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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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Autism Sneaks posted:if you're going to drum up this narrative of how the natives are just too dumb and poor to do industry regardless of whether white people and their employees rape the land, the least you can do is cite the National Review article you're parroting https://twitter.com/TAMGAdesigns/status/884525016783745029 doesn't help when we dump goods there undercutting any possible domestic industry from developing
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Jul 11, 2017 03:25
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ISIS CURES TROONS posted:I don't see what's so racist about saying that African countries should import outside expertise to improve their resource extraction industries and economies, and that their educational systems are not currently up to developing the expertise to do it themselves. Those arn't exactly controversial statements. These are developing economies, after all. Thank goodness "ISIS CURES TROONS" is here to tell us what is and isn't bigoted.
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Jul 11, 2017 03:50
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:It's not that hard to understand? colombia, africa
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Jul 11, 2017 03:52
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:https://twitter.com/TAMGAdesigns/status/884525016783745029 doesn't help when we dump goods there undercutting any possible domestic industry from developing That's good but Paul Kagame is still responsible for the Congolese War
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Jul 11, 2017 03:52
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:That's good but Paul Kagame is still responsible for the Congolese War so is your point that paul kagame is personally responsible for western mnc dumping of cheap consumer goods thus limiting the ability of on the ground enterprises to develop ....no? you gonna respond to that point, person who thinks colombia is in africa
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Jul 11, 2017 03:59
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stone cold posted:so is your point that paul kagame is personally responsible for western mnc dumping of cheap consumer goods thus limiting the ability of on the ground enterprises to develop I never said Colombia was in Africa I compared my experience with foreigners working extracting resources in Colombia (a country with much better education that probably any African country) and Africa.
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Jul 11, 2017 04:11
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Tangentially, I've always found it weird that dumping products is a thing, even if it definitely is because of capitalism. If everything was centrally planned, having importers sell cheap goods or whatever wouldn't be a problem, because economic development is not the result of private interests, but of public investment. But since capitalism is a thing, you have to grow local manufactuters (capitalists) first, with 'easy' products, before you can shift to anything else. Just another one of those counter-intuitive things about market ideologies.
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Jul 11, 2017 04:16
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:https://twitter.com/TAMGAdesigns/status/884525016783745029 doesn't help when we dump goods there undercutting any possible domestic industry from developing It's a good thing that poor Africans will pay more for clothing because this will create more job opportunities in sweatshop textile production, I guess?
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Jul 11, 2017 04:23
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JeffersonClay posted:It's a good thing that poor Africans will pay more for clothing because this will create more job opportunities in sweatshop textile production, I guess? jesus christ just read bad samaritans
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Jul 11, 2017 04:27
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https://twitter.com/AP/status/884515837847142401 https://twitter.com/samknight1/status/884614888701743104
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Jul 11, 2017 04:28
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look guys, I've talked to several Halliburton and Blackwater contractors and they all agree that the problem with the Iraqis is that they lack a virtue of personal responsibility, and that Muslim culture is fundamentally incompatible with science rationality, and civic society.
Shear Modulus fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 04:28
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:https://twitter.com/AP/status/884515837847142401 This is how we're gonna win. The Dems need to back stuff like this.
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Jul 11, 2017 04:30
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JeffersonClay posted:It's a good thing that poor Africans will pay more for clothing because this will create more job opportunities in sweatshop textile production, I guess? Whatever will we do with all this superbowl loser swag?
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Jul 11, 2017 04:30
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JeffersonClay posted:It's a good thing that poor Africans will pay more for clothing because this will create more job opportunities in sweatshop textile production, I guess? dumping aka exporting goods at bizarrely low prices is a legit way to damage foreign economies and make them artificially dependent on imports and i doubt that the companies exporting second-hand clothing to african nations pay/charge really anything for the clothing they get, so yeah the linked article suggests pretty strongly that some african nations could have decent textile industries if they weren't continually flooded with free second-hand MAGA shirts and poo poo
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Jul 11, 2017 04:34
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I bet there are a bunch of African kids wearing Hilldog victory shirts lol.
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Jul 11, 2017 04:41
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Those African kids are doing our job creators a great service in generating massive charitable tax deductions
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Jul 11, 2017 04:43
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The Kingfish posted:I bet there are a bunch of African kids wearing Hilldog victory shirts lol. Those poor bastards.
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Jul 11, 2017 04:54
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:dumping aka exporting goods at bizarrely low prices is a legit way to damage foreign economies and make them artificially dependent on imports My cursory research into Rwandan labor law suggests these new textile jobs will be in sweatshops. Are you suggesting sweatshop labor might be an improvement for some, or might be tolerable as a temporary condition in a developing economy? I'm happy to concede that dumping is bad and that it might make sense for a developing country to penalize imports to allow the development of nascent industry. But that might look a little callous when you're talking about basic human necessities like clothing or food. How comfortable are you raising the price of food in Africa to support the development of African farming?
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Jul 11, 2017 05:44
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Is there any kind of textile mill that isn't a "sweatshop?"
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Jul 11, 2017 05:47
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JeffersonClay posted:My cursory research into Rwandan labor law suggests these new textile jobs will be in sweatshops. Are you suggesting sweatshop labor might be an improvement for some, or might be tolerable as a temporary condition in a developing economy? that would depend on the labor laws themselves and whether rwanda is prepared to use industry as a means to better its population rather than exploit their labor for profit ideally, textile workers would earn enough of a wage for not-lovely hours to live decently, but that comes down to poo poo like how thoroughly companies are allowed to abuse their workers, and whether their workers are allowed to organize JeffersonClay posted:I'm happy to concede that dumping is bad and that it might make sense for a developing country to penalize imports to allow the development of nascent industry. But that might look a little callous when you're talking about basic human necessities like clothing or food. How comfortable are you raising the price of food in Africa to support the development of African farming? depends, yo -- for instance, if food is already bizarrely cheap and raising the price would have little/no impact on the public's ability to feed themselves and would stimulate economic development to the point that the government can afford to do other things (like provide healthcare) then that would be awesome on the other side of the spectrum, for a country's government to tell its people "okay we're banning food imports from china so you'd better fuckin know how to hoe, HAVE FUN" is obviously totally lovely i'd think there's a middle ground that mitigates harmful short-term impacts and maximizes long-term benefits, though that gets into the nitty-gritty of lawmaking Pittsburgh Lambic fucked around with this message at 06:26 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 06:21
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Those are good answers to hard questions. I'm making some assumptions about Rwanda when I suggest poverty there is pervasive and any price increases on goods like food or clothing will be immediately felt by some of the population. Likewise, labor protections are sparse and the state lacks the means for pervasive enforcement so the likelihood that these textile jobs will be non-exploitative is low. I still think there's a case that Rwanda should do what it's doing, but I don't think you can make that case without accepting sweatshops are sometimes better than the alternatives and the poor will be harmed in the short term by higher prices.
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Jul 11, 2017 06:33
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Having sweatshops instead of foreign exploitation is probably a bit better than sweatshops as a part of foreign exploitation. With most of those excess clothes being dumped on the country having been made in foreign-owned sweatshops in the first place. Also means the country can establish its own fashions and culture rather than wearing the unwanted cast-offs of foreign countries.
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Jul 11, 2017 06:44
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JeffersonClay posted:It's a good thing that poor Africans will pay more for clothing because this will create more job opportunities in sweatshop textile production, I guess? Its good that the money they earn will stay in their country.
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Jul 11, 2017 07:03
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local textile manufacturing is not equivalent to foreign owned sweatshops, not in the least because local labor is going to have a much easier time protecting their rights against exploitation from such businesses, then they are against foreign multinationals. gently caress off jeffersonclay
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Jul 11, 2017 07:15
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Transplanting this from the Russia investigation thread. As always, JC is holding firm to his belief that the Democrats do not need to move significantly leftward to win in 2018 or 2020:JeffersonClay posted:Yes, you said that, and you were wrong. I've said it's a big loving deal and should be treated as such, and you are extremely foolish to disagree. Dore is a moron and Tezzora is a gimmick. There are a lot of leftists who believe in the investigation's validity, but also think the Dems need to spend the lion's share of their time talking about their positive vision for their voters' lives. You, personally, have concern trolled that idea every step of the way since even before November. You even made a thread about how the Dems only needed to focus on how bad Republicans are, and then coast to victory. You are the Panera Bread strategy incarnate: delusional, out-of-touch, and without even a whiff of political insight.
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Jul 11, 2017 07:17
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rudatron posted:local textile manufacturing is not equivalent to foreign owned sweatshops, not in the least because local labor is going to have a much easier time protecting their rights against exploitation from such businesses, then they are against foreign multinationals. Wow I did not expect you to defend sweatshop labor but sometimes it's the best we can hope for I guess, and sweatshops are really a spectrum of exploitation anyway. At least these poor exploited workers are being exploited by their own countrymen.
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Jul 11, 2017 07:24
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The only one who's actually in favour of sweatshops here is you, buddy, so I don't really get why you're even trying.
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Jul 11, 2017 07:58
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JeffersonClay posted:It's a good thing that poor Africans will pay more for clothing because this will create more job opportunities in sweatshop textile production, I guess?  JeffersonClay posted:Wow I did not expect you to defend sweatshop labor but sometimes it's the best we can hope for I guess, and sweatshops are really a spectrum of exploitation anyway. At least these poor exploited workers are being exploited by their own countrymen. 
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Jul 11, 2017 08:17
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Maybe JeffersonClay is just upset that Africans are trying to provide for themselves the right environment to develop a non-criminal culture, rather than waiting around for white people to do it for them.
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Jul 11, 2017 08:21
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JeffersonClay posted:Wow I did not expect you to defend sweatshop labor but sometimes it's the best we can hope for I guess, and sweatshops are really a spectrum of exploitation anyway. At least these poor exploited workers are being exploited by their own countrymen. Do I really have to spend the effort to go through your post history to find the many many many times you've trumpeted sweatshop labor (as long as the beneficiaries of sweatshop profits are the Right Kind of civilized white people, apparently) or can we just pretend I did. You're on record loving sweatshops so much and QQing about how price increases at Wal-Mart hurt the poor (that neoliberalism has made unemployed) and thus multinational corporations must never ever pay Bangladeshis a fair wage and provide safe working conditions because "muh low prices QQ" Anyway, if you want to destroy local industries by dumping a bunch of cheap goods on their market, you're going to need to provide something to replace the income of all the people who lose their jobs and businesses, something better than "but look at the low prices which you can no longer afford." Basic income, or public investment in another industry or something. Otherwise you're just committing the standard liberal mistake "well once we automate away all the work, we'll have paradise on earth, btw I hope you inherited a robot factory because if not then you should have thought of that before all your jobs went to robots, stop whining that you have no money to afford all the cheap food and housing that you're not allowed to have without the money that you're not allowed to get" VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 08:46
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Also, you can say that if it anything it is absolutely necessary for African nations to attempt to try ISI at this point even if there are higher retail prices. African industries are not going to be able to compete (in the beginning) with other industrializing nations, and they absolutely need to protect their internal markets unless they going to be stuck in a cycle of resource production and aid. Rwanda's (for example) are almost entirely mining/extraction or agriculturally related, and if they keep up with their current export patterns then development is going to be relatively limited especially since they have a trade brutal trade deficit a country like Rwanda simply can not afford. If your vision is an absolutely brutal world of "trade through survival of the fittest" it isn't surprising many of the weaker participants of that struggle try to find a leg up. Rwanada's trade deficit is something around 14% of its gdp, it is no surprise it is struggling. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 08:58
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I just invented a robot that does accounting forensics, or whatever your job is, for free JeffersonClay. You are now unemployed permanently, but don't worry, if you ever need someone to examine your books you can get it done for next to nothing, everybody wins! Right? Oh, what's that? You say you require other goods and services to live, which you can't get without the money from your job? Hm well the market knows best, so you must not want those other goods that bad since you're choosing not to purchase them now that you have no money. You want your job back? Don't be selfish, there are so many poor around nowadays who can't afford a price increase on accountants. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 09:04
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JeffersonClay posted:Wow I did not expect you to defend sweatshop labor but sometimes it's the best we can hope for I guess, and sweatshops are really a spectrum of exploitation anyway. At least these poor exploited workers are being exploited by their own countrymen. By contrast, multinationals setting up shop in improverished areas to take advantage of destitution, contribute nothing other than the pittance of a wage, and those profits of production are then siphoned overseas. It's pure extraction. There is no comparison.
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Jul 11, 2017 09:06
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JeffersonClay posted:Wow I did not expect you to defend sweatshop labor but sometimes it's the best we can hope for I guess, and sweatshops are really a spectrum of exploitation anyway. At least these poor exploited workers are being exploited by their own countrymen. Protectionism is the one thing that can avoid sweatshops because companies serving a domestic market protected by tariffs cannot flee to a less well off country when wages start to rise. Which means governments can actually regulate the companies and set minimum required wages and worker protections. And the workers can unionize, strike and affect their labor conditions, again without the threat of multinationals just packing up if they don't get their rattle. Meanwhile countries without these policies cannot do any of this, and workers often face a government hostile to their intention of improving working conditions due to said governments need of foreign investment.
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Jul 11, 2017 09:38
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JC hates all those things tho, that's why he wants multinational corporations running the sweatshops and threatening the government into sending out the army to crack skulls any time there's a whisper of unionization or agitation for health and safety not to mention fair pay.
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Jul 11, 2017 09:41
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VitalSigns posted:JC hates all those things tho, that's why he wants multinational corporations running the sweatshops and threatening the government into sending out the army to crack skulls any time there's a whisper of unionization or agitation for health and safety not to mention fair pay. Well let's be honest that comparative advantage is how the West largely stays in power in the first place, especially since Bretton Woods. After the Second Wolrd War, the US made its absolute priority to re-prioritize trade to Western Europe and then it closest allies in East Asia. The US was willing to accept "comparative advantage" io manufacturing in these countries since it served a political purpose. In comparison, Africa was completely ignored except its raw resources. When China was prioritized (in order to solidify the Sino-Soviet split) again Africa was largely ignored. Ultimately, Africa was never given strategic priority by the US and eventually the rest of the West, and the end result is predictable. If anything their one shot at this point is to drive down imports as much as they can while achieving what industrialization they can. Textiles is something I am sure that can be done in Africa, maybe eventually they can get to higher tier manufacturing with enough time. (Also, if Le Pen/Fillon (as much as they suck) was saying the exact same garbage that Macron just said was everyone would be going nuts. It is pretty interesting to compare Fillon and Macron since both are clearly racist and xenophobic, anti-worker and have a hard on for tax cuts to help the wealthiest.) quote:Fillon has been described as a reformist liberal. For many observers,[who?] he is more liberal than his mentor Philippe Séguin.[20][21] A few months after taking office as prime minister, he declared that he was "at the head of a state that is bankrupt financially, [...] which for 15 years has been in chronic deficit, [...] that has not voted a balanced budget for 25 years." He then committed publicly to "bring the state budget to balance by the end of the five-year",[22] and reiterated this promise in 2012[23] and proposed a referendum on registration of the fiscal golden rule in the Constitution.[24] In defending a policy of controlling the deficit, Fillon is in favour of abolishing the wealth tax, which he considers one of the causes of the debt of France. According to him, this tax discourages foreign entrepreneurs.[25] This tax would be offset by the creation of a top slice of income tax to 50%, which would be included in the CSG.
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Jul 11, 2017 11:27
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JeffersonClay posted:It's a good thing that poor Africans will pay more for clothing because this will create more job opportunities in sweatshop textile production, I guess? wow just wow you're literally the worst. you love sweatshops as uplifting people, so i dunno why you consider this a negative at all (aside from you just being massively disingenuous) Condiv fucked around with this message at 12:04 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 12:01
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:It certainly can if you have institutions that are capable of teaching what needs to be taught. They don't need to have the institutions. They could have a program to send kids to western institutions for training and come back. Or to have people trained by foreigners they bring in to teach specific skills. They could require foreign companies to train local replacements in exchange for some ownership share in the local company that will take over. There are any number of things that could be done to enable African countries to extract their own resources if the will was there.
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Jul 11, 2017 12:04
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Futuresight posted:They don't need to have the institutions. They could have a program to send kids to western institutions for training and come back. Or to have people trained by foreigners they bring in to teach specific skills. They could require foreign companies to train local replacements in exchange for some ownership share in the local company that will take over. There are any number of things that could be done to enable African countries to extract their own resources if the will was there. and on the flip side, there are plenty of things these multinationals can do to hold african countries back if their objective is to just extract their resources forever. and guess what their objective is!
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Jul 11, 2017 12:06
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Futuresight posted:They don't need to have the institutions. They could have a program to send kids to western institutions for training and come back. Or to have people trained by foreigners they bring in to teach specific skills. They could require foreign companies to train local replacements in exchange for some ownership share in the local company that will take over. There are any number of things that could be done to enable African countries to extract their own resources if the will was there. Yeah, they do, otherwise, they will have an obvious brain drain (which they do already) as their best and brightest just stay where-ever and try every trick they can to not move back to where they came from. It doesn't work. Having "Western advisors" come in may be necessary for getting industries up and running, but these countries should take their industrial expertise and use it for their own needs. The best thing for Africa? Develop their own educational and physical infrastructure, and try to find any way to move up the manufacturing tree beyond raw resources. It is very clear that mining and agriculture are not the future, and as long as they get stuck in those sectors they are going to suffer. (Btw while many African countries should be wary of China (since China only cares about its own internal stability), the infrastructure development provided by China could very be well crucial for much of Africa as they try to get a foothold on industrialization.) Ardennes fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 12:17
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