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Jamwad Hilder posted:Some guy in the British army had confirmed kills with a longbow in WW2. He also carried a claymore around. Ainsley McTree posted:British Army mains hanzo If at least one Imperial Japanese Army Officer who was way into Kyūdō didn't try to use his bow in the field I'd be astonished.
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# ? Jul 8, 2017 19:48 |
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# ? May 13, 2024 06:38 |
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Deptfordx posted:If at least one Imperial Japanese Army Officer who was way into Kyūdō didn't try to use his bow in the field I'd be astonished. I don't doubt some Chinese civilians got used for target practice, at least.
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# ? Jul 8, 2017 20:49 |
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During the Tokugawa Shogunate "practice killings" of random peasants when a samurai got a new sword were commonplace.
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# ? Jul 8, 2017 21:36 |
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Kemper Boyd posted:BHD was probably supposed to not be pro-war but since Ridley Scott is bad, people mostly remember it for pornographic scenes of automatic gunfire mowing down Africans. I watched this with some Egyptian friends in college when it came out and afterwards that was one quiet bus ride back to campus. I believe their opinion was something along the line 'gently caress that bullshit movie'.
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# ? Jul 8, 2017 22:04 |
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Nebakenezzer posted:During the Tokugawa Shogunate "practice killings" of random peasants when a samurai got a new sword were commonplace.
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# ? Jul 8, 2017 22:06 |
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Siivola posted:Y'know, I've heard that so many times but I've never seen anyone go into detail. OK You have a newly-forged sword, and you really really want to try it out So you and your samurai buddies go out, and find some lower class person. (Feudal Japan had a caste system, so I mean literally lower-caste than a Samurai-class.) You then act belligerent to this lower class person, or trick them into, the broadest conceivable sense, to insult you. This gives you a pretext for you to try out your new katana.and kill them.
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# ? Jul 8, 2017 22:16 |
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Not saying you're wrong, but have you got a source for that actually being "commonplace" though? Honor killings were definitely attested to occur (against Europeans even, in one famous incident after Japan opened up) but I'm kinda skeptical that they were as ubiquitous as is commonly portrayed.
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# ? Jul 8, 2017 22:24 |
I was always led to believe the tests were on prisoners.
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# ? Jul 8, 2017 22:49 |
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Disinterested posted:I was always led to believe the tests were on prisoners. And, during WW2, against Chinese civilians.
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# ? Jul 8, 2017 22:57 |
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Koramei posted:Not saying you're wrong, but have you got a source for that actually being "commonplace" though? Honor killings were definitely attested to occur (against Europeans even, in one famous incident after Japan opened up) but I'm kinda skeptical that they were as ubiquitous as is commonly portrayed. I'm looking through two books of mine to see if I can find a reference. Here's a mention of sword-testing: quote:"It was the practice in feudal Japan to test the sharpness and resistence of new swords owned by warriors of the upper category and ranks upon the bodies of executed criminals. In certain instances, usually for influential personages who could afford it, the test was carried out on live bodies. It is recorded that a thief who had been sentenced to decapitation, noticing the presence of an offical sword tester and his witnesses among the police officers, asked him 'Are you going to test that blade on me?' 'Yes' was the reply. 'I am going to try for a diagonal cut from the shoulder down.' 'Pity I wasn't told,' remarked the condemned man with wry humor. 'Otherwise I would have swallowed a couple of large stones and ruined your precious blade.' Secrets of the Samurai, p150-151
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 00:22 |
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That seems a lot more reasonable.
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 00:29 |
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Here's another. The topic is practicing surprise attacks with a sword:quote:"Many a warrior and scores of unsuspecting heimin (regardless of sex or age) fell beneath a sudden arc of steel slashing through the air either to take professional advantage of the possibility of tactical surprise when facing a potentially dangerous opponent -- or merely to test the edge of a katana on a human body, in what became known as 'crossroad-cutting', 'practice murder', 'practice killings', or 'sword-testing murders.' ibid, p. 276 There's some refrences quoted there, I can dig them out if you like
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 00:37 |
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P-Mack posted:I don't doubt some Chinese civilians got used for target practice, at least. well that's less fun
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 00:56 |
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Cythereal posted:And, during WW2, against Chinese civilians. And Commonwealth prisoners of war!
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 01:19 |
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Nebakenezzer posted:Secrets of the Samurai, p150-151 Book's written by a hack.
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 01:22 |
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Book's written by a hack. Hacks plural? The book has two authors. e: https://www.amazon.ca/Secrets-Samur...+of+the+samurai Nebakenezzer fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Jul 9, 2017 |
# ? Jul 9, 2017 02:01 |
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Personally I'm skeptical of any history book that costs less than 200 dollars e: incidentally, thanks to whoever suggested I check university libraries for journal access (and for all the other replies!), I feel pretty stupid for not thinking to do that and I'm lucky enough to have a few right near me. I've downloaded like 100 now & feel very dirty about it Koramei fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Jul 9, 2017 |
# ? Jul 9, 2017 02:20 |
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Nebakenezzer posted:Hacks plural? The book has two authors. I googled them dude, it's a husband-wife team of aikido aficianados with no academic credentials Hack maybe calls them out for being more malicious than they are, but they're still not historians. Slim Jim Pickens fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Jul 9, 2017 |
# ? Jul 9, 2017 02:38 |
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Yeah not to make blanket assumptions but testing blades on random people definitely smells of orientals-don't-value-life-the-same-as-us BS, and I'd be incredibly suspicious of it in any book not actually originally written for a Japanese audience. Hell even that title doesn't pass the orientalism sniff test (those inscrutable samurai, keeping so many secrets!) That said, when I was in Japan one of the coolest little artifacts I saw was at a preserved samurai house in Kanazawa—it was a letter, written in pretty much the tone of a thank-you note to grandma for your birthday money, thanking the owner of the house for cutting some guy's head off in battle.
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 02:59 |
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I suspect the proper political context of those stories is not orientalism but the suppression of the samurai class following the Meji restoration.
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 03:03 |
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Fangz posted:I suspect the proper political context of those stories is not orientalism but the suppression of the samurai class following the Meji restoration. the orientalism is coming from inside the house!
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 03:18 |
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:I googled them dude, it's a husband-wife team of aikido aficianados with no academic credentials Fair enough. The "practice killing" does cite two different sources, (I did notice both of them had western names) I'll pull 'em out tomorrow to see what you guys think. It might be orientalism, though if you believe the story I posted earlier, at least it was in the ballpark as to what the Japanese were historically doing.
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 04:36 |
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Here's the Japanese wiki pages for the relevant terms/topics. (yeah I know, wiki, but they've got citations) Crossroad killing: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%BE%BB%E6%96%AC Cutting Permit: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%88%87%E6%8D%A8%E5%BE%A1%E5%85%8D Sword Testing: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%A9%A6%E3%81%97%E6%96%AC%E3%82%8A Nowadays Google Translate works decently for most languages when it's given technical/encyclopedic texts: quote:Before the Edo period , the human body was used as a target of trial cutting. In the report of Louis Floy of the Warring States Period , we also use animals in Europe to test it, but there is a description that Japanese people do not trust such a way and always use the human body to perform a test slash.
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 05:48 |
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HookedOnChthonics posted:Yeah not to make blanket assumptions but testing blades on random people definitely smells of orientals-don't-value-life-the-same-as-us BS, and I'd be incredibly suspicious of it in any book not actually originally written for a Japanese audience. I mean I read it as "feudalism is hosed yo" because it's not like Europe generally has a very high opinion of feudal lords.
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 05:57 |
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On the other hand, I am finding support for the notion of random, sword testing murders by looking for the word "tsujigiri." From Encyclopedia of Japanese Swords by Markus Sesko: The legal implications are discussed in Taiho-Jutsu: Law and Order in the Age of the Samurai by Don Cunningham: I also see the word used in a sentence in the work Death was His Kōan: The Samurai-Zen of Suzuki Shōsan. The book is described as "biography and views of Shosan (1579-1655), a samurai turned Zen Buddhist monk, by a noted scholar." It is p. orientalist to instantly dismiss the claims of an act you find strange as "Orientalism." The acts of a military elite in a violent time before modern conceptions and police are often shockingly brutal and senseless, at least to us. bedpan fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Jul 9, 2017 |
# ? Jul 9, 2017 06:13 |
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bewbies posted:I wrote an article on America's divorce from its army that may or may not be of interest to the thread. There are a lot of smart people here so if you have any feedback on this please to share, I have no thin skin when it comes to my writing. Not sure how relevant or interesting this is to you, but there's a comment on this video that comes to mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TArNqebm_Gg quote:All soldiers feel like this everyday. (Found via this review of Coriolanus, which also mentions SUPPORT ARE TROOPS and the military-civilian divide) GotLag fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Jul 9, 2017 |
# ? Jul 9, 2017 06:36 |
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OwlFancier posted:I mean I read it as "feudalism is hosed yo" because it's not like Europe generally has a very high opinion of feudal lords.
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 06:55 |
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Occidentalists
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 07:39 |
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Oops tested my rifle against a crowd of civilians on occident
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 08:03 |
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FAUXTON posted:Oops tested my rifle against a crowd of civilians on occident
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 09:09 |
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FAUXTON posted:Oops tested my rifle against a crowd of civilians on occident
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 09:41 |
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HookedOnChthonics posted:That said, when I was in Japan one of the coolest little artifacts I saw was at a preserved samurai house in Kanazawa—it was a letter, written in pretty much the tone of a thank-you note to grandma for your birthday money, thanking the owner of the house for cutting some guy's head off in battle.
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 10:32 |
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bedpan posted:It is p. orientalist to instantly dismiss the claims of an act you find strange as "Orientalism." The acts of a military elite in a violent time before modern conceptions and police are often shockingly brutal and senseless, at least to us.
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 10:33 |
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Eh, if it's a serf away from their village it was probably lost and starving anyway. Not a good test though - no clothes to get in the way of the sword.
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 10:39 |
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the worst war movie ever was Rules of Engagement, that wonderful movie where the twist ending is that shooting into a mixed crowd of armed/unarmed civilians was moral and good
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 10:50 |
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C.M. Kruger posted:In the report of Louis Floy of the Warring States Period , we also use animals in Europe to test it
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 13:19 |
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Tekopo posted:the worst war movie ever was Rules of Engagement, that wonderful movie where the twist ending is that shooting into a mixed crowd of armed/unarmed civilians was moral and good For another solid contender (though not Hollywood-made) there is My Honor was Loyalty. In which the director takes it upon himself to try and rehabilitate the loving Waffen-SS, of all things. You know you're in for a treat when the first thing you see in the trailer is "This trailer is not propaganda": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIwimWccIoM Perestroika fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Jul 9, 2017 |
# ? Jul 9, 2017 14:21 |
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Perestroika posted:For another solid contender (though not Hollywood-made) is My Honor was Loyalty. In which the director takes it upon himself to try and rehabilitate the loving Waffen-SS, of all things. You know you're in for a treat when the first thing you see in the trailer is "This trailer is not propaganda": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIwimWccIoM hahahaha that dude is totally a pepe
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 14:29 |
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Nebakenezzer posted:'Pity I wasn't told,' remarked the condemned man with wry humor. 'Otherwise I would have swallowed a couple of large stones and ruined your precious blade.' “So much for your fuckin’ canoe!”
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 14:30 |
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# ? May 13, 2024 06:38 |
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Perestroika posted:For another solid contender (though not Hollywood-made) there is My Honor was Loyalty. In which the director takes it upon himself to try and rehabilitate the loving Waffen-SS, of all things. You know you're in for a treat when the first thing you see in the trailer is "This trailer is not propaganda": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIwimWccIoM Concerning films that attempt to humanise German soldiers, what are people's thoughts on Stalingrad (the German 1993 film). I haven't seen it in years but from what I remember I don't recall anything objectionable, apart from displaying how loving lovely fighting in Stalingrad was.
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# ? Jul 9, 2017 15:33 |