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I'm just spitballing here, but if we want to stop people from thinking we're just as bad as Republicans, what if we.......stopped trying to triangulate toward Republican economics?
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Jul 21, 2017 05:58
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Sephyr posted:
Funny how Yglecias has gone SocDem since the election.
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Jul 21, 2017 06:00
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VitalSigns posted:I'm just spitballing here, but if we want to stop people from thinking we're just as bad as Republicans, what if we.......stopped trying to triangulate toward Republican economics? We should also stop calling for the murder of babies. Oh, sorry, I thought we were just throwing out things that don't correspond to reality.
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Jul 21, 2017 06:03
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Fulchrum posted:No, to do that, we need to somehow figure out a way to stop this constant outpouring of "Democrats hate you, they don't care about you, they're just as bad as Republicans" that some chucklefucks keep putting out, that seems untethered to reality in any way. Like, if we could figure out a way to stop people actively searching for reasons to oppose the Dems and swear to never participate until they're all gone. I once tried to actively search for reasons to oppose the Dems but I didn't find anything because I live in Michigan and Wisconsin.
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Jul 21, 2017 06:03
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VitalSigns posted:I'm just spitballing here, but if we want to stop people from thinking we're just as bad as Republicans, what if we.......stopped trying to triangulate toward Republican economics? Why cater to a group that you expect to vote for you, regardless of what you do? 
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Jul 21, 2017 06:04
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Stop quoting Abuela and her associates, fake news, fake news!
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Jul 21, 2017 06:05
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Jizz Festival posted:Like every reactionary in history, you assume that the unrest is being caused by some sinister external force. If people don't think the democrats care about them, a good way to fix that would be to actually get stuff done that helps people rather than rooting out the people who are sowing dissent. Unfortunately you're stuck in this mindset that real change is impossible, or perhaps for you it's even undesirable. It kinda figures. After the "I used to consider myself a feminist, but then someone told me it's bad to hit on women during job interviews and now I'm a Youtube MRA reactionary" brand of shitbird, we were about overdue for the "I was a progressive, but then people said letting the banks run wild while selling out the safety net a bit at a time was counterproductive, so I became an America Heritage Institute shill" wave. Care to tell us how Reagan was actually too kind to the air-traffic controllers, Fulchrum? I'm sure it's on the tip of your tongue by now.
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Jul 21, 2017 06:05
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Fulchrum posted:No, to do that, we need to somehow figure out a way to stop this constant outpouring of "Democrats hate you, they don't care about you, they're just as bad as Republicans" that some chucklefucks keep putting out, that seems untethered to reality in any way. Like, if we could figure out a way to stop people actively searching for reasons to oppose the Dems and swear to never participate until they're all gone. http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/340732-dems-try-new-slogan-have-you-seen-the-other-guys http://www.newsweek.com/democrats-stealing-papa-johns-slogan-2018-639904 There is absolutely no reason to hate the Democrats and they inspire me to vote for them because... They still haven't even come up with any sort of messaging that resonates with voters and the reason for that is because they are beholden to donors.
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Jul 21, 2017 06:06
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Beyond Fulchrum being a troll. the other possiblity of his actions is provided in this excellent article from the LA review of Books. [quote="LARB" The Blathering Superego at the End of History By Emmett Rensin 10818 10 25 JUNE 18, 2017 LIBERALISM IS NOT working. Something deep within the mechanism has cracked. All our wonk managers, our expert stewards of the world, have lost their way. They wander desert highways in a daze, wondering why the brakes locked up, why the steering wheel came off, how the engine caught on fire. Their charts lie abandoned by the roadside. It was all going so well just a moment ago. History was over. The technocratic order was globalizing the world; people were becoming accustomed to the permanent triumph of a slightly kinder exploitation. What happened? All they can recall is a loud thump in the undercarriage, an abrupt loss of control. Was it Brexit? Trump? Suddenly the tires were bursting and smoke was pouring into the vehicle, then a flash. The next thing they could remember, our liberals were standing beside a smoldering ruin, blinking in the hot sun, their power stolen, their world collapsing, their predictions all proven wrong. In the six months since the election of Donald Trump, American liberals have managed to regroup, assembling themselves into a self-styled “Resistance” and attempting to reassert control over a world they no longer recognize. But something happened out there in the desert. There is something off about them now. On every level, our most prominent technocrats have entered the new year like uncanny valley copies of themselves, stuttering and miming their old habits, with each take trying to remember what their lives felt like before the accident. They can’t quite get the message right. For months, serious journalists studied The Origins of Totalitarianism like a divination manual, wondering when Trump would pass his enabling act. First, the president was a fascist, until he failed to consolidate power. Then he was an authoritarian, until he showed no interest in micro- or macro-management. Then he merely had authoritarian tendencies, or something, and at any rate was probably a Kremlin agent. The situation is no better on television. Rachel Maddow, once the charming spokesperson of a kinder world, crazily unveils tax returns she found in Al Capone’s vault. Keith Olbermann — never charming but at least self-confident — now squats on the floor in promotional photos, swaddled in an American flag. The newer stars of the left — the Louise Mensches and Eric Garlands — are using game theory to outwit invisible Soviet assassins. Elected Democrats are paralyzed. They repeat, over and over, that none of this is normal, commit themselves to the fight, and then roll over, confirming the president’s appointments, praising the beauty of a missile strike, or begging the FBI to save them. Hillary Clinton emerges from the woods to blame Jim Comey, the DNC, and the Russians for her loss, and the day before the United States withdraws from the Paris Climate Agreement, she tweets a covfefe joke. On television, in journals, in the halls of Congress, none of the old methods by which American liberals enforced their claim to superior expertise are working anymore. For all their “resistance,” the greatest impediment to Donald Trump remains his own stupidity. Despite every evil and crime of his administration, the most ambitious Democratic victory on the horizon is making Mike Pence president. Our liberals are right: none of this is normal. This isn’t how it used to be. Everywhere, our best and brightest blink. Are they still in the desert? Is all this an hallucination, a bad dream? So far, critics of contemporary liberalism have attributed all of this disorder to the shock of our recent election. It’s just the ordinary chaos, they insist, that follows an unexpected loss. But something deeper is amiss. Something was lost in the confusion after they crashed into November, and nothing, not even future victories, will bring it back. This breakdown has been a long time coming. These last few months have only made it more obvious, and more complete. What happened? ¤ The most significant development in the past 30 years of liberal self-conception was the replacement of politics understood as an ideological conflict with politics understood as a struggle against idiots unwilling to recognize liberalism’s monopoly on empirical reason. The trouble with liberalism’s enemies was no longer that they were evil, although they might be that too. The problem, reinforced by Daily Kos essays in your Facebook feed and retweeted Daily Show clips, was that liberalism’s enemies were factually wrong about the world. Just take a look at this chart … This shift was a necessary accommodation to the fact that, beginning with Bill Clinton, the slim ideological differences that existed between the Democrats and the GOP were replaced with differences of style. Clinton’s “Third Way” promised to be every bit the dupe-servant of war and profit its rivals were, but to do it with the measured confidence of an expert. The New Democrats would destroy the labor movement, but sigh about it. They would frown while they voted to authorize the next war. They would make only the concessions necessary to bolster the flailing engine of finance capital, but they would do it with the latest research in the world. The point, as Jonathan Chait made clear in his 2005 manifesto for this new liberalism, “Fact Finders,” was not the moral content of any particular policy, but the fact that liberals in the 21st century were open to evidence, whereas conservatives were not. “The contrast between economic liberalism and economic conservatism,” he wrote, “ultimately lies […] in different epistemologies. Liberalism is a more deeply pragmatic governing philosophy — more open to change, more receptive to empiricism, and ultimately better at producing policies that improve the human condition.” It is not a coincidence that Chait’s essay quickly devolves into a defense of welfare reform. Liberalism remained slightly kinder than pure reaction — not quite so racist, not so terribly brutal to the poor — but even these commitments were subsumed by the ideology of pure competence. Bigotry wasn’t evil, it was just stupid, an impediment to growth. Health care reform and the welfare state were not moral necessities, they were the best means of keeping workers healthy and productive. The notion that knowledge asymmetries lay at the root of all political conflict was quickly transmuted into the basis of policy itself. If liberals became masters of the world due to their superior respect for facts, then education — not redistribution — was the only hope for the dispossessed. If liberals believed in climate change because scientists told them they should, then the trouble was not the metastatic excesses of capital but the failure of reactionaries to bow to empirical consensus. The result was an American political movement whose center was a moral void. When John Kerry spoke out against the death penalty, his opposition was based in flawed application — the punishment just wasn’t smart. When he criticized Bush’s handling of the War in Iraq, his position was similar: he would continue the war but be more strategic about it. When Kerry lost, American liberals opined that there were just too many rubes out there. They would have voted better — smarter — if only they had had the right data visualizations in front of them. When Barack Obama won, and then passed the Heritage Foundation’s health care policy while carrying out a drone war responsible for the incineration of children in half a dozen sovereign nations, he did it while remaining the smartest guy in the room. That was what mattered. At the dawn of the 21st century, we stood on the doorstep of a permanent managerial world order. The wonks just needed to finish explaining it to the rest of us. The 2016 presidential election was meant to be the final victory of the wonk-managers, the triumph of a West Wing fantasy wherein the leadership class didn’t quite do anything beyond displaying the sublime confidence of cerebral people hurrying down the hallways of power with matters well in hand. Donald Trump was a perfect foe: the forces of stupidity and reaction, starkly manifested, were about to be dispatched. By this point, the knowledge-asymmetry theory of politics had become a commitment so pervasive that its champions could articulate it explicitly: Hillary Clinton was the most qualified candidate in history, full stop. The Clinton campaign was technocratic liberalism incarnate. Its surrogates might have been empty or evil, but they were smart. Its ideas might have been inert, but they were backed up by the latest charts. The campaign’s messaging apparatus was a digital marvel, cooked up by the best computers Robby Mook could buy. The Clinton campaign believed that it would win because it predicted that it would win, and because the capacity to predict and manage was precisely the competence Clinton’s team was selling. But then Clinton lost. The car crashed in the desert instead. ¤ Fake news — “Fake news!” in its current incarnation — did not originate with Donald Trump. Fake news originated in the liberal impulse. On November 9, 2016, liberals who had not yet seized on the Russians as the proximate cause of their defeat attributed the election results to a widespread and decentralized propaganda campaign: social networks had allowed distorted or even outright false stories to go viral, sometimes outperforming real news items, and it was the ignorance and confirmation bias engendered by these stories that gave Trump his essential margins in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. It is significant that this was liberalism’s immediate reaction, before international conspiracies or morally tinged appeals to bigotry took its place. Despite spending 20 years fact-checking its way into losing control of every level of government in the United States, the Democratic Party’s first recourse was to fact-check once again. Here we begin to see what is so strange about today’s liberals. It isn’t that they’ve changed. Rather, the political landscape has been irrevocably altered. Liberalism is only doing what it always has, the only thing it can do. Fact check Donald: You’re wrong! run hundred-post replies to each of the president’s tweets. Sigmund Freud conceived of the superego as a normative instrument, but it is better understood as a censorious machine. Its strictures, after all, do not come from some interior wellspring; it is not a moral imagination. The rules — and they are rules, nothing more — are received from outside, then internalized and enforced. The superego, even in Freud, does not direct the ego toward high principle or even a particular sensitivity to injustice. “The super-ego can be thought of as a type of conscience that punishes misbehavior with feelings of guilt,” Freud wrote in Introduction to Psychoanalysis. When a transgression is detected, the superego inflicts a psychic wound. It is not a conscience so much as a fully automated priest. The mechanism is simple: sin goes in, censure comes out. Slip up too much and you’re excommunicated. I am not qualified to make, nor do I want to make, any claims about the psychological character of any particular American liberal. And I am not at all convinced that Freudian psychoanalysis constitutes the most useful way to do so, in any case. But the superego as a metaphor for the collective operation of the liberal world order throws a great deal of much-needed light on what we are observing in the wake of the 2016 election. When history is meant to be over and a single political faction begins to conceive of itself as the permanent manager of a static world, then that faction ceases to be political in the ordinary sense. Politics, in its classic incarnation, is the art of deriving an is from an ought; the point, as Marx famously said, is not to describe the world but to change it. But if the world is as it ought to be already and the essential task is to maintain it — that is, to police the circumscribed boundaries of permissible behavior and ideas — then those tasked with that maintenance must conceive of themselves as acting above politics itself. They become a superego, beyond the libidinal whims of any faction and dedicated not to some alternative vision of the world but to resisting all impulse toward alternatives. Possibility goes in, correction comes out. The End of History suggests a perfectly healthy mind; thus, any attempt to alter this situation is dangerous. But the trouble with superegos is that, once they have taken on this role, they cannot cease to perform it. When the id can be kept in control, all is well. But when it can’t, then the result is not the superego’s surrender — it is repetitious, manic dysfunction. It becomes the blathering superego at the end of history. ¤ The ordinary understanding of managerial liberalism — that it is a normal political faction of the capitalist center-left — leads inevitably to a number of difficult-to-answer questions. Why, for example, do liberals who routinely insist they support more ambitious progressive programs in their hearts, only rejecting them for now on pragmatic grounds, nonetheless oppose any such leftward movement when it becomes a realistic possibility? Why do they take up that opposition with a special enthusiasm, one that often feels more aggressive and personal than their rejection of their official rivals on the right? The reaction of American liberals to even the moderate-left candidacy of Bernie Sanders reached its apex not in any argument about policy but in Hillary Clinton declaring that single-payer health care was “never, ever” going to happen. The present campaign within the British Labour Party to sabotage Jeremy Corbyn moves along similar lines: the problem is that Corbyn is irresponsible and can’t possibly win, a position that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The left now reacts to its notional allies with the cluck-cluck chiding ordinarily directed toward disobedient kids. I do not expect this will be much abated by Corbyn’s extraordinary success in an actual election. If liberalism has ceased to function as a political faction so much as a censorious regency for capital, then there is little difference, in its view, between left and right — both are id-ish impulses that must be suppressed. The language of irresponsibility and childishness is not just a messaging contrivance but an explicit statement of core values: the trouble with all of these radical politics is that they want to pull society up by the root — and the root, as any adult knows, must be kept firmly in place. The fact that the right receives a larger share of liberalism’s disdain is not a reflection of a larger distaste but simply of the fact that the right happens to be winning. That it might be winning because managerial liberalism has hamstrung progressive impulses is an unthinkable idea, dutifully suppressed. Like any superego, managerial liberalism is concerned first and foremost with appearances. This explains why, in the face of so much bad policy, liberals are incessantly talking about decorum. Thus, the vulgarity and impropriety of Donald Trump are more offensive than his policies, the callousness of his collusion with dictators more insulting than the collusion itself (ordinarily, that is done more quietly, and only with governments like Saudi Arabia, which can butcher their own citizens but not threaten American hegemony). Meanwhile, liberal politicians and journalists express frustration with the rude socialists popping up in their Twitter feeds and at their town halls, refusing to respect their elders. It’s all so embarrassing and juvenile, they claim, when what is needed is a sober, adult response to Donald Trump — never mentioning that the adults were all routed at the polls by this Monster from the Id. ¤ What has changed in these past few years has only been the capacity of our liberal managers to maintain control. The internet, as the truism goes, is a forum for the id and while it became for liberals a forum for the superego — a place to censor and correct and chide in real time — the essential nature of the medium chipped away at their control in the same manner it chips away at the capacity of any individual superego to rein in the bad behavior of individuals: it’s just easier to act out online. The deeper cause was material: control and propriety are easier to maintain in lush times, and as Western inequality grows in the shadow of an apocalyptic crisis of global ecology, it becomes more and more difficult to suppress radical impulses of all kinds. What became strange, in this new year, was not the behavior of our liberals. That remained the same. What became strange was the world. For 60 years, liberal managers believed that their political authority was derived from their intellectual authority. When their political authority was suddenly and violently ripped away, they tried to reestablish it by reminding the world that they still knew better than the rest of us. But they got the order of their power backward: without political power, there is no power to assert the boundaries of the normal. “Fake news” was meant to chide the new right into complacency. Instead, the new right, newly in control of our whole government, simply stole the phrase and projected it back again. Now The New York Times and CNN are the Fake News. But a superego can only do one thing — correct — and so it says “No you!” while its enemies shrug and carry on. The truth is that intellectual authority does not cause political authority, and political authority does not cause intellectual superiority. Both are derived from class power. For 60 years, capital believed that it had the whole world well in hand, and so its most important servants were just the smiling reformists who could keep it that way. But the world changed. Now money has no need for its superego. Managerial liberalism is doing what any superego must under severe stress: continue, against all hope, to assert control. Yet, faced with an ascendant global right and a resurgent global left, its correcting and corralling impulses have gone haywire. It becomes frenzied, elevating cranks like Louise Mensch in a last-ditch effort to reestablish its authority, shouting this is not normal this is not normal into a void. But what is abnormal is not any particular political state, it is the accelerating collapse of the superego’s capacity to regulate the behavior of the body politic. It is the realization that history is not over, and that nothing — not the temporary restoration of the Democratic Party to power, or the defeat of every fascist in Europe, or the transformation of the United States’s young socialists into eager NIMBY liberals — will ever make it stop. Something strange did happen out there in the desert: the liberal order collapsed, and its survivors wandered back into society, unaware they were now out of a job. Capital has new servants, and new enemies, no longer content merely to battle over a four percent difference in the top marginal tax rate. In the face of these epochal changes, the superego of managerial liberalism is impotent. On some level it knows that. But it cannot simply abdicate, and it will take a while yet for it to wither entirely away. In the meantime, all it can do is blather, make empty threats of guilt and shame, issue fact-checks and explainers, shout from the roadside to an indifferent planet as the whole world goes libidinal and mad. ¤ Emmett Rensin is an essayist and contributing editor for the Los Angeles Review of Books. His work has appeared in The Atlantic, The New Republic, the Los Angeles Times, and other venues. RELATED Punditry and Commitment By Emmett Rensin Apology: On Jonathan Chait’s Obama By Emmett Rensin The Crisis of Liberalism, Part II: All Policy, No Power By David Levitus Somebody That He Trusts and Likes: Inside Donald Trump’s Mind By Joshua Wolf Shenk Our Sovereign Father, Donald Trump By Brian Connolly MOST READ ARTICLES Reverse Robin Hood: The Historical Scam of Global Development By Levi Vonk The Folkloric and the Fantastic: Hiromi Kawakami’s “Record of a Night Too Brief” By M. W. Larson C. E. Morgan’s Great American Novel By Morten Høi Jensen Pulling the Fire Alarm: The “L. A. Times” Editorial Board Versus the Bully-in-Chief By Tom Zoellner Game of Thrones, "Dragonstone" By Aaron Bady, Sarah Mesle [/quote]
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Jul 21, 2017 06:09
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Fulchrum posted:Oh, sorry, I thought we were just throwing out things that don't correspond to reality. Help me out here, Fulchrum. Point out to me which of the events below 'don't correspond to reality'. - Obama and the Dems failed to rein in the financial apparatus in any degree after the 2008 crisis. In fact, he appointed their alumni to key positions. Repeatedly. - Hillary Clinton has good transit with the same financial elites, uses them to fund her campaigns, and makes a bundle doing speeches for them. She also refused to release the transcripts of said speeches, further reinforcing the image of her being too chummy with those she should be keeping in check. - Her campaign officers deliberately neglected blue-collar rust belt states in favor of winning over GOP moderates (were they lured in by all the juicy left-wing stuff in her program?) - She backed TPP at first, then turned on it. Not a big deal in my book, but it didn't help with her "slimy pol who will say anything" image. - She (or her staff) picked a boring nobody VP after a heated primary, saying he would deliver his state. Which he didn't.
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Jul 21, 2017 06:14
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Fulchrum posted:We should also stop calling for the murder of babies. We're...we're not triangulating in order to get votes? But just last page when someone asked you why we don't come out for leftist policies unambiguously and with conviction you said: Fulchrum posted:Because it drives up Republican voter rolls and doesn't do a goddamn thing to increase voter turnout among leftists who continue to find excuses for why they can't bear to support the Democrats, like this one: so it kinda sounds like we are trying to pander to the middle to lure Republicans over to us?
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Jul 21, 2017 06:19
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Sephyr posted:- She (or her staff) picked a boring nobody VP after a heated primary, saying he would deliver his state. Which he didn't. Nitpick: Hillary won Tim Kaine's home state of Virginia
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Jul 21, 2017 06:20
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Fulchrum posted:Again, either every leftist voted for Hillary and its not your fault, or thee are huge swathes of leftists out there who didn't vote because they weren't inspired by $15 an hour, fully renewable energy by 2028 and ending the opioid epidemic. Pick one you disingenuous shits. There are people engaged with the political process, and people not engaged with the political process. Among the people engaged in the political process, there are leftists and non-leftists. The leftists engaged in the political process, I'm claiming, overwhelmingly voted for Hillary. Among the people not engaged in the political process, there are voters who would be inspired by $15 an hour, fully renewable energy by 2028 and ending the opioid epidemic, etc. , and voters that wouldn't. If the democratic party did more to work on achieving those aforementioned policies, then there's a subset of non-engaged voters who would become engaged and vote Democrat. There are enough of those voters -- according to publicly avaliable, non-controversial data (opinion polls) -- that, if the Democratic leadership fully endorsed them, the Democrats would stop getting owned.
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Jul 21, 2017 06:29
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Crowsbeak posted:Beyond Fulchrum being a troll. the other possiblity of his actions is provided in this excellent article from the LA review of Books. That was freaking masterful, Crowsbeak. Thanks for bringing it into the thread. A painful but enrichening read.
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Jul 21, 2017 06:30
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VitalSigns posted:Nitpick: Hillary won Tim Kaine's home state of Virginia Agh! Right you are. I kept thinking he was from PA for some dumb reason. I concede to Fulchrum on every point now.
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Jul 21, 2017 06:34
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Sephyr posted:That was freaking masterful, Crowsbeak. Thanks for bringing it into the thread. A painful but enrichening read. Agreed. A very pro read.
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Jul 21, 2017 06:39
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Crowsbeak posted:Beyond Fulchrum being a troll. the other possiblity of his actions is provided in this excellent article from the LA review of Books. Oh man, that part about liberal's chiding of the left feeling "more aggressive and personal" than their dealings with their official enemies on the right...
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Jul 21, 2017 06:50
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Fulchrum posted:We should also stop calling for the murder of babies.  Works Cited: http://mattbruenig.com/
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Jul 21, 2017 06:54
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Yeah I think if we have to ever restart this thread that article should be on the first post.
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Jul 21, 2017 06:56
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I find Emmett Rensin somewhat hilarious as he derides the smugness of the American Liberal, then follows up with possibly the smuggest thing I've read in years: quote:am not qualified to make, nor do I want to make, any claims about the psychological character of any particular American liberal. And I am not at all convinced that Freudian psychoanalysis constitutes the most useful way to do so, in any case. But the superego as a metaphor for the collective operation of the liberal world order throws a great deal of much-needed light on what we are observing in the wake of the 2016 election.
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Jul 21, 2017 07:00
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Sephyr posted:That was freaking masterful, Crowsbeak. Thanks for bringing it into the thread. A painful but enrichening read.  A long read but basically spells out the thesis of the thread in no uncertain terms.
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Jul 21, 2017 07:00
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Sephyr posted:Help me out here, Fulchrum. Point out to me which of the events below 'don't correspond to reality'. So in terms of what counts for actual policy and isn't just that she didn't burst into flames at being near to those eeevil bankers, and knowing full well that leftists would take stating a political truth and construe it as a monstrous backstab to them, the only thing of substance in this list is the claim that they didn't do anything to regulate finance. Which I'm sure is why those industries spent so much work trying to destroy Dodd Frank. Sorry, Dodd what? Must be some Goldman Sach executive who was given a bonus, can't be any kind of regulation. Also, Hillary won Virginia you complete loving imbecile. call to action posted:Oh man, that part about liberal's chiding of the left feeling "more aggressive and personal" than their dealings with their official enemies on the right... Oh wait, you thouhgt that pile of crap was worthwhile?
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Jul 21, 2017 07:02
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El Pollo Blanco posted:I find Emmett Rensin somewhat hilarious as he derides the smugness of the American Liberal, then follows up with possibly the smuggest thing I've read in years: You are not wrong there, but it still resonates. I'm a med student who plans to go into psychiatry and love my mental health classes, and one thing that people miss in the usual "Id = bad, SuperEgo = good" reduction is that the SuperEgo is not really more rational than the other parts. It modulates your impulses based on a perception of greater society, but nothing guarantees that its perception of that society is correct, or that its modulation happens at the right level or intensity. And it is gleefuly unaware when it messes up most of the time, all too happy to blame it stwo brothers for any problems that might happen.
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Jul 21, 2017 07:08
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Fulchrum is a mentally ill moron and we'd all be better off if you stopped engaging him
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Jul 21, 2017 07:09
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Fulchrum posted:So in terms of what counts for actual policy and isn't just that she didn't burst into flames at being near to those eeevil bankers, and knowing full well that leftists would take stating a political truth and construe it as a monstrous backstab to them, the only thing of substance in this list is the claim that they didn't do anything to regulate finance. Which I'm sure is why those industries spent so much work trying to destroy Dodd Frank. Sorry, Dodd what? Must be some Goldman Sach executive who was given a bonus, can't be any kind of regulation. Yawn. The Virginia screw-up was pointed out before you did, and I owned up to it. Nice meltdown anyway, though. It was an opportunity to show class in being right for a change, and you had to be an rear end. People have been posting actual quotes from financial bigshots slobbering over Hillary and pretty much admitting any populaist noises she makes are just that, pleasant noises. And it's hilarious that you dismiss everything else out of hand. How Hillary and the party ran her campaign doesn't matter? I thought 'electability' trumped (ha-ha) all. Being seen as out of touch and compromised in a year in which people were largely pissed off with the status quo all over the West (i.e Brexit, Trump even being a thing) is also not a factor worth handling? For one dismissing the article Croswbeak posted, you fit it to a T. Also, you pretty much howled into the storm a page or two ago that your political reason of being right now is to make leftists shut up. Can I feel a bit persecuted over that, honey?
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Jul 21, 2017 07:19
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Fulchrum is a mentally ill moron and we'd all be better off if you stopped engaging him Agreed. Should have stopped before seeing this, but I'm sleepless and head-achey, which is a bad combo for spotting fruitless discussions. In more worthwhile topics, have there been any local-level politicians that have made good waves recently? I remember some lady in Seattle or someplace that got elected on a ridiculously lefty platform.
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Jul 21, 2017 07:30
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Fulchrum posted:You mean something like "They are, you dipshits are just too busy huffing your own farts to notice"? As I said before, when they move to the left it is because of voter pressure. If every single leftist/Democrat suddenly agreed with you and just said "you know what, Democrats are fine as they are" there would be literally no reason for them to move left (or change at all, for that matter). And regardless, it is historically super obvious that the Democrats can't be relied upon to move to the left as much as possible. See the New/Third Way Democrats (of which Obama was at least influenced, if not outright a supporter), who are explicitly in opposition to more progressive/left-leaning Democrats. Like, I understand that there are some dumb people on the left, but there are at least as many (and realistically far, far more) dumb people in the center (and the right goes without saying), so it comes off as very bizarre when folks like you hyper-focus ire at the left. A good example is the "leftists are racist/sexist" thing, when polls literally prove the complete opposite (that Sanders voters were on average less racist than Clinton voters). And that's not even taking into account the fact that it makes more sense to focus criticism on bad elements who actually hold power instead of the left (who you yourself claim to be weak and meaningless). edit: Just to be clear, I completely agree with you that it is a bad idea to either not vote or vote third party, provided you're in a state where it matters. But that's something to address on a person to person basis. On the occasion someone in this thread has said they voted for Trump (and I think one dude voted for Johnson), everyone jumped on them because that's a pretty indefensible decision. But most people in this thread did vote Clinton in the general, and when referring to large populations just saying "why won't people do the logical thing!" accomplishes nothing, and in reality (which you claim to be such a fan of), you need to persuade people that your candidate is worth voting for. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 07:31
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Sephyr posted:You are not wrong there, but it still resonates. I'm a med student who plans to go into psychiatry and love my mental health classes, and one thing that people miss in the usual "Id = bad, SuperEgo = good" reduction is that the SuperEgo is not really more rational than the other parts. It modulates your impulses based on a perception of greater society, but nothing guarantees that its perception of that society is correct, or that its modulation happens at the right level or intensity. And it is gleefuly unaware when it messes up most of the time, all too happy to blame it stwo brothers for any problems that might happen. I do not necessarily disagree with Rensin's general thesis relating to superego and the American Liberal, but I am not inclined to take his writing as gospel, which a lot of people on the left seem to be doing at the moment. His approach to vacillating between 'political violence bad, political violence maybe not bad?', and castigating smug Liberals for viciously attacking individuals like Kim Davis, while at the same time complaining that American Liberals reserves most of their hate for leftists (rather than their opponents on the right), just seems disingenuous and rubs me the wrong way. Also, his mocking of the Russian collusion/election hacking thing irritates me, simply because it is possible to be a leftist, and also believe that Russia's destabilisation attempts are an issue in general, even if the the response by some Democrats of 'this is entirely the reason we lost' is laughable. e: Also, I dislike the way he tries to channel Heller in his writing style sometimes, because he isn't good at it. El Pollo Blanco fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 07:36
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Crowsbeak posted:Beyond Fulchrum being a troll. the other possiblity of his actions is provided in this excellent article from the LA review of Books. Is it possible for a forum to stand up and clap?
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Jul 21, 2017 07:36
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Sephyr posted:Ahh yes, those "Hillary is way too much of a centrist!" right wing attacks against Hillary. All over Drudge and Breitbart they were, concerned about her and her conservative ways, fearing that a new Tatcher would appear on the other side of pond! You're posting in the thread that had people seriously arguing that Hillary's campaign logo was modeled after Goldwater's, because she had campaigned for him you see, and that's what she really believed now. It isn't delusional to say that some people on the left focused on right wing attacks against Hillary instead of focusing on her real flaws.
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Jul 21, 2017 07:43
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Sephyr posted:Yawn. The Virginia screw-up was pointed out before you did, and I owned up to it. Nice meltdown anyway, though. It was an opportunity to show class in being right for a change, and you had to be an rear end. Good, you admit you were wrong on that, so if you just admit you were wrong about everything else, I'll give you the credit you seem to think you reset. Hmm, I can't imagine any reason why people actively wanted to see the candidate more likely to deregulate their industry, would say things like this to drive down votes for Hillary. Well, there's one reason, but that can't be possible. Everyone knows only Hillary lies. And anyway, if that were the case, you'd be some kind of a loving idiot. Yes, Bernie Bros continual nonstop attempt to legitimize right wing attacks on Hillary as corrupt was a bad thing, glad we agree on this, but what mind telling me whay the gently caress that has to do with the Dems moving right, which is what that rambling list of screeching was supposed to be proof of. You are allowed to feel exactly as persecuted as a toddler screaming in the middle of the store and his mother telling him to please...just...shut...UP! For exactly the same reason.
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Jul 21, 2017 07:45
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DeadlyMuffin posted:You're posting in the thread that had people seriously arguing that Hillary's campaign logo was modeled after Goldwater's, because she had campaigned for him you see, and that's what she really believed now. It isn't delusional to say that some people on the left focused on right wing attacks against Hillary instead of focusing on her real flaws. saying she campaigned for goldwater is a rightwing attack?
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Jul 21, 2017 07:59
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Condiv posted:saying she campaigned for goldwater is a rightwing attack? Saying she modeled her logo after Goldwater's is delusional. But attacking someone for lovely political beliefs they had when they were in high school as if it reflects how they feel 50 odd years later is also pretty stupid.
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Jul 21, 2017 08:03
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Nevermind, I can shitpost better than I just did.
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Jul 21, 2017 08:04
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Saying she modeled her logo after Goldwater's is delusional. But attacking someone for lovely political beliefs they had when they were in high school as if it reflects how they feel 50 odd years later is also pretty stupid. Well, when said views are not that removed....I mean considering her supporting slavery.
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Jul 21, 2017 08:10
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Saying she modeled her logo after Goldwater's is delusional. But attacking someone for lovely political beliefs they had when they were in high school as if it reflects how they feel 50 odd years later is also pretty stupid. but neither are rightwing attacks, unless you think intimating someone's right wing is a right wing attack
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Jul 21, 2017 08:12
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Condiv posted:but neither are rightwing attacks, unless you think intimating someone's right wing is a right wing attack That's a good point, I stand corrected. It's an incredibly stupid attack but it's not a right wing one. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 08:17 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 08:13
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Ytlaya posted:As I said before, when they move to the left it is because of voter pressure. No. They move to the left because of political opportunity. They move to the RIGHT because of political pressure. Hence why refusing to vote for them because they aren't left enough is the most self defeating backwards idea possible. At a time when progressives were unelectable by any stretch of the imagination, pressure forced Dems to the right. Even with that shift, they still fought tooth and nail for healthcare, and again received substantial pressure with absolutely no support from the left (both times, 94 AND 2010). Had they received support and not had a Republican Congress limiting their options hugely, they would have governed differently. Unfortunately, that can only be a hypothetical because the left refuses to vote when needed. People don't join the Democrats because they hate people and love money. The Republican party exists for that. They have an inherent desire to move things left, but they also have to deal with the real world. If you can't get the votes for single payer, you need to get what you can. The left takes that as a betrayal, because people want to believe politics is easy.
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Jul 21, 2017 08:14
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Ah, according to Fulchrum the victory of right wing ideology is literally a historical inevitability and the end of history, but he accuses people of using Nazi rhetorics
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Jul 21, 2017 08:18
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I really need some neo-lib hack to write a lovely satire of Rensin's piece that posits leftists all have suppressed sadomasochist Oedipal complexes, which manifests in their constant obsession with discussing Hillary Clinton and slavery.
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Jul 21, 2017 08:20
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