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massive spider posted:This guys an attorney and has a good tweet thread about Trump pardoning himself The tweet thread went off the rails a bit. He's not pardoning himself, effectively or otherwise, by pardoning co-conspirators. He seems to think a pardon makes a crime no longer exist, but thats not right. A pardon means we can't indict, convict, or punish you for a crime, but it does not erase the fact that a crime occurred. Its legally the same as dying before we get a chance to prosecute, officially that corpse was never indicted or convicted of a crime, but the crime happened and we can still go after anyone else involved. It doesn't matter, Pence would pardon him anyway, the consequences for Trump have always been just political, not legal.
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Jul 21, 2017 14:59
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massive spider posted:This guys an attorney and has a good tweet thread about Trump pardoning himself I like how this guy just accepts, as if it were an axiom, that if Trump pardons himself and his family for Russian treason, the supreme Court and Congress will do something about it. Trump will just say "this was a distraction getting in the way of MAGA, so I got rid of the distraction" and his 36% will go along with it. sitting Presidents necessarily have the de facto power to self pardon because 1) they control all enforcement and can order investigations and prosecutions abandoned, and 2) as long as they're a sitting president the SC is not going to rule on the issue due to separation of powers / political question Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 15:00
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mcmagic posted:The only way he can turn Republicans in congress against him is to turn Republican voters against him. I don't think he can do that. If they think he's going to turn himself into a legit dictator (which is what being able to pardon himself means) won't they react out of self preservation? He's already demonstrated in ample ways that he doesn't give a poo poo about Republicans or the Congress.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:01
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Morrow posted:India and Bangladesh have some sort of enclaves-within-enclaves going on.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:02
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Charlz Guybon posted:If they think he's going to turn himself into a legit dictator (which is what being able to pardon himself means) won't they react out of self preservation? He's already demonstrated in ample ways that he doesn't give a poo poo about Republicans or the Congress. He will sign what they put in front of him.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:03
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Charlz Guybon posted:If they think he's going to turn himself into a legit dictator (which is what being able to pardon himself means) won't they react out of self preservation? He's already demonstrated in ample ways that he doesn't give a poo poo about Republicans or the Congress. The Republicans in Congress don't realize they're frogs, they think they're all on Team Scorpion.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:04
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Charlz Guybon posted:If they think he's going to turn himself into a legit dictator (which is what being able to pardon himself means) won't they react out of self preservation? He's already demonstrated in ample ways that he doesn't give a poo poo about Republicans or the Congress. He's not a dictator if he pardons himself, the supreme court says "sure, you can do that", and congress refuses to impeach. Impeachment is a political question, and Trump still has to face the voters in 2020, and if the people are mad about the decision not to impeach, then congress has to face the voters as well. Dictators either don't have to worry about elections or use military power to make the election a sham.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:04
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Yeah like I don't think any member of the GOP is going to do anything in the country's best interest but I don't think they are going to make Trump a legit dictator (as in allowing him to openly commit crimes then pardon himself indefinitely) for a guy that is pretty clearly just aching to start offing some allies in order to make a statement. Of course they are spineless so maybe they just let it happen and worry about their polonium sandwiches later but I would think even our idiotic SCOTUS would understand what that ruling would mean.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:05
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mcmagic posted:He will sign what they put in front of him. So will Pence. And if he's a dictator whose to say he will? Why not go with Bannon and his trillion dollar infrastructure plans and welfare plans for poor white people.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:06
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The Republicans in Congress don't realize they're frogs, they think they're all on Team Scorpion. This is a good way of putting it.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:07
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Rigel posted:He's not a dictator if he pardons himself, the supreme court says "sure, you can do that", and congress refuses to impeach. Impeachment is a political question, and Trump still has to face the voters in 2020, and if the people are mad about the decision not to impeach, then congress has to face the voters as well. Dictators either don't have to worry about elections or use military power to make the election a sham. He is absolutely a dictator if that happens, and there won't be fair elections in 2020.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:07
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No Butt Stuff posted:I hate the tweet string, but wouldn't pardoning his co-conspirators just make it so they had no choice but to testify against him? Can Trump not pardon contempt as well?
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Jul 21, 2017 15:08
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Rigel posted:He's not a dictator if he pardons himself, the supreme court says "sure, you can do that", and congress refuses to impeach. Impeachment is a political question, and Trump still has to face the voters in 2020, and if the people are mad about the decision not to impeach, then congress has to face the voters as well. Dictators either don't have to worry about elections or use military power to make the election a sham. His crimes pertain to doing stuff to win the election. If the argument is that you can freely commit crimes to win elections and so long as you win you can pardon yourself, then you do not have to worry about elections any more.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:08
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John Roberts might be an rear end in a top hat that hates minorities voting but I don't think he wants to go down in whatever history gets written that his court literally ended American democracy and installed an autocrat.Fangz posted:His crimes pertain to doing stuff to win the election. If the argument is that you can freely commit crimes to win elections and so long as you win you can pardon yourself, then you do not have to worry about elections any more. Pretty much. "We just grabbed all the voting machines and declared myself the winner; maybe I'll release how much I won by if I feel like it. I'm also pardoning myself for this right now so welp."
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Jul 21, 2017 15:09
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Rigel posted:He's not a dictator if he pardons himself, the supreme court says "sure, you can do that", and congress refuses to impeach. Impeachment is a political question, and Trump still has to face the voters in 2020, and if the people are mad about the decision not to impeach, then congress has to face the voters as well. Dictators either don't have to worry about elections or use military power to make the election a sham. If the ruling party uses its power to exempt its leadership from the legal process and to make it more difficult for the out party to ever take power again, that basically is a sham democracy/soft dictatorship. It doesn't mean they'll be willing to use military force to ensure their rule can never be challenged, but it's on the spectrum of a society where the rule of law breaks down.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:10
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They think they will control whatever history is written.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:10
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Especially when you add in all the voter suppression and gerrymandering etc.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:11
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Charlz Guybon posted:So will Pence. Yes but their base wants Trump to be President, not Pence.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:12
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Like "you can pardon yourself of the crime that got you the position you are using to absolve it" is so obviously broken on a tin pot dictator level that even if Trump doesn't abuse it such a ruling would be tantamount to destroying whatever faith anyone had left in the US government. Like that court would go down as literally the worst in whatever American history is left regardless of legal scholars trying to justify they simply had to rule that way.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:16
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Charlz Guybon posted:He is absolutely a dictator if that happens, and there won't be fair elections in 2020. They're already trying to game the 2020 elections. They try to stack the deck in their favor every election. But with the voter fraud panel it sounds like they want to go for a straight up mass voter purge nationwide.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:18
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https://twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/status/888402390327726080 I have no mouth but I must laugh
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Jul 21, 2017 15:19
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Radish posted:Like "you can pardon yourself of the crime that got you the position you are using to absolve it" is so obviously broken on a tin pot dictator level that even if Trump doesn't abuse it such a ruling would be tantamount to destroying whatever faith anyone had left in the US government. Like that court would go down as literally the worst in whatever American history is left regardless of legal scholars trying to justify they simply had to rule that way. That's why you pardon now, before the charges are spelled out, so you can claim you're just stopping a "partisan witch hunt".
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Jul 21, 2017 15:20
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You guys are acting like we should have won by 10 points. The election (as far as the electoral college, not NPV) was pretty much a tie. Its not clear that what Trump did had a significant effect. I get the argument, but the impact on the election was so negligible, that my level of caring is not going to rise to "he's a dictator now"
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Jul 21, 2017 15:20
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nerdz posted:A dude got elected in Brazil with the slogan "It can't possibly get any worse" Assuming you're referring to Tiririca, the thread deserves to know a couple of other facts: 1) He is a literal clown 2) He was suspected of being literally illiterate and was forced to make a basic literacy test to run. 3) His other slogan was "What does a Deputado Federal [his position, roughly equivalent to congressman I believe] do? I dunno but vote for me and then I'll let you know" Something something history repeats.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:21
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mcmagic posted:Yes but their base wants Trump to be President, not Pence. They care way more about their donors and their personal power than they do about the base.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:21
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farraday posted:https://twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/status/888402390327726080 At least one person is getting an august recess.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:23
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Rigel posted:You guys are acting like we should have won by 10 points. The election (as far as the electoral college, not NPV) was pretty much a tie. Its not clear that what Trump did had a significant effect. I get the argument, but the impact on the election was so negligible, that my level of caring is not going to rise to "he's a dictator now" Ehh, that we know of. The election was actually a huge blowout in Hillary's favor in popular vote terms and Trump only won by very narrow margins in very specific (but electorally critical) regions. I don't think we yet know the full story of Russian interference and I doubt we ever will. That said he's not a dictator as of this moment, no, but If These Trends Continue -- for example, when there is further Russian interference in 2018. . . .
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Jul 21, 2017 15:24
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farraday posted:https://twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/status/888402390327726080 The best part is how this comes right after McConnell cancelled his own recess
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Jul 21, 2017 15:24
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Rigel posted:You guys are acting like we should have won by 10 points. The election (as far as the electoral college, not NPV) was pretty much a tie. Its not clear that what Trump did had a significant effect. I get the argument, but the impact on the election was so negligible, that my level of caring is not going to rise to "he's a dictator now" Just because the impact may have been negligible in the last election, does not mean it would negligible in future elections. This power would absolve candidates of every crime up to and including assassination should they win the election. That is horrifying.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:25
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Fangz posted:They think they will control whatever history is written. This is one of the things the Republican voting base has been clamoring for for years now, yes.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:25
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Charlz Guybon posted:They care way more about their donors and their personal power than they do about the base. That isn't true. They are terrified of their base. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Ehh, that we know of. The election was actually a huge blowout in Hillary's favor in popular vote terms and Trump only won by very narrow margins in very specific (but electorally critical) regions. I don't think we yet know the full story of Russian interference and I doubt we ever will. Russia doesn't seem to be getting their money's worth. I wonder if they will be as heavily involved in 18 and 20.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:26
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-to-ban-tourist-visits-to-north-korea-travel-agencies-say-1500627560 Gasoline Clams! 
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Jul 21, 2017 15:28
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https://twitter.com/ryanstruyk/status/888397450498777094 LOL
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Jul 21, 2017 15:29
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You'd think the result would be opposite.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:30
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mcmagic posted:That isn't true. They are terrified of their base.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:31
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Morrow posted:India and Bangladesh have some sort of enclaves-within-enclaves going on. Worlds only counter-counter-enclave. A part of India is in a part of Bangladesh is in a part of India is in a part of Bangladesh
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Jul 21, 2017 15:31
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mcmagic posted:That isn't true. They are terrified of their base. The thing is that there will be open season on America's elections. What's to stop China or even the U.K. or Germany from blatantly trying to influence the election? There are countries with much more resources than Russia that have a bigger vested interest in America. If the US won't denfend itself, other countries may act to stop Russia.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:32
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Charlz Guybon posted:They just spent the last six months trying to pass a bill that would have devastated their base. If they gave two shits about them they would never have tried to pass that atrocity of a bill. You misunderstand what their base cares about. They care MUCH more about destroying the Black President's legacy and passing a bill that would upset Liberals than losing their health insurance.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:32
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So he's going on a near three week vacation after he's spent more than a month of his 6 month tenure golfing and after he's said that congress shouldn't take their August recess to keep working huh
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Jul 21, 2017 15:33
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Fulchrum posted:Worlds only counter-counter-enclave. A part of India is in a part of Bangladesh is in a part of India is in a part of Bangladesh They actually did land swaps a few years back and fixed those.
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