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The Sex Cannon posted:you dummy I blame WOM as he was/is noncommittal to going; I should have just done it anyway. There was barely still room at the Marriott on the other side of the highway so I snagged one of those. Hopefully no one throws cans at me as I walk down the road with my nerd poo poo. Agentdark posted:How many people would care if I put 10 of my guard basic conscripts on square bases as I ran out of circle bases from building my inquisition agents on the circle bases? 20mm squares are almost the same size as 25mm rounds. Regardless all conscripts should be on square bases, to better match in formation as their bodies choke the rivers of their enemies.
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Jul 20, 2017 21:54
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Guilliman has been my favorite part of the new fluff, especially after he talks with his dad and he realizes he basically sees him (and all his tube bros) as a wrench, or screwdriver. Just completely cold.
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Jul 20, 2017 22:27
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Zuul the Cat posted:Guilliman has been my favorite part of the new fluff, especially after he talks with his dad and he realizes he basically sees him (and all his tube bros) as a wrench, or screwdriver. Just completely cold. His dad? The Emperor?
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Jul 20, 2017 22:31
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:He's like that in Unremembered Empire as well. Due just wants to do his best and make Ultramar a cool place to live and all his idiot brother and his distant and uncaring dad keep loving everything up. I just finished unremembered empire as a painting audiobook and I was NOT expecting my reaction to a primarch to be "d'awww thats so sweet" when it came to Guilliman worrying over his mum.
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Jul 20, 2017 22:37
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Zuul the Cat posted:Guilliman has been my favorite part of the new fluff, especially after he talks with his dad and he realizes he basically sees him (and all his tube bros) as a wrench, or screwdriver. Just completely cold. So they're really sticking to this characterization for the Emprah? This sucks. Takes all the punch out of the Heresy.
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Jul 20, 2017 22:37
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Artum posted:I just finished unremembered empire as a painting audiobook and I was NOT expecting my reaction to a primarch to be "d'awww thats so sweet" when it came to Guilliman worrying over his mum. Going to have to look that one up, it sounds interesting. Also, I really like the fluff of the Emperor seeing the Primarchs as tools to achieve his own ends: he destroyed the Thunder Warriors after they served their purpose, he lied to everyone, even the Primarchs, with the Imperial Truth, for his own ends, and it really puts into question exactly what his "grand plan" for humanity really was, and makes the worshipping him as a deity even more ironic. The Emperor's Mercy in modern 40k is about the same as "Compliance" that he had the Legions perform.
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Jul 20, 2017 22:55
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Horus's betrayal honestly only works if the Emperor is emotionally attached to his sons. I prefer it that they started out as tools, but slowly he gained respect for them and saw them as people. It makes the whole horus heresy more tragic when he finally opens up and just gets poo poo on by half his sons.
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Jul 20, 2017 23:08
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Xarlaxas posted:Going to have to look that one up, it sounds interesting. But then the Horus Heresy becomes a lot less tragic. It's not about a family tearing itself apart anymore. If the Emprah doesn't care about Horus anymore then why doesn't he kill him immediately when they fight at the end? If he's such a huge dick then it also makes less sense that half the primarchs stay so fiercely loyal to him. I guess they'll come up with some retcon when they finish the book series in 20 years but this new dynamic between the Emprah and the primarchs just feel worse than what we had before.
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Jul 20, 2017 23:09
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Senjuro posted:So they're really sticking to this characterization for the Emprah? This sucks. Takes all the punch out of the Heresy. I disagree. I think if anything, it really makes the entire universe more grimdark and makes the Heresy a little more polarized, because now instead of the traitor legions just being traitorous scum, you can sympathize with them. All these souls in the Imperium striving for a God-Emperor, hailing him as a hero and a champion of humanity and really he doesn't give a poo poo about individual people or the quality of their lives. His treatment of the Primarchs, basic humans and anyone else he comes across is no different than what he did to the Thunder Warriors. Senjuro posted:But then the Horus Heresy becomes a lot less tragic. It's not about a family tearing itself apart anymore. If the Emprah doesn't care about Horus anymore then why doesn't he kill him immediately when they fight at the end? If he's such a huge dick then it also makes less sense that half the primarchs stay so fiercely loyal to him. I guess they'll come up with some retcon when they finish the book series in 20 years but this new dynamic between the Emprah and the primarchs just feel worse than what we had before. You're reading it like a father loving his son. The Emperor clearly loves his plans and machinations more than anything. This is clearly seen in his violent reaction to Magnus loving up his plans on Terra. If you have a tool that's broken, you can still try to fix it. Especially if it's not easy to make another one. For the Primarch's and the rest of the Imperium, it very much was a family tearing itself apart. For the Emperor, it was just a kid overseeing an ant farm. He's completely alien to everyone else. Zuul the Cat fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Jul 20, 2017 |
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Jul 20, 2017 23:10
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Xarlaxas posted:Going to have to look that one up, it sounds interesting. I know people get all bent out of shape out of this topic but ADB had an interview on the Imperial Truth podcast and his response to this is basically that everyone see's and interprets the Emperor in their own way. For instance the scene with Arkan Land the Emperor is wearing a lab coat, operating on Angron in essentially a Frankenstein laboratory because of course that's how Arkan would see the Emperor , as a man of rationality and logic. Also literally the only word the Emperor actually says (and not just telepathically beam into someones mind) throughout the book is "Magnus" to said Primarch.
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Jul 20, 2017 23:10
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The Sisko posted:I know people get all bent out of shape out of this topic but ADB had an interview on the Imperial Truth podcast and his response to this is basically that everyone see's and interprets the Emperor in their own way. For instance the scene with Arkan Land the Emperor is wearing a lab coat, operating on Angron in essentially a Frankenstein laboratory because of course that's how Arkan would see the Emperor , as a man of rationality and logic. Also literally the only word the Emperor actually says (and not just telepathically beam into someones mind) throughout the book is "Magnus" to said Primarch. I still really like the old sisters of silence lore where everyone else sees the emperor as this golden god sitting on a throne but they're unaffected by the psychic glamour so they just see a man writhing in silent agony plugged into a machine.
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Jul 20, 2017 23:17
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JoshTheStampede posted:Mary Sue has officially reached "completely meaningless" territory anyway. it very clearly now means "any character I personally do not like"
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Jul 20, 2017 23:17
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Zuul the Cat posted:I disagree. I think if anything, it really makes the entire universe more grimdark and makes the Heresy a little more polarized, because now instead of the traitor legions just being traitorous scum, you can sympathize with them. I dont disagree, The Emperor is more than kind of a dick. Hes every fedora wearing reddit user given superpowers. He thinks he knows better because he has reason and logic and not feelings. He really doesnt give a crap about anyone on a personal level, hes just a glory hound. But i think that's why him caring about his "sons" works. Its a man who spent millenia being a sociopath and now for once he cares about someone other than him. He opens up, gets punched in the gut and it creates his downfall. Like, its way more emotionally poignant and grimdark than "my tools broke beep boop."
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Jul 20, 2017 23:21
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Senjuro posted:But then the Horus Heresy becomes a lot less tragic. It's not about a family tearing itself apart anymore. If the Emprah doesn't care about Horus anymore then why doesn't he kill him immediately when they fight at the end? If he's such a huge dick then it also makes less sense that half the primarchs stay so fiercely loyal to him. I guess they'll come up with some retcon when they finish the book series in 20 years but this new dynamic between the Emprah and the primarchs just feel worse than what we had before. The writers have implied that how the Heresy and the battle between Horus and the Emperor may have gone down much differently then what the Imperium at large was told.
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Jul 20, 2017 23:24
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MonsterEnvy posted:The writters have implied that how the Heresy and the battle between Horus and the Emperor may have gone down much differently then what the Imperium at large has been told. Seems kinda likely that Pious is gonna shank horus rather than the traditional emperor striking him down.
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Jul 20, 2017 23:25
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Zuul the Cat posted:I disagree. I think if anything, it really makes the entire universe more grimdark and makes the Heresy a little more polarized, because now instead of the traitor legions just being traitorous scum, you can sympathize with them. That's one way to look at it I suppose. But the Emperor being a well intentioned person, though not above some ruthless acts, being forced to watch his hopes and dreams for humanity be twisted and destroyed before his eyes over the millennia while he's powerless to stop it seems much more hosed up and fitting for the universe to me. The idea that humanity truly had a shot at a bright future and now all that's left of it is a corpse that they don't allow to die.
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Jul 20, 2017 23:42
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Guilliman's superpower is not being plot stupid and everyone calls him a Mary Sue for it  RagnarokAngel posted:Horus's betrayal honestly only works if the Emperor is emotionally attached to his sons. I prefer it that they started out as tools, but slowly he gained respect for them and saw them as people. It's almost as if Master of Mankind is kind of not a good book.
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Jul 20, 2017 23:53
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One of the things I really like about the ForgeWorld Horus Heresy books is that for most of the Heresy it was purely a political rebellion. The fact that the main motivation for most of the Primarchs is being mad at the Emperor rather than everyone just doing it for the Chaos Gods is way more interesting than Chaos Marines are in 40k.
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Jul 20, 2017 23:54
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How isn't Guilliman the biggest marry sue in 41k?
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Jul 20, 2017 23:57
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BULBASAUR posted:How isn't Guilliman the biggest marry sue in 41k? Probably because he has flaws.
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Jul 21, 2017 00:00
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BULBASAUR posted:How isn't Guilliman the biggest marry sue in 41k? Because Eldrad exists?
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Jul 21, 2017 00:01
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The Emperor was an emotionally distant, cold, and abusive father. His sons were trying to earn his love and, eventually, a bunch of them realized this wasn't possible and tried to get their fellows to break free. When they couldn't do it on their own, they decided to pray to the gods of farts, birds, sex, and murder to try to even the playing field. I haven't read the ending yet, but I assume it all works out really well.
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Jul 21, 2017 00:03
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For real though, the Heresy works really well* as a metaphor for abusive/traumatic families and the sort of Hunger Games style behavior they can induce in the children. * 'really well' = in the context of this, the silly space game for adult children Gato The Elder fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 00:05
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Senjuro posted:That's one way to look at it I suppose. But the Emperor being a well intentioned person, though not above some ruthless acts, being forced to watch his hopes and dreams for humanity be twisted and destroyed before his eyes over the millennia while he's powerless to stop it seems much more hosed up and fitting for the universe to me. The idea that humanity truly had a shot at a bright future and now all that's left of it is a corpse that they don't allow to die. I think it's absolutely compatible that he has a great plan for humanity, and that everything he's doing is for the betterment of mankind (in his eyes) while also being an absolute sociopath who treats his "children" and the resources of humanity as tools as part of said plan. Being a sociopath doesn't mean having no feelings, it's about having no empathy: he probably is incredibly upset at what has happened over the 10-11 thousand years he's been strapped to the Golden Throne because his *plan* is being ripped apart: he has/had some overarching goal for mankind, and they messed it up and shanked him in the process. The Heresy is still incredibly poignant for the Primarchs: they see themselves as a family, and the Emperor as their father, while he sees them as pawns. It's the unrequited familial love (and Chaos trickery) that ends up tearing everything apart. Basically, the Heresy is a soap opera with superhuman mutants. 
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Jul 21, 2017 00:08
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I don't like World Eaters that much because they don't fit with me tactically, but Angron is a compelling character and is written well and had an epic take-down of Robot Girlymanquote:"What would you know of struggle, Perfect Son? When have you fought against the mutilation of your mind? When have you had to do anything more than tally compliances and polish your armour?" [...] "The people of your world named you Great One. The people of mine called me Slave. Which one of us landed on a paradise of civilization to be raised by a foster father, Roboute? Which one of us was given armies to lead after training in the halls of the Macraggian high-riders? Which one of us inherited a strong, cultured kingdom? And which one of us had to rise up against a kingdom with nothing but a horde of starving slaves? Which one of us was a child enslaved on a world of monsters, with his brain cut up by carving knives? Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom which enslaves you, no matter that their armies outnumber yours by ten-thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. Honour is resisting a tyrant when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honour."
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Jul 21, 2017 00:08
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I feel like a lot of people kind of missed the point in Master of Mankind.
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Jul 21, 2017 00:10
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raverrn posted:Because Eldrad exists? See, that's a great answer
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Jul 21, 2017 00:11
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goose willis posted:I don't like World Eaters that much because they don't fit with me tactically, but Angron is a compelling character and is written well and had an epic take-down of Robot Girlyman Guilliman posted:"You’re still a slave, Angron. Enslaved by your past, blind to the future. Too hateful to learn. Too spiteful to prosper."
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Jul 21, 2017 00:12
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Can anyone help me sort out a rules question? In this entry for SW Grey Hunters, what does the language indicate? A) If a unit consists of at least 1 pack leader and 4 hunters but can also include a Wolf Guard pack leader, can one of those 4 Hunters be promoted to Wolf Guard or does that Wolf Guard have to be *added* to the 5-man unit? If it's the latter... B) Does that mean you could field a 6-man unit of the normal Grey Hunters plus the Wolf Guard? AND if that's true... C) Could I have a 10-man unit of Grey Hunters with two Wolf Guards attached (for a total of 12) or is it limited to one per unit (for a total of 11)? Hope this made sense.
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Jul 21, 2017 00:12
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That's what makes him so compelling, because Robot Girlyman is a constant winner and winners are boring
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Jul 21, 2017 00:13
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I think what rubs people the wrong way about Gulliman is the fact that he is the deus ex machina. - <Imperium Army> is fighting against <enemy> - <Imperium Army> is fighting valiantly, but losing despite using everything at their disposal - Gulliman shows up and saves <Imperium Army> from certain defeat. They could use it as a time to show off his tactical prowess; rerouting forces to assist, using astropaths to order a tactical retreat, etc.. Instead it's literally Jesus shows up just in time to singlehandedly save poo poo.
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Jul 21, 2017 00:13
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Roboute is Superman without the kryptonite problem
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Jul 21, 2017 00:15
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Safety Factor posted:I feel like a lot of people kind of missed the point in Master of Mankind. It's 40k. Subtlety is lost on resin-addled paintmonkeys.
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Jul 21, 2017 00:20
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Xarlaxas posted:I think it's absolutely compatible that he has a great plan for humanity, and that everything he's doing is for the betterment of mankind (in his eyes) while also being an absolute sociopath who treats his "children" and the resources of humanity as tools as part of said plan. I can't imagine the imperium would have been a lot more pleasant to live in with a sociopathic Emperor that only sees you as a resource or a tool. That's pretty much the state of the Imperium we know today. There needs to be a sense that things could have been better, drastically better for it to feel like a real loss. It also makes the loyalist primarchs seem like complete chumps.
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Jul 21, 2017 00:20
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Deified Data posted:Can anyone help me sort out a rules question? Space Wolves didn't use to have normal pack leaders for Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, etc. You tossed in a Wolf Guard to lead them instead, essentially acting like a normal sergeant. Not sure why they muddied the waters this time around, but it's basically just a free attack so whatever.
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Jul 21, 2017 00:20
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So is Roboute the only living loyalist primarch left or what
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Jul 21, 2017 00:22
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To clarify, a unit of 10 Grey Hunters can only have 1 GH pack leader between them, correct? I have a lot of work to do to keep this unit WYSIWYG. Thinking of the two halves as two separate units when i didn't intend to field them that way got me in trouble while building them.
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Jul 21, 2017 00:22
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goose willis posted:So is Roboute the only living loyalist primarch left or what Rest are either dead or MIA. edit: VVVV or whatever is up with him. In stasis was it? Senjuro fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 00:24
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Senjuro posted:Rest are either dead or MIA. The Lion.
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Jul 21, 2017 00:25
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Seems a little weird to have a ten foot tall demi-god with fabulous secret powers somehow just go "missing"
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Jul 21, 2017 00:27
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