Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

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Deptfordx: Dec 23, 2013

Jamwad Hilder posted:

Some guy in the British army had confirmed kills with a longbow in WW2. He also carried a claymore around.

Ainsley McTree posted:

British Army mains hanzo

If at least one Imperial Japanese Army Officer who was way into Kyūdō didn't try to use his bow in the field I'd be astonished.

# ? Jul 8, 2017 19:48

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# ? May 13, 2024 12:43

P-Mack: Nov 10, 2007

Deptfordx posted:

If at least one Imperial Japanese Army Officer who was way into Kyūdō didn't try to use his bow in the field I'd be astonished.

I don't doubt some Chinese civilians got used for target practice, at least.

# ? Jul 8, 2017 20:49

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

During the Tokugawa Shogunate "practice killings" of random peasants when a samurai got a new sword were commonplace.

# ? Jul 8, 2017 21:36

Ithle01: May 28, 2013

Kemper Boyd posted:

BHD was probably supposed to not be pro-war but since Ridley Scott is bad, people mostly remember it for pornographic scenes of automatic gunfire mowing down Africans.

I watched this with some Egyptian friends in college when it came out and afterwards that was one quiet bus ride back to campus. I believe their opinion was something along the line 'gently caress that bullshit movie'.

# ? Jul 8, 2017 22:04

Siivola: Dec 23, 2012

Nebakenezzer posted:

During the Tokugawa Shogunate "practice killings" of random peasants when a samurai got a new sword were commonplace.

Y'know, I've heard that so many times but I've never seen anyone go into detail.

# ? Jul 8, 2017 22:06

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

Siivola posted:

Y'know, I've heard that so many times but I've never seen anyone go into detail.

OK

You have a newly-forged sword, and you really really want to try it out

So you and your samurai buddies go out, and find some lower class person. (Feudal Japan had a caste system, so I mean literally lower-caste than a Samurai-class.)

You then act belligerent to this lower class person, or trick them into, the broadest conceivable sense, to insult you.

This gives you a pretext for you to try out your new katana.and kill them.

# ? Jul 8, 2017 22:16

Koramei: Nov 11, 2011; I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

Not saying you're wrong, but have you got a source for that actually being "commonplace" though? Honor killings were definitely attested to occur (against Europeans even, in one famous incident after Japan opened up) but I'm kinda skeptical that they were as ubiquitous as is commonly portrayed.

# ? Jul 8, 2017 22:24

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

I was always led to believe the tests were on prisoners.

# ? Jul 8, 2017 22:49

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Disinterested posted:

I was always led to believe the tests were on prisoners.

And, during WW2, against Chinese civilians.

# ? Jul 8, 2017 22:57

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

Koramei posted:

Not saying you're wrong, but have you got a source for that actually being "commonplace" though? Honor killings were definitely attested to occur (against Europeans even, in one famous incident after Japan opened up) but I'm kinda skeptical that they were as ubiquitous as is commonly portrayed.

I'm looking through two books of mine to see if I can find a reference. Here's a mention of sword-testing:

quote:

"It was the practice in feudal Japan to test the sharpness and resistence of new swords owned by warriors of the upper category and ranks upon the bodies of executed criminals. In certain instances, usually for influential personages who could afford it, the test was carried out on live bodies. It is recorded that a thief who had been sentenced to decapitation, noticing the presence of an offical sword tester and his witnesses among the police officers, asked him 'Are you going to test that blade on me?' 'Yes' was the reply. 'I am going to try for a diagonal cut from the shoulder down.' 'Pity I wasn't told,' remarked the condemned man with wry humor. 'Otherwise I would have swallowed a couple of large stones and ruined your precious blade.'

Secrets of the Samurai, p150-151

# ? Jul 9, 2017 00:22

Hunt11: Jul 24, 2013; Grimey Drawer

That seems a lot more reasonable.

# ? Jul 9, 2017 00:29

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

Here's another. The topic is practicing surprise attacks with a sword:

quote:

"Many a warrior and scores of unsuspecting heimin (regardless of sex or age) fell beneath a sudden arc of steel slashing through the air either to take professional advantage of the possibility of tactical surprise when facing a potentially dangerous opponent -- or merely to test the edge of a katana on a human body, in what became known as 'crossroad-cutting', 'practice murder', 'practice killings', or 'sword-testing murders.'

ibid, p. 276

There's some refrences quoted there, I can dig them out if you like

# ? Jul 9, 2017 00:37

Ainsley McTree: Feb 19, 2004

P-Mack posted:

I don't doubt some Chinese civilians got used for target practice, at least.

well that's less fun

# ? Jul 9, 2017 00:56

thatbastardken: Apr 23, 2010; A contract signed by a minor is not binding!

Cythereal posted:

And, during WW2, against Chinese civilians.

And Commonwealth prisoners of war!

# ? Jul 9, 2017 01:19

Slim Jim Pickens: Jan 16, 2012

Nebakenezzer posted:

Secrets of the Samurai, p150-151

Book's written by a hack.

# ? Jul 9, 2017 01:22

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

Slim Jim Pickens posted:

Book's written by a hack.

Hacks plural? The book has two authors.

e: https://www.amazon.ca/Secrets-Samur...+of+the+samurai

Nebakenezzer fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Jul 9, 2017

# ? Jul 9, 2017 02:01

Koramei: Nov 11, 2011; I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

Personally I'm skeptical of any history book that costs less than 200 dollars

e: incidentally, thanks to whoever suggested I check university libraries for journal access (and for all the other replies!), I feel pretty stupid for not thinking to do that and I'm lucky enough to have a few right near me. I've downloaded like 100 now & feel very dirty about it

Koramei fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Jul 9, 2017

# ? Jul 9, 2017 02:20

Slim Jim Pickens: Jan 16, 2012

Nebakenezzer posted:

Hacks plural? The book has two authors.

e: https://www.amazon.ca/Secrets-Samur...+of+the+samurai

I googled them dude, it's a husband-wife team of aikido aficianados with no academic credentials

Hack maybe calls them out for being more malicious than they are, but they're still not historians.

Slim Jim Pickens fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Jul 9, 2017

# ? Jul 9, 2017 02:38

HookedOnChthonics: Dec 5, 2015; Profoundly dull

Yeah not to make blanket assumptions but testing blades on random people definitely smells of orientals-don't-value-life-the-same-as-us BS, and I'd be incredibly suspicious of it in any book not actually originally written for a Japanese audience.

Hell even that title doesn't pass the orientalism sniff test (those inscrutable samurai, keeping so many secrets!)

That said, when I was in Japan one of the coolest little artifacts I saw was at a preserved samurai house in Kanazawa�it was a letter, written in pretty much the tone of a thank-you note to grandma for your birthday money, thanking the owner of the house for cutting some guy's head off in battle.

# ? Jul 9, 2017 02:59

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

I suspect the proper political context of those stories is not orientalism but the suppression of the samurai class following the Meji restoration.

# ? Jul 9, 2017 03:03

CoolCab: Apr 17, 2005; glem

Fangz posted:

I suspect the proper political context of those stories is not orientalism but the suppression of the samurai class following the Meji restoration.

the orientalism is coming from inside the house!

# ? Jul 9, 2017 03:18

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

Slim Jim Pickens posted:

I googled them dude, it's a husband-wife team of aikido aficianados with no academic credentials

Hack maybe calls them out for being more malicious than they are, but they're still not historians.

Fair enough.

The "practice killing" does cite two different sources, (I did notice both of them had western names) I'll pull 'em out tomorrow to see what you guys think.

It might be orientalism, though if you believe the story I posted earlier, at least it was in the ballpark as to what the Japanese were historically doing.

# ? Jul 9, 2017 04:36

C.M. Kruger: Oct 28, 2013

Here's the Japanese wiki pages for the relevant terms/topics. (yeah I know, wiki, but they've got citations)
Crossroad killing: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%BE%BB%E6%96%AC
Cutting Permit: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%88%87%E6%8D%A8%E5%BE%A1%E5%85%8D
Sword Testing: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%A9%A6%E3%81%97%E6%96%AC%E3%82%8A

Nowadays Google Translate works decently for most languages when it's given technical/encyclopedic texts:

quote:

Before the Edo period , the human body was used as a target of trial cutting. In the report of Louis Floy of the Warring States Period , we also use animals in Europe to test it, but there is a description that Japanese people do not trust such a way and always use the human body to perform a test slash.

There is an example of Yamada Shoemon and others who worked for the purpose of trial cutting of swords by the life of the Edo shogunate , and using the corpses of sinners at that time. Also it is known that Osaka Municipal Office and others were in charge of tasks called "stranger" (trying things). The technique of trial cutting is called "prefix" (sweet thing), and there are certain aspects that were surely hated, but it was honorable as a samurai . At the time of trial cutting, it was contested how many trunks could be slashed at once. For example, if three bodies are dead, they are called "three trunk". As far as the record is concerned, it remains as historical as far as the "seventh drum".

Bitting was carried out as a special solemn ceremony under the presence of the waistline magistrates , etc. for the general sword and the like. Originally, these toys were originally regarded as the concentric role of the town magistrate as well as beheaded , but in reality it has been customary practice for certain people to do beheading and striking before the middle of the Edo period, and Tokugawa Yoshimune 's After the era, it was regarded as the role of Yamada Asaemon. In addition, when Yamada Shoemon broke down, he received a request from a daimyo , a bannerman or the like for trial cutting, and he was sometimes decapitated using that sword . The way to do this is to set up several bamboo piles on the ground, during which the dead bodies are sandwiched between them. Do not use corpses such as monks , women, citizens , disabled people. When putting a corpse, turn the corpse of the body upward, the side of the left side down, and the back to the person who cuts the back. Put the handle of the hardwood into the sword and add the heavy lead brim . The part to slash is the first sliding (the side of the shoulder ), the second the hairless (the side of the side armpit), the third the side where the armpits are gathered, the fourth one the torso , the fifth the second torso, Sixth to eighth and seventh are the two wheels ( waist ). I tried to profit the sword by slashing the above part. The two-torso, three-torso, etc. are made by stacking two or more dead bodies and sipping them between the bamboo piles.

# ? Jul 9, 2017 05:48

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

HookedOnChthonics posted:

Yeah not to make blanket assumptions but testing blades on random people definitely smells of orientals-don't-value-life-the-same-as-us BS, and I'd be incredibly suspicious of it in any book not actually originally written for a Japanese audience.

Hell even that title doesn't pass the orientalism sniff test (those inscrutable samurai, keeping so many secrets!)

That said, when I was in Japan one of the coolest little artifacts I saw was at a preserved samurai house in Kanazawa�it was a letter, written in pretty much the tone of a thank-you note to grandma for your birthday money, thanking the owner of the house for cutting some guy's head off in battle.

I mean I read it as "feudalism is hosed yo" because it's not like Europe generally has a very high opinion of feudal lords.

# ? Jul 9, 2017 05:57

bedpan: Apr 23, 2008

On the other hand, I am finding support for the notion of random, sword testing murders by looking for the word "tsujigiri."

From Encyclopedia of Japanese Swords by Markus Sesko:

The legal implications are discussed in Taiho-Jutsu: Law and Order in the Age of the Samurai by Don Cunningham:

I also see the word used in a sentence in the work Death was His Kōan: The Samurai-Zen of Suzuki Shōsan. The book is described as "biography and views of Shosan (1579-1655), a samurai turned Zen Buddhist monk, by a noted scholar."

It is p. orientalist to instantly dismiss the claims of an act you find strange as "Orientalism." The acts of a military elite in a violent time before modern conceptions and police are often shockingly brutal and senseless, at least to us.

bedpan fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Jul 9, 2017

# ? Jul 9, 2017 06:13

GotLag: Jul 17, 2005; 食べちゃダメだよ

bewbies posted:

I wrote an article on America's divorce from its army that may or may not be of interest to the thread. There are a lot of smart people here so if you have any feedback on this please to share, I have no thin skin when it comes to my writing.

Not sure how relevant or interesting this is to you, but there's a comment on this video that comes to mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TArNqebm_Gg

quote:

All soldiers feel like this everyday.

Judging by his profile pic the commenter is also a soldier.

(Found via this review of Coriolanus, which also mentions SUPPORT ARE TROOPS and the military-civilian divide)

GotLag fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Jul 9, 2017

# ? Jul 9, 2017 06:36

darthbob88: Oct 13, 2011; YOSPOS

OwlFancier posted:

I mean I read it as "feudalism is hosed yo" because it's not like Europe generally has a very high opinion of feudal lords.

Yeah, like, honestly I wouldn't be too terribly surprised to hear about some French knight deciding to try his new sword on the first serf he saw passing by. It'd probably still be wrong, but I can believe it as easily of the French warrior class as the Japanese.

# ? Jul 9, 2017 06:55

GotLag: Jul 17, 2005; 食べちゃダメだよ

Occidentalists :rolleyes:

# ? Jul 9, 2017 07:39

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

Oops tested my rifle against a crowd of civilians on occident

# ? Jul 9, 2017 08:03

thatbastardken: Apr 23, 2010; A contract signed by a minor is not binding!

FAUXTON posted:

Oops tested my rifle against a crowd of civilians on occident

# ? Jul 9, 2017 09:09

Xerxes17: Feb 17, 2011

FAUXTON posted:

Oops tested my rifle against a crowd of civilians on occident

# ? Jul 9, 2017 09:41

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

HookedOnChthonics posted:

That said, when I was in Japan one of the coolest little artifacts I saw was at a preserved samurai house in Kanazawa�it was a letter, written in pretty much the tone of a thank-you note to grandma for your birthday money, thanking the owner of the house for cutting some guy's head off in battle.

the Holy League and the HRE did that to ottomans as well. Collected 'em, Metternich has some writings about the head trade in Vienna

# ? Jul 9, 2017 10:32

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

bedpan posted:

It is p. orientalist to instantly dismiss the claims of an act you find strange as "Orientalism." The acts of a military elite in a violent time before modern conceptions and police are often shockingly brutal and senseless, at least to us.

could be the pistols-out-the-window of Japan

# ? Jul 9, 2017 10:33

Rockopolis: Dec 21, 2012; I MAKE FUN OF QUEER STORYGAMES BECAUSE I HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO WITH MY LIFE THAN MAKE OTHER PEOPLE CRY

I can't understand these kinds of games, and not getting it bugs me almost as much as me being weird

Eh, if it's a serf away from their village it was probably lost and starving anyway. Not a good test though - no clothes to get in the way of the sword.

# ? Jul 9, 2017 10:39

Tekopo: Oct 24, 2008; When you see it, you'll shit yourself.

the worst war movie ever was Rules of Engagement, that wonderful movie where the twist ending is that shooting into a mixed crowd of armed/unarmed civilians was moral and good

# ? Jul 9, 2017 10:50

P-Mack: Nov 10, 2007

C.M. Kruger posted:

In the report of Louis Floy of the Warring States Period , we also use animals in Europe to test it

I want to chase this quote down to show to the people who insist Europeans never test cut.

# ? Jul 9, 2017 13:19

Perestroika: Apr 8, 2010

Tekopo posted:

the worst war movie ever was Rules of Engagement, that wonderful movie where the twist ending is that shooting into a mixed crowd of armed/unarmed civilians was moral and good

For another solid contender (though not Hollywood-made) there is My Honor was Loyalty. In which the director takes it upon himself to try and rehabilitate the loving Waffen-SS, of all things. You know you're in for a treat when the first thing you see in the trailer is "This trailer is not propaganda": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIwimWccIoM

Perestroika fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Jul 9, 2017

# ? Jul 9, 2017 14:21

Phobophilia: Apr 26, 2008; by Hand Knit

Perestroika posted:

For another solid contender (though not Hollywood-made) is My Honor was Loyalty. In which the director takes it upon himself to try and rehabilitate the loving Waffen-SS, of all things. You know you're in for a treat when the first thing you see in the trailer is "This trailer is not propaganda": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIwimWccIoM

hahahaha that dude is totally a pepe

# ? Jul 9, 2017 14:29

echopapa: Jun 2, 2005; El Presidente smiles upon this thread.

Nebakenezzer posted:

'Pity I wasn't told,' remarked the condemned man with wry humor. 'Otherwise I would have swallowed a couple of large stones and ruined your precious blade.'

�So much for your fuckin� canoe!�

# ? Jul 9, 2017 14:30

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# ? May 13, 2024 12:43

Tekopo: Oct 24, 2008; When you see it, you'll shit yourself.

Perestroika posted:

For another solid contender (though not Hollywood-made) there is My Honor was Loyalty. In which the director takes it upon himself to try and rehabilitate the loving Waffen-SS, of all things. You know you're in for a treat when the first thing you see in the trailer is "This trailer is not propaganda": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIwimWccIoM

Hahaha holy poo poo.

Concerning films that attempt to humanise German soldiers, what are people's thoughts on Stalingrad (the German 1993 film). I haven't seen it in years but from what I remember I don't recall anything objectionable, apart from displaying how loving lovely fighting in Stalingrad was.

# ? Jul 9, 2017 15:33

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