|
It doesn't actually matter if the show is planned out in advance if the writers are competent enough to bring the story to a satisfying conclusion. Lost and BSG were shows that sold themselves on their plots and twists and mysteries. But they both completely fell apart when the twists didn't make sense and the mysteries were either forgotten about or had really stupid resolutions. Don't retcon history, when Lost and BSG started people didn't say "lol this is gonna be such a stupid trainwreck"
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 16:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 21:58 |
|
|
Snak posted:I guess if you've never watched a show before where the villain claimed to have a master plan that clearly made no sense and was made up on an episode by episode bases. Good for you on not being 99% of the people that watched the first few seasons of Lost and BSG. I never watched Lost at all actually but come on. lovely writing practices are lovely writing practices. Breaking Bad wrote its plot from episode to episode too and it did so without being a steaming pile of garbage while baiting its audience that it was all leading somewhere but never delivering.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 16:26
|
|
|
I'm not saying that people said it was gonna be a stupid trainwreck. I'm saying if by halfway through each show, you believed that they were being architected to some master plan, you were fooled by marketing and not looking at the actual product objectively. In almost every case, when something is claiming to have some big plan behind it, it's literally marketing. Because that idea is attractive to people. Like when people would try to talk about how "George Lucas actually wrote out all 9 star wars stories originally". "Ooh, I can't wait to learn more about the Cylon plan" is a reasonable response. "I bet the writers actually have a literal plan mapped out and everything is going to be consistent with that" is not. People who think that way are suckers. I can't think of a single example of a series or franchise where a villain's overarching plan made a lick of sense when taken as a whole. So yeah, if BSG was one of the first shows you ever watched, I could see how you might take its marketing at face value.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 16:34
|
|
|
You know, in theory, I agree with everything bad that can be said about the Lost and BSG endings. Now if only you guys could express all that without sounding like the colicky love children of Jeff Albertson and Charlie Kelly.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 16:36
|
|
|
The whole Baltar as Christ/messiah figure is such a pain to swallow because they never made him any kind of likable still. I'm gonna finish it I guess cause I only have like 17 episodes left. But bleh.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 16:37
|
|
|
I'm in a weird boat, because I agree that Lost's ending was bad, but I loved BSG's ending, warts and all. Then again my favorite season of Lost was like, season 4, or whichever one the time travel season was, and that's like universally one of the least-liked ones. Edit: ^ I think that works great, because it highlights the transactional nature of religious authority. Gaius is good at being a cult leader, not because he's good or likeable, but because he knows how to offer people what they want. His MO doesn't change for the whole series. He's a weasely survivor. Just like real life cult leaders. Snak fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Jul 17, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 16:38
|
|
|
Which is the season of Lost where Eko seems to be a big deal and there are important themes about church and building a church for Charlie and then none of it loving matters. That was the worst season.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 16:48
|
|
|
Second season, I think. It's also the one where Jack asks the policewoman whose name I forget to help him train an army so they can fight the Others and then she gets shot a couple of episodes later and dies and that's it for that plot avenue.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 16:50
|
|
|
Calaveron posted:Wasn't the plan for a long time to make the baker lady be the mother? The baker was a backup in case they got cancelled before they got to what they wanted. I've never heard the second thing. Mu Zeta posted:Which is the season of Lost where Eko seems to be a big deal and there are important themes about church and building a church for Charlie and then none of it loving matters. That was the worst season. The actor asked to be written off the show.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 16:51
|
|
|
misguided rage posted:The cylons didn't have a plan either though Yeah they did, their grand plan (and sure, I'll spoiler this) was to kill every single last human. But the rest of the cylons were very bad/not as fanatical about it, compared to Cavil. People just thought it be a more sophisticated, nuanced, complicated plan and that's really down to people's expectations.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 16:54
|
|
|
Come back, X-O! Come back!!!!!
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 16:58
|
|
|
Snak posted:I'm not saying that people said it was gonna be a stupid trainwreck. I'm saying if by halfway through each show, you believed that they were being architected to some master plan, you were fooled by marketing and not looking at the actual product objectively. Dude, I already said that the season finale of season 3 of BSG was the point where it became undeniable that the Cylons had no plan and the writers were just doing random poo poo. You aren't disagreeing with me. Snak posted:I can't think of a single example of a series or franchise where a villain's overarching plan made a lick of sense when taken as a whole. Seriously? First season of Arrow, Merlyn wants to blow up the poor part of town to get revenge for his wife who was(in his mind) murdered by the very people she was trying to help. He takes logical, rational steps to achieve that goal. First season of iZombie, Blaine wants to turn a bunch of rich and important people in town into zombies so he can get rich selling them brains and be above the law. He takes logical steps to achieve that goal. There's so many examples of TV show with villains who have a goal and proceed towards that goal in a logical manner UnquietDream posted:Yeah they did, their grand plan (and sure, I'll spoiler this) was to kill every single last human. But the rest of the cylons were very bad/not as fanatical about it, compared to Cavil. People just thought it be a more sophisticated, nuanced, complicated plan and that's really down to people's expectations. Then what was the point of the Cylon/human hybrids? Why didn't they just activate Tigh and have him lead the fleet into a trap? Or activate any of the other unique Cylons in the Fleet and have them do something? Why did they occupy the human settlement instead of blowing it up?
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 17:03
|
|
|
BSG and Lost finale talk was banned for a reason.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 17:04
|
|
|
Guy Goodbody posted:Then what was the point of the Cylon/human hybrids? Why didn't they just activate Tigh and have him lead the fleet into a trap? Or activate any of the other unique Cylons in the Fleet and have them do something? Why did they occupy the human settlement instead of blowing it up? It's been a while but from memory, the plot goes roughly like this Unhappy final five arrive just in time to stop first Cylon war and convince the Cylons to negotiate a peace in exchange for them granting Cylons the ability to make fleshy human models, presumably for religious reasons (Cylons are really into their one true God thing). Cavil is a little poo poo and gets real mad that his creators don't love him and made him weak and squishy as opposed to real cool machines. Cavil wipes all of final fives minds and places them in the colonies to teach them a lesson about humanity being crappy. Cavil also modified/wiped all other human cylon minds so they're basically children but for *reasons* he keeps Cylon society as a voting collective. Everything following that is all the other Cylons either expressing individuality or wanting to pull the breaks on the mass genocide scheme as they actually develop individuality and stop being children. So technically I suppose the intro should have read "One Cylon model has a plan, the rest are just kinda finding their way in the world following some real bad first decisions."
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 17:13
|
|
|
So was Janice really popular? Why'd they keep bringing her in long after the joke went stale
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 17:41
|
|
|
Aphrodite posted:The actor asked to be written off the show. I thought the guy who played Eko got booted because of a DUI. Maybe also the same with Michelle Rodriguez? I just remember that anything that came out in the news about Lost castmembers at the time involved a DUI.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 17:47
|
|
|
It was Michelle Rodriguez and the girl who died in the same ep who had DUIs I think? Eko just didn't like Hawaii.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 17:51
|
|
|
raditts posted:I thought the guy who played Eko got booted because of a DUI. Eko's actor requested to leave the show because he wanted to return to England. Michelle Rodriguez and Cynthia Watros got popped for DUIs within a week of one another, then both of their characters were written off the show shortly thereafter - which they and the producers claim was mere coincidence, but it seemed too convenient. I remember when Daniel Dae Kim got booked a few years later that fans immediately assumed it meant Jin was not long for this world.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 17:55
|
|
|
In Avatar The Last Airbender do you think the Fire Nation had to pay restitution and that the generals were prosecuted for war crimes
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 18:10
|
|
|
Shageletic posted:BSG and Lost finale talk was banned for a reason. Those who forget history are forced to repeat it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 18:14
|
|
|
JethroMcB posted:Eko's actor requested to leave the show because he wanted to return to England. Michelle Rodriguez and Cynthia Watros got popped for DUIs within a week of one another, then both of their characters were written off the show shortly thereafter - which they and the producers claim was mere coincidence, but it seemed too convenient. I remember when Daniel Dae Kim got booked a few years later that fans immediately assumed it meant Jin was not long for this world. Didn't Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje (Eko) get into a physical fight with Matthew Fox at one point?
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 18:22
|
|
|
Rhyno posted:Didn't Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje (Eko) get into a physical fight with Matthew Fox at one point? They should have just replaced Adewale with Kevin Hart and not mentioned it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 18:23
|
|
|
Maybe it's because I watched them after they ended, and didn't suffer through years of theorising about the shows with other people, but I really liked the endings to LOST and BSG. The final season of LOST was a hot mess, but the finale I dug. The biggest issue with that show is it's too long. BSG had some issues in the last couple seasons, and some hokey scenes in the finale, but God and religion were a huge part of the show from loving day one w/r/t the cylons, so I wasn't surprised or disappointed with where the ending went.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 18:26
|
|
|
Mu Zeta posted:In Avatar The Last Airbender do you think the Fire Nation had to pay restitution and that the generals were prosecuted for war crimes Like, I know you're joking, but they're actually exploring this a bit in the sequel graphic novels Dark Horse publishes (when they're not busy doing stuff like retconning Zuko and Azula's mom as an amnesiac who's been alive this whole time). Basically the Fire Nation is also completely hosed following the war and can't really do anything to fix things but they try anyway, and also the other nations aren't very receptive to the Fire Nation/Zuko trying to help.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 18:30
|
|
|
Mu Zeta posted:BSG really sucks in retrospect. It will only be notable in the future for kicking off the writers' strike with the webisode controversy. Nah it's still good, and has one of the best pilots that has ever been produced.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 18:32
|
|
|
I'll bet the people in the BSG thread would really love all this BSG talk!!
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 18:41
|
|
|
lelandjs posted:Like, I know you're joking, but they're actually exploring this a bit in the sequel graphic novels Dark Horse publishes (when they're not busy doing stuff like retconning Zuko and Azula's mom as an amnesiac who's been alive this whole time). The show did that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 18:48
|
|
|
esperterra posted:Maybe it's because I watched them after they ended, and didn't suffer through years of theorising about the shows with other people, but I really liked the endings to LOST and BSG. I never gave a poo poo about Lost and can't speak to that but  about BSG. It's also a show that holds up much better on chunky rewatches than being doled out piecemeal and having every little thing torn to shreds by internet microanalysis week-to-week.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 18:56
|
|
|
lelandjs posted:Also has there been any example ever of a role being race/genderswapped and was actually worse because of it? Emma Stone in Aloha?
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 19:50
|
|
|
Humbug Scoolbus posted:Emma Stone in Aloha? I think they mean in an adaptation. Aloha was just weird/bad casting.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 19:58
|
|
|
Aphrodite posted:The show did that. The show left her fate ambiguous.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 20:01
|
|
|
lelandjs posted:Also has there been any example ever of a role being race/genderswapped and was actually worse because of it? Doctor Who is unique, no other show recasts the lead in such a way.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 20:28
|
|
|
Doctor Who is unique that it sucks and has been on TV longer than TV itself
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 20:40
|
|
|
Escobarbarian posted:Come back, X-O! Come back!!!!! You're on your own now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 20:46
|
|
|
X-O posted:You're on your own now. Forgive us, we did not know what we would wrought 
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 21:36
|
|
|
lelandjs posted:The show left her fate ambiguous. Ambiguous means alive.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 21:41
|
|
|
I should make a new Korra thread
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 21:44
|
|
|
I wonder if they've ever revealed what the original plan for Eko was. The most they've revealed is that he was supposed to be integral to the island (I would wager it forces things to be split three ways between him, Locke and Jack) and whatever they had planned, and had set up, ended when he decided he didn't like Hawaii anymore and wanted to go home instead. Hell, watching it again, that LOST pilot is so good at drawing you in even when you know where it's all going.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 21:46
|
|
|
One thing I remember about Lost was one character in the last season whose actor insisted she was "on every page" of the finale then got unceremoniously dropped (apparently because she was difficult to work with but who knows why it happened).
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 22:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 21:58 |
|
|
Was Jennifer Aniston pregnant irl at the same time as Rachel was? Because dang that lady kept it tight immediately after
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 22:49
|
|