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spacetoaster posted:The villain in Spiderman was way better. I mean, you could if you want, relative to the hero, but it should be interesting and the characters involved should be uniquely characterized. It's just that the costs are so high most companies stick to the tried and true formula. WW was WB realizing Marvel's formula was safer than what Snyder was going for.
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Jul 19, 2017 20:23
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Drifter posted:I mean, you could if you want, relative to the hero, but it should be interesting and the characters involved should be uniquely characterized. It's just that the costs are so high most companies stick to the tried and true formula. WW was WB realizing Marvel's formula was safer than what Snyder was going for. It gets kinda tiring when you've got these big groups of heros where every one of them is saving the world every other week.
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Jul 19, 2017 21:27
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DeimosRising posted:I'm not gonna sit here and defend Joseph Stalin or the end of the NEP those are bad things. But even the Kiev Court of Appeals, a somewhat biased source, pegged it at somewhat less than 4 million dead in the 30s famine and 6 million fewer births, a commonly used measure to inflate "casualties" under communist regimes when using demographic reconstruction to estimate death totals. That's still an awful number, but the causes of that famine, and of virtually all famines, are common to all centralized food distribution systems - for example, around half a million people died in the 1892 Volga famine, and not because inadequate calorie yields had been produced. Overall famine deaths relative to population were actually somewhat higher in the Russian Empire in the century prior to the Revolution than in the period of Soviet rule, discounting deaths under Nazi occupation. In the same period, a series of extremely similar famines were sweeping British India, resulting in at least 15 million deaths in areas directly ruled by the Empire and an unknown but probably roughly equal number in allied Princedoms, between 1850 and 1900. The Stalinist collectivization employed almost identical centralized food distribution tactics to the Russian and British Empires - with the same result, mass death of food producers and especially rural trade workers reliant on surpluses sold at local markets. All the while, centrally collected surpluses were being exported or stored for military use in quantities sufficient to prevent any deaths at all. Sir, this is a McDonald's drive thru.
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Jul 19, 2017 22:16
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Sir Kodiak posted:Sure, but there's mortals with the name Napi. There's lots of people named Jesus but if someone speaking Aramaic said "hi, I'm Jesus, but keep it on the down-low" in a story about the redemption of mankind it might be significant.
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Jul 20, 2017 02:52
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McSpanky posted:There's lots of people named Jesus but if someone speaking Aramaic said "hi, I'm Jesus, but keep it on the down-low" in a story about the redemption of mankind it might be significant. I'm not saying it's not significant, but there's a difference between interpreting that as a reference and as a cameo by the son of God.
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Jul 20, 2017 04:49
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Sir Kodiak posted:I'm not saying it's not significant, but there's a difference between interpreting that as a reference and as a cameo by the son of God. The difference is context clues, and making a reading which follows the evidence instead of vice versa.
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Jul 20, 2017 05:15
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McSpanky posted:The difference is context clues, and making a reading which follows the evidence instead of vice versa. I'd agree. The only evidence I've seen for Napi being the Napi is a note in a script, but I'm legitimately interested in arguments.
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Jul 20, 2017 05:17
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Here's the thing: if Chief's name was actually something else, yet he behaved a lot like a trickster folk hero out of mythology, I would think "Huh, that's pretty cool, I wonder if Chief is actually some reference to a trickster out of mythology, even if he wasn't called that directly?" The fact that Chief acts nothing like any sort of trickster or folk hero or demigod, even though he is specifically and verbally named as Napi in the movie itself, is what makes me go "Meh. Whatever." about this bit of beyond-the-scenes minutiae. In the movie itself, Steve and Sameer both act more like Napi than Chief does.
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Jul 20, 2017 05:41
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This seems like a useful bit of forward planning for if they ever want to do anything with the character more than something relevant to this movie specifically. Plant the idea now so it looks clever when you come back to it later. Sort of like the opposite of "actually that kid in iron man 2 is a young peter parker" after Marvel got Spider-man back, or whatever that backwards engineering was.
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Jul 20, 2017 05:58
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Sir Kodiak posted:I'd agree. The only evidence I've seen for Napi being the Napi is a note in a script, but I'm legitimately interested in arguments. Judging from the Avengers discussion you treat films like found footage from which one derives objective information about the reality depicted so I don't know why I was expecting anything else.
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Jul 20, 2017 06:46
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Sir Kodiak posted:I'd agree. The only evidence I've seen for Napi being the Napi is a note in a script, but I'm legitimately interested in arguments. After Trevor tells the crew about her origins, he's the one who goes "I believe her." Demigods recongizing each other?
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Jul 20, 2017 06:54
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A lot of people seem uncomfortable with outside material or subtle implications that significantly change the themes of a film when put in context. I think it's something that should be embraced, if only because it gives you more to talk about. Besides, incorporating mythology from marginalised cultures, even in bit roles, with a degree of respect and research equal to their more well-known Western counterparts, is probably a very good thing.
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Jul 20, 2017 07:10
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I honestly don't see how simply namedropping a little-known culture hero in a way that makes absolutely no impact on the characters or the story in any way, through an easily-missed line of dialogue that 99.99% of the audience is literally unable to understand and thereby unable to appreciate the subtleties of (unless they go searching on Google a week or so after the movie is out and a handful of articles are written about the matter)...really does all that much to honor the Blackfoot or their heritage. Especially if we're talking about honor "equal to" how Western myths are usually treated, it's like...what? This film is the very definition of shining a big fat honking spotlight on Greek mythology, with a light dressing of Christian mythology, while downplaying any other cultural influences. Like, I appreciate the actor and the director throwing a tidbit towards Native American mythology, but let's not over-eulogize what they've done. Lots of other films have treated Native American mythology with a lot more consideration and respect. (And, of course, lots of other films have done a lot worse as well) And if we wanna look at how this sort of outside material or subtle implication changes the film or makes it more interesting to talk about...well, okay, how does it change the film? How does it make the film more interesting? My whole issue with it right from the outset was that whether Chief is literally Napi or not doesn't actually affect the film or the character or the story in any palpable way at all. I guess it's a subtle way to say that more legends are real than just the Greek myths? But we basically already knew that, since this is taking place in the same universe as Suicide Squad. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Jul 20, 2017 |
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Jul 20, 2017 09:19
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I totally agree, it's an utterly pointless addition! I also found it weird (silly?) that these bad rear end immortal Amazonians got mowed down by some emaciated Nazis off some wooden boats. Like one bullet to the gut and your best general is dead immediately.
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Jul 20, 2017 09:49
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Alan_Shore posted:I totally agree, it's an utterly pointless addition! Amazons aren't all gods, it was made fairly clear they're 'merely' unaging mild superhumans, like Tolkein's elves. And they did pretty well against WW1-era Germans considering they'd never seen guns before and probably hadn't fought a real battle in millennia; with the aid of only one man who knew how to use guns they wiped out the Germans pretty quickly. Also; no relevance of a god of a displaced, reduced people working as a petty profiteer on the Great War running into a naive junior goddess who thinks she can make everything better by herself, and the last of the great Olympian gods coming to a clash over who gets to embody conflict in the 20th century? He's basically in the position Diana is by BvS.
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Jul 20, 2017 11:23
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Charlz Guybon posted:After Trevor tells the crew about her origins, he's the one who goes "I believe her." Demigods recongizing each other? Additionally, he's the only person she shakes hands with. Even though she has the opportunity before this (when Etta Candy introduces herself) she doesn't shake hands. Mr. Apollo fucked around with this message at 11:55 on Jul 20, 2017 |
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Jul 20, 2017 11:52
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I'm of two minds about this: On the one hand, establishing that Chief's secret identity is Napi entirely through exposition while only presenting him as slightly trickster-ish when he steals the car from the off-screen field while nobody's looking just seems kind of emblematic of the film's shortcomings. On the other hand, maybe after folks watch the documentary Reel Injun they'll have more appreciation for why having exposition/characterization that only a select colonized people will understand is actually pretty neat and subversive in a mainstream Hollywood production. Ditto taking an archetype of the American West and transferring him to the Eastern front. You know what I didn't like? When Diana leaves her sword on top of the roof when she's first encountering Ares, we cut away to the dudes, and then when we cut back it's the same exact shot but with a clumsy effect of Diana jumping down just to make it clear she went back up to the roof and got the sword. Like, that wasn't even funny - it was just clumsy.
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Jul 20, 2017 13:54
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K. Waste posted:You know what I didn't like? When Diana leaves her sword on top of the roof when she's first encountering Ares, we cut away to the dudes, and then when we cut back it's the same exact shot but with a clumsy effect of Diana jumping down just to make it clear she went back up to the roof and got the sword. Like, that wasn't even funny - it was just clumsy.
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Jul 20, 2017 14:11
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Mostly I took it to be an early example of the Sword not actually being the Godkiller, as Ares is perfectly content for her to go get it before they have their conversation. So the significance is that Ares lets her get it, which suggests he doesn't care about the sword at all.
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Jul 20, 2017 14:19
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I do like the implication that Ares has total dominion over weapons and instruments of war; the sword disintegrates on contact with him, and he telekinetically controls the parts of a tank.
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Jul 20, 2017 14:27
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K. Waste posted:
Oh poo poo that was so bad! Like, we're supposed to be like "oh no she doesn't have her sword, gently caress! Oh wait she got it it's cool." Only it's not played for laughs? It's just... What? Total amateur hour. Really confusing. Honestly the movie really dips in quality the second she kills the general. Even the story of stopping the plane was solved really simply, with no tension. I thought it was going to be this big hard fought battle to get to the plane but those mother fuckers are there in a blink of an eye. This is a military base swarming with Nazis and they just walk up and steal a super secret plane with no effort. A Marvel movie would have had these two high stakes battles happening simultaneously.
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Jul 20, 2017 14:46
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Alan_Shore posted:Oh poo poo that was so bad! Like, we're supposed to be like "oh no she doesn't have her sword, gently caress! Oh wait she got it it's cool." Only it's not played for laughs? It's just... What? Total amateur hour. Really confusing. Didn't nearly the exact same thing happen in BvS with the kryptonite spear? Lois abandons it, then has to go get it again, for no real reason at all.
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Jul 20, 2017 15:18
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WampaLord posted:Didn't nearly the exact same thing happen in BvS with the kryptonite spear? Lois abandons it, then has to go get it again, for no real reason at all. That at least leads to some kind of mini plot arc. Lois almost drowns, then Superman does as well. It's a desperate scramble, and at the very least gives us a bit of Lois and Superman cooperating on something and sort of tripping over themselves to save each other.
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Jul 20, 2017 15:25
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WampaLord posted:Didn't nearly the exact same thing happen in BvS with the kryptonite spear? Lois abandons it, then has to go get it again, for no real reason at all. She throws the spear away because the situation was diffused and she didn't want anyone getting the one thing that could easily kill Superman. Then a few moments later, a giant Kryptonian monster shows up and she realizes they need the spear to kill it.
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Jul 20, 2017 15:26
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Detective No. 27 posted:She throws the spear away because the situation was diffused and she didn't want anyone getting the one thing that could easily kill Superman. Then a few moments later, a giant Kryptonian monster shows up and she realizes they need the spear to kill it. It's really funny when you lay it out like this, lmao.
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Jul 20, 2017 15:27
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WampaLord posted:Didn't nearly the exact same thing happen in BvS with the kryptonite spear? Lois abandons it, then has to go get it again, for no real reason at all. I'm not saying there was no reason for Diana to leave behind the sword. I don't care about the sword. I'm talking about how her getting the sword back is conveyed visually. And, yes, Beavis is way funnier than Wonder Woman.
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Jul 20, 2017 15:47
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McSpanky posted:Judging from the Avengers discussion you treat films like found footage from which one derives objective information about the reality depicted so I don't know why I was expecting anything else.  K. Waste posted:I'm of two minds about this: Yeah, I agree with this. It's an interesting move to introduce him that way, but it also seems like a bit of a waste in how they actually use the character given they had the idea. It's a movie that could stand to be a little odder, and expanding on this would have been a nice way to do it.
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Jul 20, 2017 19:15
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Sir Kodiak posted:Yeah, I agree with this. It's an interesting move to introduce him that way, but it also seems like a bit of a waste in how they actually use the character given they had the idea. It's a movie that could stand to be a little odder, and expanding on this would have been a nice way to do it. Gonna come right out with it: Chief deserves a movie way more than Wonder Woman. Just him and Ewen Bremner paling around on a Grand Illusion sort of trip.
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Jul 20, 2017 22:04
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K. Waste posted:You know what I didn't like? When Diana leaves her sword on top of the roof when she's first encountering Ares, we cut away to the dudes, and then when we cut back it's the same exact shot but with a clumsy effect of Diana jumping down just to make it clear she went back up to the roof and got the sword. Like, that wasn't even funny - it was just clumsy. While it probably was a quick continuity fix, you gotta keep in mind the narrative logic where Diana's power is myth itself - her belief in her own mythology. What you have in the film is Diana's belief that she has reached the end of her journey and brought about utopia, so it's very important that you have this subsequent fumbling awkwardness where she tries to regain her purpose (only to have it crumble as it's revealed that the sword was only ever just a sword, and so-on).
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Jul 20, 2017 22:23
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Ares- Sometimes a sword is just a sword.
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Jul 20, 2017 22:28
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K. Waste posted:Gonna come right out with it: Chief deserves a movie way more than Wonder Woman. Just him and Ewen Bremner paling around on a Grand Illusion sort of trip. Yeah, definitely. Though given that this is a modern major studio production, I'd have been pretty happy with even a beefier supporting role like Croc in Suicide Squad.
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Jul 21, 2017 00:03
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:While it probably was a quick continuity fix, you gotta keep in mind the narrative logic where Diana's power is myth itself - her belief in her own mythology. Her being blindsided and confused by the Ares reveal when she was so sure it was Ludendorff mirrors her realization that mankind is not the inherently good and peaceful race she was positive it was.
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Jul 21, 2017 01:08
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There's a blog post from one of my tumblr friends that I think is relevant here: http://prequelsredeemed.blogspot.com.au/2017/06/what-would-wonder-woman-do.html
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Jul 21, 2017 01:22
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So Wonder Woman is Fight Club? I understand what they're saying but it's a movie about a demi goddess who can deflect bullets with her bracelets, lift tanks over her head, and levitate herself into the air. Why wouldn't Ares be a real person she fights?
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Jul 21, 2017 02:03
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Mr. Apollo posted:That makes sense. Diana is supposed the ultimate Amazon warrior and is always prepared for battle. Yet here you have her not only without her most basic and important tool, the sword, but also she's forgotten she doesn't have it; as demonstrated when she goes to reach for it. Also, remember that she made Candy swear to guard the sword with her life. The unspoken joke, in the film, is that the 'divine weapons' locked away in the tower don't really do anything. The act of locking them in the tower is what gives them their mystical allure.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:23
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Also, remember that she made Candy swear to guard the sword with her life. I guess it's a WW1 analogy too. You had these emerald with all these new and terrible weapons and nothing to do with them. They were all eager to try them out, otherwise what's the point in having them, and the war gave them the opportunity.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:50
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Sometimes, I just want to go see a movie that makes me feel happy. Wonder Woman was that movie for me. I felt optimistic when I walked out the theater, I don't even know why.
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Jul 21, 2017 03:07
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ungulateman posted:There's a blog post from one of my tumblr friends that I think is relevant here: Nothing posted on Tumblr is ever relevant anywhere.
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Jul 21, 2017 12:27
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Nothing posted on Tumblr is ever relevant anywhere. I think you'll find that the porn is extremely relevant... to deez balls.
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Jul 21, 2017 12:59
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I like that the Amazons had a whole book made out of animated gifsets
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Jul 22, 2017 04:21
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