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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
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JeffersonClay posted:This seems pretty dumb unless you think people have complete control over their educational outcomes. Well, who else are they going to blame? The corporations? The system? Themselves? Don't be silly! This is capitalism, after all, and the Dems are still all-in on capital - if someone is poor, it's because they weren't valuable to capital or to the free market. To them, the government's role is not to make sure that workers are able to provide for themselves, it's to make sure that everyone is useful to capital.
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Jul 21, 2017 01:07
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Fulchrum posted:Well you still haven't stopped spouting Nazi crafted useful idiot propaganda, so it seems about right you'd jump to also adopt Nazi talking points on how Jews REALLY act. lol you are mentally ill
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Jul 21, 2017 01:09
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Fulchrum posted:Well then maybe you should apply it to Peter Thiel and not to one of the only prominent rich Jewish young men in America at a time when Naziism is on the rise. You could say that all Libertarians want to steal blood, but for some weird reason, this "joke" revolves around stealing blood being a trait you force to be associated in such a way you could apply it to the guy named "Zuckerberg". I mean, 2010 was also at the height of the ACA's unpopularity and during the whole Tea Party wave, and midterms always get depressed turnout in the first place compared to a general election, especially compared to Obama's election in 08. But really, as a practical matter, if one party or faction is promising magical panacea and the other is arguing for the status quo, there's gonna come a point where people are going to choose the magic. Promising single payer healthcare (for example), and earnestly trying hard to pass it, means that even if it fails it's a piece of legislation that's been exposed to and discussed and considered by the public. Better than just saying "no it's impossible so we won't even try." Also dude I am an official Jewish Man and that guy was not making a fuckin joke about blood libel.
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Jul 21, 2017 01:16
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Y'know, if Zuck wasn't a complete moron who's only applicable skill is backstabbing people, he'd probably have decent success as VP funding a leftist candidate; dudes inexperienced is tempered by being cast as the 'in-training' figure, he gets huge points helping progressive movements, and he even gets a stab at presidency later.Casey Finnigan posted:I mean, 2010 was also at the height of the ACA's unpopularity and during the whole Tea Party wave, and midterms always get depressed turnout in the first place compared to a general election, especially compared to Obama's election in 08. This isn't even a guess, we have real concrete proof of this being the case; Obama [gave the impression that he] tried to pass single payer, and that he came short isn't held against him in the public's eye because at least he tried. He left office with some of the highest approval ratings a president has had. There's always this weird insinuation that the public are dumb as bricks and expect [promised thing] instantly, and that failure will be punished with extreme vote loss. That's just not the case, otherwise republicans would have died long ago. Even before Obama we had the Congress approval ratings vs. individual senators' approval ratings. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 01:18
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Main Paineframe posted:Well, who else are they going to blame? The corporations? The system? Themselves? Don't be silly! This is capitalism, after all, and the Dems are still all-in on capital - if someone is poor, it's because they weren't valuable to capital or to the free market. To them, the government's role is not to make sure that workers are able to provide for themselves, it's to make sure that everyone is useful to capital. So anyone advocating the government provide its citizens with better skills through state funded education is in fact a capitalist running dog. Good to know.
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Jul 21, 2017 01:20
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Neurolimal posted:Y'know, if Zuck wasn't a complete moron who's only applicable skill is backstabbing people, he'd probably have decent success as VP funding a leftist candidate; dudes inexperienced is tempered by being cast as the 'in-training' figure, he gets huge points helping progressive movements, and he even gets a stab at presidency later. Yea, if he was like "I'll bankroll Bernie or his appointed choice in exchange for being the VP candidate" that'd be...well, it'd be something. I don't think the Zuck cares enough about doing good things to do that, though.
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Jul 21, 2017 01:22
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Fulchrum posted:Well you still haven't stopped spouting Nazi crafted useful idiot propaganda, so it seems about right you'd jump to also adopt Nazi talking points on how Jews REALLY act. Wow, that is horribly racist to suggest that everyone in Silicon Valley is Jewish.
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Jul 21, 2017 01:24
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Guys, the Democrats are never moving left. To do so requires acknowledging that the American economy is based on bottom-feeding finance, grift, graft, and pain. We mostly don't create or build anything, or add value to the world. Most of our economy is just selling things that are purposefully deprived from citizens so that we can grow GDP. Healthcare and education are things that should just be given to you, no strings attached, but instead they are packaged as products that can be sold to you and a huge public relations industry exists to market them to you. It's all bullshit, all the way down. We're all frogs boiling in a pot and all the Democrats want to do is turn down the temp a bit. Huzanko fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 01:40
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Huzanko posted:Guys, we are completely incapable of ever acknowledging the Democrats are moving left. Just so that we're all clear on the actual problem here.
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Jul 21, 2017 01:41
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Fulchrum posted:Just so that we're all clear on the actual problem here. Also true.
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Jul 21, 2017 01:42
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Huzanko posted:Also true. No, one is true, but your thing is bullshit any way you slice it. Every study that lets reality in shows a consistent movement leftwards by the Dems, but that hurts your persecution complex, so it gets shouted down.
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Jul 21, 2017 01:45
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Fulchrum posted:No, one is true, but your thing is bullshit any way you slice it. Every study that lets reality in shows a consistent movement leftwards by the Dems, but that hurts your persecution complex, so it gets shouted down. A snail's pace is technically considered to be moving, sure, but I think we can demand perhaps a slightly faster pace to the "consistent movement leftwards."
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Jul 21, 2017 01:46
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As long as Democrats are actively sabotaging universal healthcare, trying to criminalize opposition to Israel's apartheid regime, and refuse to raise the minimum wage to $15 without constant and sustained pressure from labor activists and socialists, then yeah it should be every self identified leftists duty to oppose them and the Democratic Party
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Jul 21, 2017 01:49
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WampaLord posted:A snail's pace is technically considered to be moving, sure, but I think we can demand perhaps a slightly faster pace to the "consistent movement leftwards." Considering that people scream and cry and call them traitors for not pushing the mythical full communism now button, refuse to vote for them for fear of damaging purity and handing control over to maniacs constantly, seems like they're doing excellent under the circumstances. And of course the constant dichotomy of "why won't they run openly on more leftist policies"/"They are lying about these leftist policies, gently caress them forever!" apropos to nothing posted:As long as Democrats are actively sabotaging universal healthcare, trying to criminalize opposition to Israel's apartheid regime, and refuse to raise the minimum wage to $15 without constant and sustained pressure from labor activists and socialists, then yeah it should be every self identified leftists duty to oppose them and the Democratic Party See? Leftists care way more about hurting Democrats than Republicans and always will. Dems are in the position of having to defeat the right wing insanity divorced from reality and the left wing insanity divorced from reality.
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Jul 21, 2017 01:50
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Fulchrum posted:Considering that people scream and cry and call them traitors for not pushing the mythical full communism now button, refuse to vote for them for fear of damaging purity and handing control over to maniacs constantly, seems like they're doing excellent under the circumstances. Okay, but I haven't done any of that, so why are you yelling at me? I don't think we'll ever get "Full Communism Now" I'm just asking for something, anything, that is a positive left message.
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Jul 21, 2017 01:52
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Fulchrum posted:No, one is true, but your thing is bullshit any way you slice it. Every study that lets reality in shows a consistent movement leftwards by the Dems, but that hurts your persecution complex, so it gets shouted down. What the gently caress are you even talking about? People were wanting single payer ten years ago and Democrats are only sheepishly talking about it now and have spent almost 10 years running away from supporting Obamacare. We were bombing seven countries in 2017 -https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/09/america-dropped-26171-bombs-2016-obama-legacy Both parties cater to their donors. Each just happens to have some different donors. That's reality. Also, persecution complex? Democrats seem to have a shitfit any time a leftist points out how right-wing their party is. God drat you're a loving idiot.
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Jul 21, 2017 01:55
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Fulchrum posted:Considering that people scream and cry and call them traitors for not pushing the mythical full communism now button, refuse to vote for them for fear of damaging purity and handing control over to maniacs constantly, seems like they're doing excellent under the circumstances. Leftists care about moving the party left. Democrats fight against this at every opportunity and give leftists a choice between the right and the slightly less right. You're a loving moron.
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Jul 21, 2017 01:56
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WampaLord posted:Okay, but I haven't done any of that, so why are you yelling at me? Which we had in the 2016 party platform, the most left platform in the parties history. Which leftists fell over themselves making excuses for why it didn't matter, didn't count, and was just more Centrist lies to trick leftists into giving away their precious purity and voting for wicked Hillary. Do you get the pattern yet? Its not that the Dems don't have principles or a message, its that the idea that the Dems don't have principles or a message is a parasitic self propogating idea that people actively fight to protect. Right wingers only need a single excuse to vote for Team R. They will actively look for any reason to. Meanwhile, Leftists only need a single exzcuse to not vote. And they spend just as much energy trying to find a reason to not vote, as right wingers spend looking for reasons to. THAT is the entirety of the problem. Huzanko posted:Leftists care about moving the party left. Democrats fight against this at every opportunity and give leftists a choice between the right and the slightly less right. You're a loving moron. You mean fighting them tooth and nail by giving the losing candidate representatives in writing the platform, which no party has done in US history? Or handing the lefts golden boy a job when he didn't have the votes to get elected officially? Now cue reasons why these things don't matter that totally aren't pulled straight outta your rear end. The left doesn't want the party to move left, the left wants the party to immediately cede them all power instantly without a single other voice having any form of input or even a single vote. Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 01:59
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Fulchrum posted:Considering that people scream and cry and call them traitors for not pushing the mythical full communism now button, refuse to vote for them for fear of damaging purity and handing control over to maniacs constantly, seems like they're doing excellent under the circumstances. the leftwing insanity of medicare for all? something that a majority of americans already support? at this point universal healthcare is a tangible and credible policy proposal and it's also one that democrats refuse to embrace or advocate for in any meaningful way because of their loyalty to big business. I'm happy to stand side by side by democratic party rank and file in resistance to trump and the republicans and even dem politicians when they do so as well, but if there is to be any lasting positive change for the working class in the US then one of our most immediate challenges is the formation of a political party that won't sell out working people to their corporate donors.
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Jul 21, 2017 01:59
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Fulchrum posted:Which we had in the 2016 party platform, the most left platform in the parties history. loving  The platform doesn't mean poo poo if you can't convince people that you're actually going to do it. Fulchrum posted:Do you get the pattern yet? Its not that the Dems don't have principles or a message No, this is the problem summed up very well, actually. Fulchrum posted:Right wingers only need a single excuse to vote for Team R. THey will actively look for any reason to. Meanwhile, Leftists only need a single exzcuse to not vote. And they spend just as much energy trying to find a reason to not vote, as right wingers spend looking for reasons to. THAT is the entirety of the problem. The overwhelming majority of leftists voted for Hillary.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:00
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Fulchrum posted:Which we had in the 2016 party platform, the most left platform in the parties history. Which leftists fell over themselves making excuses for why it didn't matter, didn't count, and was just more Centrist lies to trick leftists into giving away their precious purity and voting for wicked Hillary. it was a trick. last time we voted for a centrist who promised nice things, he stabbed us in the back and centrists told us we were idiots for every thinking he meant those things. then hillary comes with even shittier promises than obama, and we're supposed to believe she's gonna keep them?
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Jul 21, 2017 02:00
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Fulchrum posted:See? Leftists care way more about hurting Democrats than Republicans and always will. Dems are in the position of having to defeat the right wing insanity divorced from reality and the left wing insanity divorced from reality. If they do, it's only because they've finally started returning the feelings that the dems have always had towards the left. They basically despise the left wing, openly resent needing their votes, and constantly chase any electoral strategy that will allow them to shake them off once and for all.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:03
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Fulchrum posted:Which we had in the 2016 party platform, the most left platform in the parties history. Which leftists fell over themselves making excuses for why it didn't matter, didn't count, and was just more Centrist lies to trick leftists into giving away their precious purity and voting for wicked Hillary. What are you even talking about? 3 million more people voted for HRC than Trump. HRC's campaign was too loving stupid to campaign in the rust belt and to mouth the words people there wanted to hear so she lost because her campaign was a data-driven pile of poo poo. Stop blaming leftists for why HRC lost. If Democrats want leftists to vote for them then maybe they should become a party leftists would want to vote for instead of browbeating an tut-tuting leftists. You don't even need the impotent third-party voters! There are a lot of people to court who don't even vote! And a lot of people who do vote D unenthusiastically. Liberals seem to care more about suppressing socialists than fighting fascists.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:03
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Fulchrum posted:
People care more about people who betray them than about people they have no expectations of, news at 11
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Jul 21, 2017 02:05
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Fulchrum posted:
How is healthcare for all bad? Fulchrum is a good example for why Liberals now get bullied.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:07
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WampaLord posted:loving Condiv posted:it was a trick. last time we voted for a centrist who promised nice things, he stabbed us in the back and centrists told us we were idiots for every thinking he meant those things. then hillary comes with even shittier promises than obama, and we're supposed to believe she's gonna keep them? Fulchrum posted:Which leftists fell over themselves making excuses for why it didn't matter, didn't count, and was just more Centrist lies to trick leftists into giving away their precious purity and voting for wicked Hillary. See? Just like I said. Also, Casey Finnigan, please show me in Condiv and Agnosticnixie's posts how much the left truly appreciates Obama for moving the window on healthcare to the left. apropos to nothing posted:the leftwing insanity of medicare for all? something that a majority of americans already support? at this point universal healthcare is a tangible and credible policy proposal and it's also one that democrats refuse to embrace or advocate for in any meaningful way because of their loyalty to big business. I'm happy to stand side by side by democratic party rank and file in resistance to trump and the republicans and even dem politicians when they do so as well, but if there is to be any lasting positive change for the working class in the US then one of our most immediate challenges is the formation of a political party that won't sell out working people to their corporate donors. 90% of Americans support Gun Control. Guess Dems need to go all in on that next election because then we're sure to win. Or maybe, just maybe, things poll better in a vacuum, and the idea of a policy polls way the gently caress better than actual legislation which can be opposed. Crowsbeak posted:How is healthcare for all bad? Huzanko posted:Liberals seem to care more about suppressing socialists than fighting fascists. Said with the exact same persecution complex that had Teahadists claim that Obama was worse towards Christians than ISIS. quote:What are you even talking about? 3 million more people voted for HRC than Trump. HRC's campaign was too loving stupid to campaign in the rust belt and to mouth the words people there wanted to hear so she lost because her campaign was a data-driven pile of poo poo. Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 02:10
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Says healthcare for all is good, then attacks people for wanting it. Hmmm. I think Fulchrum might just be lying here.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:11
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Crowsbeak posted:Says healthcare for all is good, then attacks people for wanting it. Hmmm. I think Fulchrum might just be lying here. I want a piece of cake. Lets burn down this bakery until they give me one. Hey man, why do you hate cake so much that you oppose us?
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Jul 21, 2017 02:14
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Fulchrum posted:I want a piece of cake. Lets burn down this bakery until they give me one. Well you've kept punching us, and denying us the cake. So maybe we need to try a different strategy. Now burning down the bakery might be to far.But say disabling the bread oven is on the table till you give us the cake.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:16
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Fulchrum posted:
so when something is unpopular then we can't do it because it's not popular, but when something is popular we can't do it because it will lose popularity the moment we try. this does not sound like a very tenable strategy to effecting social or economic progress.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:16
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apropos to nothing posted:so when something is unpopular then we can't do it because it's not popular, but when something is popular we can't do it because it will lose popularity the moment we try. this does not sound like a very tenable strategy to effecting social or economic progress. You can only run on topics that are 50.1% popular (and also that the donors have okayed).
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Jul 21, 2017 02:17
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Fulchrum posted:
The democrats wrapping themselves in the flag to rehabilitate Bush era monsters throughout 2016 and 2017 did give that strong impression. Also lol at the idea that Obama moved things more than a single iota to the left. I'm honestly more bitter that he completely caved on foreign policy within minutes of taking power.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:17
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I would encourage you to give this interview a listen from a recent This Is Hell! episode where Susan Kang talks in some detail about the serious problems with how polling data is used to frame political arguments in such a way as to prevent any kind of movement, specifically by the Democratic Party: https://thisishell.com/interviews/943-susan-kang
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Jul 21, 2017 02:18
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Crowsbeak posted:Well you've kept punching us, and denying us the cake. So maybe we need to try a different strategy. Now burning down the bakery might be to far.But say disabling the bread oven is on the table till you give us the cake. Just because you drew a comic in which the big bad democrats punched you and took your cake away, that doesn't make it true. Agnosticnixie posted:The democrats wrapping themselves in the flag to rehabilitate Bush era monsters throughout 2016 and 2017 did give that strong impression. Tell us more about how stopping torture isn't a good thing. Or is this going to be the list of "war crimes", which are similar to actual war crimes, except in all the ways that actually matter even a loving iota. You know, just like "imperialism", which is like real imperialism except that the US wields no form of political or economic power over the countries in question and poses no form of threat to their governments, so is really the opposite of imperialism. Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 02:20
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i thank obama for handing trump a supercharged NSA
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Jul 21, 2017 02:20
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Fulchrum posted:Just because you drew a comic in which the big bad democrats punched you and took your cake away, that doesn't make it true. Yeah I don't draw comics, and Lneolib its time to leave the party. We're either going to tkae it over. Or well let it die. To bad, but then the left can move in and create something dedicated to eliminating neoliberals and other rightists from having a part in the political discourse.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:21
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah I don't draw comics, and Lneolib its time to leave the party. We're either going to tkae it over. Or well let it die. To bad, but then the left can move in and create something dedicated to eliminating neoliberals and other rightists from having a part in the political discourse. Its weird how you have this amazing power to instantly destroy theRepublican party with your sheer power, yet are so utterly cowed and powerless by the Democrats, who according to you, are the same as the Republicans. I would think you'd use that power to get rid of Democrats and wouldn't need to just sit on your fat asses and do nothing to contribute whatsoever while feeling smug.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:26
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Fulchrum posted:Its weird how you have this amazing power to instantly destroy theRepublican party with your sheer power, yet are so utterly cowed and powerless by the Democrats, who according to you, are the same as the Republicans. I would think you'd use that power to get rid of Democrats and wouldn't need to just sit on your fat asses and do nothing to contribute whatsoever while feeling smug. Well we are doing things. We're working on the local level to empower workers, and to eliminate you're kind of thinking from local branches of the party. Enemies like you will be driven to voting GOP. Really I suspect you'd vote for them if you were not in one of the the non accepted groups. You're greedy and narcissistic enough.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:29
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apropos to nothing posted:I would encourage you to give this interview a listen from a recent This Is Hell! episode where Susan Kang talks in some detail about the serious problems with how polling data is used to frame political arguments in such a way as to prevent any kind of movement, specifically by the Democratic Party: https://thisishell.com/interviews/943-susan-kang I'm listening to this now, and it really speaks to the failures at every level that was the Clinton campaign. They were hearing from the Rust Belt volunteers "Hey it's not going so well out here!" and because they couldn't plug that sentiment into a model as a numeric variable, they ignored it. loving hell.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:30
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Fulchrum posted:See? Just like I said. My dude you are stuck on this persecution complex nonsense. Things need to change radically in order for this country, and the world, to become a better place for anyone but the 1%. The left wants that future. The Democrats want the same future as Republicans but a little less terrible. Democrats don't want true liberation or true freedom of thought; they don't want things to REALLY change. http://twitter.com/historyinflicks/status/839732795706593281 Do you even understand that there's a whole spectrum of policy that could be enacted between the current neoliberal system and "full communism now (tm)" that leftists would be happy with? Republicans want to make the world a hellscape. Democrats want to make the world incrementally worse - just slow enough for markets to adjust and for their donors to profit from it.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:31
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