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I don't think there's a single Venezuelan that will tell you corruption will go away the moment Maduro and his cronies are out. It's all about orders of magnitude though, never in the history of Venezuela had somebody pocketed billions of dollars, until Chavez came along. They weren't taking just enough to not raise suspicion, motherfuckers like Rafael Ramirez stole enough to make a dent in the loving GDP. Those are the guys we want out, and whatever comes in after them, so long as it's nobody in their camp, it can't possibly be worse than them.
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Jul 13, 2017 11:28
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I honestly don't really see a path forward to solving this crisis without UN intervention and peacekeepers flooding the country.
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Jul 13, 2017 11:47
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The REAL victims here are the white people living in rich countries who have to listen to these fascist Venezuelans constantly complain about dumb stuff like "Waaah! There's no food! Waaah! We don't have basic medicine! Waaah! My family members have been robbed and killed by heavily armed gangs working for the government!"
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Jul 13, 2017 12:01
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Bob le Moche posted:I know this is very difficult for you all to understand but please do continue paying attention to what happens in Venezuela after regime change and there's a possibility you might get it It's funny because you could say this same thing about literal colonialism to promote it too. "Look what happened after we gave the blacks control of Rhodesia — they turned around and robbed the poor blacks even more than the whites before them!" Now you have as many Ian Smith apologists as you have Maduro apologists. So regime change (including by elections) should never happen on the chances that the next regime is even worse than the former one. Got it.
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Jul 13, 2017 12:03
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Sergg posted:The REAL victims here are the white people living in rich countries who have to listen to these fascist Venezuelans constantly complain about dumb stuff like "Waaah! There's no food! Waaah! We don't have basic medicine! Waaah! My family members have been robbed and killed by heavily armed gangs working for the government!" Well yeah, they are the ones having to do strenuous mental gymnastics every single day. I mean, I bet they're even forced to briefly consider that they may have been incorrect about something.
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Jul 13, 2017 12:32
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Oh boy, I'm already looking forward to the waves of Le Moches coming out of the woodwork after a regime change and having a sudden realization about everything that's wrong with the country: "Hey guys, did you know there's hardly any food down there, people are dying from preventable diseases due to lack of medicine, and there are paramilitary gangs running around? We never saw that stuff happening last week when Maduro was still in power!". As Chuck mentioned earlier, this week's been pretty calm so far. There's going to be a small night-time 'protest' today, but those usually end up being more like vigils and the National Guard tends to leave them alone. On Saturday, there's going to be a push to mobilize people to vote on Sunday, but there are no more major protests planned at the moment. We're all waiting to see what happens on Sunday. I've seen a couple of MUD interviews saying they're expecting a massive turnout, but the guys keep shooting themselves in the foot by throwing out wild numbers like 12 or 14 million people. For comparison's sake, the MUD got almost 8 million votes during the 2015 parliamentary elections (with a participation of approximately 75%) so aiming for double that is just plain dumb. If we match or come close to that turnout, it'll already be a huge moral victory and it will give the National Assembly the legitimacy they need to move forward. What happens after that is also up in the air. The third question of the vote asks voters if they agree the National Assembly should move forward to renew public powers and call for elections but how do you enforce that? I'm assuming the first move will be to appoint a new Supreme Court and Electoral Council and then go from there, but in the meantime, Chavismo will still be planning its Constituent Assembly. If the military doesn't budge, which I can't imagine they'll do unless the vote is truly massive, I can't imagine we're going to see any meaningful change.
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Jul 13, 2017 13:45
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Turns out there's a huge amount of places all over the world where you can vote on the 16th. There's even one in Copenhagen, which means I'll likely be able to participate.
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Jul 13, 2017 14:28
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GreyjoyBastard posted:the thread just isn't the same without a shitbag implying that criticizing Maduro is fascist. The thread seems to have no problems with a "white supremacist" red text equating brown protesters assaulting a bunch of MPs to nazis murdering leftists, or with "ghost of mussolini" making jokes about dropping them from helicopters. I guess all you very progressive and concerned pro-intervention folks really will accept all the help you can get against the Maduro regime, huh? Such a good faith and principled opposition. Saladman posted:It's funny because you could say this same thing about literal colonialism to promote it too. "Look what happened after we gave the blacks control of Rhodesia — they turned around and robbed the poor blacks even more than the whites before them!" Now you have as many Ian Smith apologists as you have Maduro apologists.
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Jul 13, 2017 16:16
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Bob le Moche posted:The thread seems to have no problems with a "white supremacist" red text equating brown protesters assaulting a bunch of MPs to nazis murdering leftists, or with "ghost of mussolini" making jokes about dropping them from helicopters. I guess all you very progressive and concerned pro-intervention folks really will accept all the help you can get against the Maduro regime, huh? Such a good faith and principled opposition. Pro-intervention? Did I miss something?
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Jul 13, 2017 16:23
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Glad I wasn't the only one.
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Jul 13, 2017 16:26
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Bob le Moche posted:The thread seems to have no problems with a "white supremacist" red text equating brown protesters assaulting a bunch of MPs to nazis murdering leftists Can you please tell me what makes the collectivos "brown" compared to opposition?
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Jul 13, 2017 16:32
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dublish posted:Pro-intervention? Did I miss something? Yeah, the part when Bob implied he is one of those people who assumes that anyone who does not 100% defend Maduro to the very end is a filthy capitalist who literally lusts for poor minorities to be gunned down in the streets. EDIT: Bro Dad posted:Can you please tell me what makes the collectivos "brown" compared to opposition? People like Bob usually don't respond to questions like this because it makes them look like the idiots they are, so I'll try to field it on their behalf so you can make up your own mind: quote:Venezuela is exactly like the US. The rich are always white people who want to rule the country again after having been thrown out by the natives for corruption and massive handouts to the corrupt, decadent west. They have duped the masses into thinking that white nationalist rule is good. I hope that insight into the mind of Maduro apologists was illuminating. ComradeCosmobot fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Jul 13, 2017 |
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Jul 13, 2017 16:33
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ComradeCosmobot posted:Yeah, the part when Bob implied he is one of those people who assumes that anyone who does not 100% defend Maduro to the very end is a filthy capitalist who literally lusts for poor minorities to be gunned down in the streets. Which is pretty fantastic given the whole thing where the government and its militias are the only ones gunning down the poors in the streets.
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Jul 13, 2017 16:38
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Bro Dad posted:Can you please tell me what makes the collectivos "brown" compared to opposition? Can you point out where I said anything about whether the opposition was brown or not?
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Jul 13, 2017 16:45
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Since when is this a race thing? Bob, have you ever looked at a Venezuelan? 2/3rds of the population are mixed race. How the gently caress is this a race thing? Have you ever looked at a picture of Rafael Ramirez, or Tareck El Aissami? They're some of the highest ranking Chavistas and they're far whiter than any of their constituents. Dude literally became a repeat of Borneo Jimmy, get the gently caress out you imbecile.
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Jul 13, 2017 16:46
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fnox posted:Since when is this a race thing? Bob, have you ever looked at a Venezuelan? 2/3rds of the population are mixed race. How the gently caress is this a race thing? Have you ever looked at a picture of Rafael Ramirez, or Tareck El Aissami? They're some of the highest ranking Chavistas and they're far whiter than any of their constituents. It seems it's a race thing since I brought up the post from the "white supremacist" red text. Wow I seem to have hit a nerve here, you folks are getting super fragile about this.
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Jul 13, 2017 16:48
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Bob le Moche posted:It seems it's a race thing since I brought up the post from the "white supremacist" red text. Wow I seem to have hit a nerve here, you folks are getting super fragile about this. Yes, because it's loving untrue and demonstrates how you are a complete and absolute ignoramus on anything related to the topic. You keep trying to prove to Venezuelans like myself and others in this thread, that being against the government that has ruined our lives and the lives of our families, is somehow a bad thing. Your repeated claims that you're some sort of expert on the subject only get more laughable the more you post this insane, absurd poo poo.
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Jul 13, 2017 16:55
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Bob le Moche posted:It seems it's a race thing since I brought up the post from the "white supremacist" red text. Wow I seem to have hit a nerve here, you folks are getting super fragile about this. GO AWAY I don't give a gently caress about you or your moronic opinions; you're doing nothing but embarrassing yourself. But you are getting in the way of actual discussion of actual events. So again, gently caress off and either grow up or die. Mozi fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Jul 13, 2017 |
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Jul 13, 2017 16:57
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Henrique Capriles (the governor of Miranda state and one of the opposition top dogs) tweeted out a video yesterday. The CCTV video captured the moments that National Guard soldiers broke into an apartment complex in Carrizal, Miranda state and started firing their shotguns up a flight of stairs. At the end of the video, the soldiers destroy two security cameras in an attempt to cover their tracks: https://twitter.com/hcapriles/status/885319856052203522 There was also quite a bit of unrest in Lecheria, Anzoategui state all throughout the afternoon yesterday: https://twitter.com/ElpulsoVzla/status/885329406314598404 The two videos below captured the moment that protesters used a truck to cover their advance on a group of National Guard soldiers at the end of a road: https://twitter.com/305_0892/status/885443414367629312 https://twitter.com/305_0892/status/885445173064474626 Bob le Moche posted:I know this is very difficult for you all to understand but please do continue paying attention to what happens in Venezuela after regime change and there's a possibility you might get it For someone who can't keep quiet about how much they understand history and the nuances of colonialism, you seem really adverse to having to learn even the most basic facts about Venezuela today.
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Jul 13, 2017 16:57
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Bob le Moche posted:Yes, *you* could say that because you don't understand the first thing about what imperialism or colonialism are, have no conception of history, and get all your info from imperialist propaganda oulets and racist expats. I know you probably feel really clever with your post but by making explicit the fact that you are completely incapable of telling the difference between those two situations, you are in fact putting the finger exactly on what is wrong with your perspective and on where your own ignorance lies. This is ironic, coming from someone who seemingly gets all of their info from TeleSur. Do tell, where are you getting the down and dirty real news about Venezuela? Yes, you're right on the spot though, as I do get all of my news from Voice of America's Latin America broadcast.
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Jul 13, 2017 16:58
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fnox posted:Yes, because it's loving untrue
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Jul 13, 2017 16:58
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Bob le Moche posted:with "ghost of mussolini" making jokes about dropping them from helicopters. I guess all you very progressive and concerned pro-intervention folks really will accept all the help you can get against the Maduro regime, huh? Such a good faith and principled opposition.
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Jul 13, 2017 16:59
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Bob le Moche posted:What is loving untrue, what are you even talking about??? Everything, everything you've loving said about the topic has been absolutely false and ignorant. You have yet to say anything insightful or even remotely relevant to the topic, except from your rambling threats about how imperialists and interventionists and whatever other buzzword you can conjure are trying to take down the government, which is a government that deserves to be taken down because it's killing people. You have Venezuelans, some of which are on the ground, telling you they want their government gone, and all you can say back to them is that they're somehow racist, because being against Maduro means you're a racist. Get the gently caress out.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:05
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dublish posted:Pro-intervention? Did I miss something? The one position I've been posting in this thread to defend is an anti-interventionist one. If you agree with this I don't know what your problem is. I've been trying to argue that the best thing that non-Venezuelans can do for the Venezuelan people is be critical of their own country's involvement and oppose attempts to interfere. I've also been trying to point out that given pretty much the entire history of South America, of American intervention, and of oil-exporting regions; pretending that there's absolutely no way foreign interests are currently involved in the Venezuela situation is pretty naive and irresponsible. For some reason this seems to piss a ton of people off in this thread, who are super intent in putting words in my mouth and strawmanning me, I can only assume as a way of delegitimizing the above stance.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:09
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We are NOT non-Venezuelans. It's the Venezuelans, real Venezuelans, who are telling you to get the gently caress out.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:12
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fnox posted:We are NOT non-Venezuelans. And here you are doing this again. Where have I ever said otherwise?
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Jul 13, 2017 17:13
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Bob le Moche posted:And here you are doing this again. Where have I ever said otherwise? I believe they take issue with you casually dismissing all the in-thread Venezuelans who point out the deeply entrenched self-willing ignorance of your position.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:21
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Bob le Moche posted:And here you are doing this again. Where have I ever said otherwise? You JUST did. Bob le Moche posted:I've been trying to argue that the best thing that non-Venezuelans can do for the Venezuelan people is be critical of their own country's involvement and oppose attempts to interfere. Us Venezuelans in this thread want other countries to interfere. You somehow think Venezuelans are not calling for international action, or that they don't want other countries to get involved. We can't deal with this government that is willing to kill its own people to preserve itself on our own, we have no weapons and we have no desire to raise arms against Maduro, we just want him out.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:22
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dublish posted:Pro-intervention? Did I miss something? fnox posted:Us Venezuelans in this thread want other countries to interfere. Here's your answer dublish EDIT: Lawman 0 posted:I honestly don't really see a path forward to solving this crisis without UN intervention and peacekeepers flooding the country. fnox posted:Your country is not loving involved. It should though, like all other nations in the OAS, because the Venezuelan people can't fight a dictatorship that is willing to openly murder them on their own. GlyphGryph posted:Don't you believe in international solidarity? Should the laborers of the US not feel compelled to reach out in brotherhood and offer their assistance to the Venezuelan proletariat being crushed under the boot of their wealthy oligarchs? Pharohman777 posted:Even if the opposition was supported by imperialist intrests, it would still be better than maduros government.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:23
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Bob le Moche posted:Here's your answer dublish Here's your answer, Bob, I'd take bending over to Uncle Sam over having my family killed any day of the week. God I wish I could just send you one-way to Venezuela, see how long you last.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:27
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fnox posted:Here's your answer, Bob, I'd take bending over to Uncle Sam over having my family killed any day of the week. Why have you been so coy about this until now? If your goal is to convince people that intervention is necessary why not come out in the open and say that this is what you're after, in good faith? We could actually have a discussion about the things we actually disagree on instead of your continued cheap transparent attempts to discredit me. I've been very honest about where I'm coming from.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:30
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Bob le Moche posted:Why have you been so coy about this until now? If your goal is to convince people that intervention is necessary why not come out in the open and say that this is what you're after, in good faith? We could actually have a discussion about the things we actually disagree on instead of your continued cheap transparent attempts to discredit me. I've been very honest about where I'm coming from. Honest? gently caress you Bob, you cropped out any mention of the government killing people. You refuse to acknowledge the government has killed and tortured hundreds to preserve itself.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:32
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fnox posted:Honest? gently caress you Bob, you cropped out any mention of the government killing people. You refuse to acknowledge the government has killed and tortured hundreds to preserve itself. I don't think so, I've said before when asked to provide a counter-narrative about the violence that I had no problem with Chuck's account of it.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:34
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Bob le Moche posted:I don't think so, I've said before when asked to provide a counter-narrative about the violence that I had no problem with Chuck's account of it. One side is armed, there is only one side that holds all the guns and that is willing to kill people. Do you honestly think that the rest of the population is able to fight off armed thugs on their own? The only reason we've even gotten this far has been because of diplomatic intervention, otherwise they would have just killed far more people by now. Tell me, dipshit, how do we get rid of such a government without starting a civil war and without diplomatic action? fnox fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Jul 13, 2017 |
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Jul 13, 2017 17:37
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fnox posted:God I wish I could just send you one-way to Venezuela, see how long you last. Bob le Moche's excellent Venezuela adventure: 1) First hand experience at XXI century socialist paradise's wealth redistribution within minutes of arrival (Robbed at airport customs) deadpool starts here 2) First hand experience at XXI century socialist people helping hands (inside his pockets as he leaves airport) 3) First hand experience at XXI century socialist institutions efficiency (goes to report robbers and is greeted by National Bolivarian Guard members who contact his family in minutes, for ransom) 4) First hand experience at XXI century socialist anti imperialist militias professionalism (kidnapped again, passed around various small groups, 2-4 weeks for anyone to actually ask for ransom) 5) First hand experience at XXI century socialist freedom of travel (waits for 3-4 months in airport for ticket home, with no money or marketable skills) deadpool ends here.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:52
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fnox posted:One side is armed, there is only one side that holds all the guns and that is willing to kill people. Do you honestly think that the rest of the population is able to fight off armed thugs on their own? The only reason we've even gotten this far has been because of diplomatic intervention, otherwise they would have just killed far more people by now. What I can tell you is that if the US intervenes, the humanitarian narrative will merely be the justification. I can only speak with authority about that. The true reasons for intervention will have nothing to do with helping the Venezuelan people and the imperialists will work with, and prop up, anyone that is willing to work with them and deliver the desired outcome, no matter who they sacrifice and betray in Venezuela, or the human cost. This really shouldn't be that difficult to consider. Again, my point is only about opposing intervention as a non-Venezuelan. It's really not up to me to give lessons to Venezuelans about what they should do with their country, or how they should have their revolution. I can see that one side refers to these people as "thugs", and the other see them as a more grassroots democratic and legitimate force than the police or military, and as the defenders of the revolution. I know every right-wing media outlet in the anglosphere supports the first narrative and is pushing for intervention. I don't want to take sides in this thread because it seems the only Venezuelans who care about what I think are those who would be willing to work with imperialist governments and seek to convince me to support intervention. I can attempt to answer your question, though, even though the position I defend is unrelated, and even though you will probably just focus on that and ignore my primary point. Without weapons, a general strike might be an option. Maintaining an authoritarian government is extremely expensive and without foreign support it is only possible through capturing the work done by the rest of society, so a broad working-class opposition and a willingness to strike would help. This would probably lead to a lot less deaths than openly armed warfare, especially since the government's claim to power is that it represents a socialist worker state, so if its only option to defend itself was to fire on striking workers it would pretty much be finished. If you're convinced that the only option is open warfare, though, then I'm also not completely convinced that without foreign support the opposition has no chance against the government. Out of the 93 deaths counted by Chuck since the beginning of the protests, there are many that were attributed to the opposition. Multiple soldiers have even been killed, and the police doesn't appear to be fully loyal to the government. Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Jul 13, 2017 |
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Jul 13, 2017 18:17
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Bob, the fact that you quoted me above is pretty hilarious but makes you look really really stupid. That wasn't a call for intervention, that was mocking you for being an exceptionally lovely excuse for a leftist. But I've realized since then you're just another lovely right-wing isolationist xenophobe, so mocking you for holding stupid leftist views is going to be ineffective since you won't even recognize them.
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Jul 13, 2017 18:29
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Bob le Moche posted:What I can tell you is that if the US intervenes, the humanitarian narrative will merely be the justification. I can only speak with authority about that. The true reasons for intervention will have nothing to do with helping the Venezuelan people and the imperialists will work with, and prop up, anyone that is willing to work with them and deliver the desired outcome, no matter who they sacrifice and betray in Venezuela, or the human cost. This really shouldn't be that difficult to consider. I don't give a poo poo so long as they're not worse than Maduro. You just can't fathom how horrible life in Venezuela is, and that's why you care about this petty poo poo. I do, I've seen it go from bad to worse after years, and years, and years, of the international community leaving the opposition to their own devices. The only reason we've gotten this far this time is because people started to sort of give a drat about Venezuela. Bob le Moche posted:I can attempt to answer your question, though, even though the position I defend is unrelated, and even though you will probably just focus on that and ignore my primary point. Without weapons, a general strike might be an option. Maintaining an authoritarian government is extremely expensive and without foreign support it is only possible through capturing the work done by the rest of society, so a broad working-class opposition and a willingness to strike would help. This would probably lead to a lot less deaths than openly armed warfare, especially since the government's claim to power is that it represents a socialist worker state, so if its only option to defend itself was to fire on striking workers it would pretty much be finished. If you're convinced that the only option is open warfare, though, then I'm also not completely convinced that without foreign support the opposition has no chance against the government. Out of the 93 deaths counted by Chuck since the beginning of the protests, there are many that were attributed to the opposition. Multiple soldiers have even been killed, and the police doesn't appear to be fully loyal to the government. See, you again prove your ignorance on the topic. A general strike was the first thing that was attempted, it didn't work, it legitimised Chavez and has served as ammunition for Chavistas for the past decade. A general strike wouldn't work nowadays because oil production is 97% of the country's production, and that's totally owned by the government who are keeping workers under constant threats to their families and livelihoods to keep them working. Out of the entire population, the government only actually needs those 80000 civilians, they can kill off the rest. This would also cause the entire country to starve even faster as the government also controls all food distribution networks. And yes, police and GNBs have died, to the surprise of absolutely nobody. You can only arrest, torture and kill kids for so long until somebody, who has had everything taken from them, takes matters into their own hands. And yes, in their own hands, not a single opposition politician is calling the people to take arms. The overwhelming majority of victims are protesters of less than 25 years of age. fnox fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jul 13, 2017 |
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Jul 13, 2017 18:31
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If you are reading this thread and are against intervention, or even just an uninformed non-Venezuelan, I want to make the point that people who seek intervention will try to manipulate your perception of what's happening in order to silence any qualms you might have about it, but they will never openly tell you that this is what they really stand for. They want to make sure that when the US does decide to intervene, the dominant narrative in North America is that it's for humanitarian reasons and that any opposition can easily be painted as supporting an evil totalitarian despot, this is what ensures that imperialist governments can get away with enforcing their interests on the rest of the world without opposition from their own citizens. Once this happens the media then completely ignores the outcome of such regime change operations and the violence done in order to protect imperialist interests, and continue to completely ignores the crimes of the authoritarian regimes who work for the US and receive its support. The reason I keep bringing up the importance of learning about history is that this scenario keeps happening, over and over again.
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Jul 13, 2017 18:33
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Whenever the questions get too hard, just ignore every post and call everyone an imperialist! Get the gently caress out Bob.
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Jul 13, 2017 18:36
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