easy I make it for you. If you want to call yourself the Head Inquisitor, try and figure out at least that much for yourself. Until then, I'll be taking that maid's arrest warrant." "Then what about you?! Can you prove that this maid didn't commit the crime?! Know that she was clearly away from the kitchen at the time of the crime! What was she doing then, and where?! She can't prove it, I can't prove it, and you can't prove it! No one can! That's why we have no choice but to use these torture devices to interrogate her until the red truth is squeezed out!!" "You can squeeze as much blood and truth from the true culprit as you drat well please. However, I won't let you interrogate or torture anyone who isn't that culprit." "Th, this is why everyone says you're too soft...! All the suspicious must be interrogated! That is how we Inquisitors of Heresy conduct our witch trials!!" "That's right, we are Inquisitors of Heresy. Felling evil witches is our job. However, we must not risk hurting the innocent. We must not suspect them...! All humans have their own personal truths. Those should only be exposed when they commit crimes. We've been given the right to expose them. But there's one thing we can't do." "...Wh, what...?!" The maid finally realized that he was trying to protect her. "...I, I don't know who you are, but... Th, thank you very much...! I'm... really not... the culprit!" "Yeah, I know. Your boyfriend said he'd be willing to give up everything to prove your alibi. You should thank him. That kid said that honor and reputation are worth nothing compared to you." "B, but, if he does that, he'll..." "It won't come to that. Exposing the secrets between lovers is a job for third-rate magazines. That's not mystery. I'll never allow for heartless reasoning." Then, for the first time, the man's sullen expression relaxed, and he patted the maid's head unreservedly. "...I'm sure you two will be happy together. Still, meeting together in secret while on the job is hardly praiseworthy. Try to keep that to a minimum." "Th, thank you so much... Thank you so much..." These words were heard only by the two of them. The man had learned of her innocence, which could only be proven by exposing the secrets of a pair of young lovers, and he had rushed about in search of a solution, resentful of the arrogance of those trying to expose this by forcible means. "The point of theory-making is not to create a culprit or to trample the truths, that lie in the hearts of those who have not sinned. If you want to play the detective, don't forget the heart. If we do that, we're just intellectual rapists. Don't forget it!!" "Uu... ggh... ggggghhhhh...!!" When the man spoke, the Inquisitors no longer had any way to argue back. This man's name is Will. And yet, that's not what everyone used to call him. Head Inquisitor of Heresy in SSVD, the 8th District Repentance Enforcement Agency of the Great Court of Heaven. Wizard-hunting Wright. Video: Opening LET'S PLAY UMINEKO NO NAKU KORO NI, EPISODE 7: REQUIEM OF THE GOLDEN WITCH Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Jul 4, 2017 |
# ? Jul 4, 2017 13:47 |
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And we're off again! The full text of S. S. Van Dine's twenty rules can be found here. It should be fairly easy to deduce whether or not the story up until this point follows them.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 13:48 |
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Clearly it fails at #3 so I guess not.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 14:13 |
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Will... Wright? New dude is cool and my new best friend.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 14:17 |
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Not only does it not follow them, it specifically and deliberately flouts them on several occasions. (Making servants the culprits, although I guess if Yamada solved the epitaph and is secretly the head of the family, they aren't technically a servant, having a mystery hinge on cigarette brands, including a romantic element, etc.) Will(iam) Wright is, of course, the genius and jerk behind the Sim franchise and all its many offshoots. Probably more relevantly to us, though, Will(ard) Wright is the real name of noted mystery author S.S. Van Dine. Van Dine's detective was named Philo Vance, of whom Ogden Nash once memorably wrote: Philo Vance Needs a kick in the pance. Truly a poem of sublime beauty. Van Dine was a bit of a dick; as evidence I offer you the full text of rule 11, part of which has been omitted in the document Prof linked to. S.S. Van Dine posted:Servants—such as butlers, footmen, valets, game-keepers, cooks, and the like—must not be chosen by the author as the culprit. This is begging a noble question. It is a too easy solution. It is unsatisfactory, and makes the reader feel that his time has been wasted. The culprit must be a decidedly worth-while person—one that wouldn't ordinarily come under suspicion; for if the crime was the sordid work of a menial, the author would have had no business to embalm it in book-form. In other words: "Servants are garbage people, and nobody is surprised when garbage people commit a crime. Pick someone cool to commit your crime instead." (You may download the full text here, if you like.) Vance has not retained as much of his fame as Holmes, et al, but in his day he was one of the most popular detectives going, even appearing in several movies. He was eclipsed later in his existence by the new wave of noir detectives lead by such authors as Raymond Chandler and Dashiell Hammett. As for his rules, I'm not a huge fan; I think it's kind of a mix of useful advice and fussy flummery. Knox's are much better, or Chandler's. Tastes vary, of course.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 14:19 |
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So I'm given to understand that y'all have been unsatisfied by all the Mystery Side reps up to this point.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 14:22 |
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Oh, and let's talk about motive, while we're at it. The place in which motive is irrelevant is, in fact, the real world; a court of law does not require motive to be proven in order to convict you of a crime, it only requires that it is proven you actually did it. Motive may factor into determining the difference between first and second degree murder in the U.S., but in general, why you committed a crime isn't terribly germane. As for mystery stories, I am in full agreement with Will here. A mystery that doesn't explain why the culprit committed the crime isn't much of a mystery at all. People care about that kind of thing; if you want to make a story that resonates with people, you have to explore why it can possibly be that someone is driven to commit this sort of act; sometimes it's fairly obvious, and that's okay, but avoiding the topic entirely would be a serious mistake. (Incidentally, the Van Dine rule that annoys me most is the idea that every mystery must be a murder mystery. Holmes didn't follow that rule, and got a couple of great stories out of it. Don't limit yourselves, mystery authors!) So I take it Will is our new detective? He does seem pretty solid so far. I also assume him to be the larger, standing person from the teaser image.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 14:30 |
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ProfessorProf posted:In her place, Battler moved to the front of the coffin, wearing his territory lord's cape... Though the cape was supposed to represent dignity and majesty, it somehow made Battler look smaller. Goddammit, now I'm crying. This avatar of Van Dine seems pretty cool, unlike the bit-of-a-dick the real Van Dine appears to have been from some of those rules. In particular, rule 16 seems kind of antithetical to the idea of the importance of motive: quote:A detective novel should contain no long descriptive passages, no literary dallying with side-issues, no subtly worked-out character analyses, no "atmospheric" preoccupations. such matters have no vital place in a record of crime and deduction. They hold up the action and introduce issues irrelevant to the main purpose, which is to state a problem, analyze it, and bring it to a successful conclusion. To be sure, there must be a sufficient descriptiveness and character delineation to give the novel verisimilitude.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 15:41 |
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And my absolute favorite character has arrived
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 15:48 |
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Will Wright presents Umineko no Naku Koro niRodyle posted:So I'm given to understand that y'all have been unsatisfied by all the Mystery Side reps up to this point. He's making a good first impression. He straight up calls out Erika, which is always a good start. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Jul 4, 2017 |
# ? Jul 4, 2017 16:10 |
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I'm confused. Why is he wearing pants?
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 16:23 |
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witchcore ricepunk posted:Why is he wearing pants? ...that is an excellent question. Want to bet that someone has done some fanart of him wearing the standard inquisitor uniform?
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 16:44 |
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idonotlikepeas posted:...that is an excellent question. Want to bet that someone has done some fanart of him wearing the standard inquisitor uniform? I can't wait til this LP is over so I can google all the fanart. oath2order posted:Edit: BTW Prof aren't there a few post game tips for 6 to put up? I know that there are a few character bios at least. While doing my customary post-episode digging through the profile section, I found something innnnnteresting.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 16:55 |
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witchcore ricepunk posted:I can't wait til this LP is over so I can google all the fanart. I expect I will spend a solid couple of hours looking up old theory threads and things like that. It'll be interesting to see how closely what we went through tracks what the community at large did while the games were coming out, since several of the witches have mentioned there were parallels.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 17:00 |
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is she dead
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 17:09 |
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Tired Moritz posted:is she dead Pretty sure being greyed-out = dead. And it is pretty sad that no one really cared that she died. In the end, she was just an innocent unrelated person, not the "intellectual rapist" that Bern turned her into. edit: oops, thank you for the clarification ProfessorProf! witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Jul 4, 2017 |
# ? Jul 4, 2017 17:14 |
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Greyed out is generally used for characters of unknown status, like people who have vanished, or corpses that haven't been verified.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 17:16 |
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Will is immediately far and away my favourite character. It was killing me that our detective last game operated using almost entirely logical fallacies (even her tragic backstory came about entirely because she somehow didn't realize you can't prove a negative) and basically cheating.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 17:22 |
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Erika was supposed to be banished to oblivion or something when she lost the last game. So it's probably better if she's dead.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 17:24 |
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Reading over Van Dine's - I can see why his detractors call him a pouncey blowhard - lot of good advice, but written in a very fussy manner, but overall too restrictive and reeks of classism, unless like the No Chinaman rule of Knox's, it's more a response to the generally upperclass reader's disdain for the service class that ends up looking pretty awful in modern eyes. And definitely clear he's no fan of some of the well-known Holmesian solutions since I recognized at least three references (Silver Blaze, The Dancing Men, and a referent mention of Holmes' cigarette catalog)
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 17:29 |
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The "intellectual rapist" thing seems to be a noticeable trend in the mystery side. Makes you wonder if Erika had any ties to these specific people.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 17:33 |
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Erika's human side profile isn't the only one that got an update. Here's her witch side profile:
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 17:37 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 09:26 |
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Van Dine basically got into writing mysteries because he read them and was like "man these suck, I bet I could do this better." He was well known for being a harsh critic of all things, and pretty much alienated most of his friends and colleagues by being such a dick. If Knox wrote rules out of a respect for the genre and what it could be, Van Dine wrote his based on what he thought detective fiction should be.
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# ? Jul 4, 2017 17:46 |