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Libluini posted:Now that I'm reflecting on this, yes. You could say the Second Apocalypse has some similarities to how the first one went, if you ignore like 80% of what is happening. (Of course, I may be unfair since I've already read the Unholy Consult.) The Consult really comes across as a bunch of blundering morons in the end. Also, given UC what is left of the Consult is basically the Dunyain and a shitload of Sranc they seem like less of a threat compared to the past . Of course, humanity have been basically drained of resources by The Great Ordeal so there is that plus that the presence of the NoGod means no reinforcements. Which reminds me of another thing, why didn't just the Consult wake the NoGod and wait for humanity to die off by natural causes instead of a crusade. I mean, they have been playing the long game from the start.
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Jul 8, 2017 18:03
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Cardiac posted:The Consult really comes across as a bunch of blundering morons in the end. Also, given UC what is left of the Consult is basically the Dunyain and a shitload of Sranc they seem like less of a threat compared to the past . Of course, humanity have been basically drained of resources by The Great Ordeal so there is that plus that the presence of the NoGod means no reinforcements. The Dunjain-leaders of the New Consult explain this: Back during ancient times, the Old Consult basically threw countless people into the sarcophagus, without any success. Only by pure accident did they luck out when they threw that Norsirai-prince who was related to both Seswatha and Kellhus into it. The Black Carapace connected, and the No-God suddenly came to life. This time, the new leaders knew that by waiting, the new "pilot" for the No-God would arrive on his own account. They plans then were messed up when Kellhus first invaded with a demon army, declared himself King of Hell, and started killing them. Then Kellhus son, the little poo poo, killed his father. The leaders of the New Consult then just had to throw that little monster into the Black Carapace, since they knew it would work as long as one of Kellhus' line was in there. So to answer your question, they couldn't wake the No-God without Kellhus or one of his children in it. And the best way to make the revival go off without a hitch was to just wait until Kellhus shows up, convince him to join their side, and presto: New No-God. The fact that the first Apocalypse only happened because of a lucky accident is one of the curveballs I was talking about. 
Libluini fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Jul 8, 2017 |
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Jul 8, 2017 18:18
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Libluini posted:The Dunjain-leaders of the New Consult explain this: Back during ancient times, the Old Consult basically threw countless people into the sarcophagus, without any success. Only by pure accident did they luck out when they threw that Norsirai-prince who was related to both Seswatha and Kellhus into it. The Black Carapace connected, and the No-God suddenly came to life. This time, the new leaders knew that by waiting, the new "pilot" for the No-God would arrive on his own account. One would think that simply just kidnapping one of the kids should be enough. As for Kellhus, there is a possibility he is not dead (hopefully though) since there is a description in the footnotes about when Kellhus started studying with Iyokus and a farmer came upon him alone in the woods where Kellhus was taking off his head and replacing it with the decapitants. Did we ever figure out what was the thing about Kellhus and the head on a pole?
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Jul 8, 2017 18:49
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Cardiac posted:One would think that simply just kidnapping one of the kids should be enough. You don't think enough like a Dunyain: Sure, they could have kidnapped one of his kids straightaway, but then they would have needed to fight the full might of Kellhus' empire anyway. And battles are messy things, you can never be 100% sure that you're the winner when the dust settles. From their viewpoint, waiting until Kellhus shows up personally makes more sense, since they must have assumed they could have suborned his entire empire in one fell swoop by taking him. Bonus points for luring and then crushing the might of his empire right at their doorsteps, thus making sure they can win regardless of the outcome of their little talk. And abducting his kids was always on the table anyway, as you can see by the Dunyain clearly having "Kill Kellhus" as their plan B. They probably wanted one of his other kids, though. They must have been surprised when a pesky little eight-year-old Anasurimbor showed up right in front of them. Bagging a little kid must have been like a godsend for them. No dealing with a strong, dangerous adult like Kellhus' other kids.
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Jul 8, 2017 19:04
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This page of black spoiler text has me erect with what it implies, brb readin' the book.  Edit: Just finished chapter 5 and this is like Junji Ito wrote a novel. 
Rime fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Jul 9, 2017 |
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Jul 8, 2017 23:46
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I'm feeling very dissatisfied with the way this has ended. The Great Ordeal introduced more questions than it answered, but they were interesting, exciting questions. Questions that made me think more about the story and philosophy of the books. After TUC, my questions are all some variant of "eh??" and "but what about......?"
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Jul 9, 2017 14:01
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Yeah, that was disappointing, mainly because there were elements that really worked and were genuinely interesting, and should have been developed earlier rather than saved for a twist at the end. Things that were good: -The Inverse Prophet gambit. Rather than a mortal bringing the wisdom of the gods to humanity, a mortal serving as the eye of the gods over portions of mankind they cannot reach. They had established that Kellhus had visited the Outside early on, in a lone paragraph and then basically forgotten about it. Turns out it was basically the key point of the whole second trilogy. -Serwa, Moenghus, and even Kayutas. They finally got a glimmer of development right at the end, and it was good reading about what it is like to have a -fraction- of absolute power, but be flawed in different ways. A half-dead Serwa on crack facing down a dragon and a phalanx of chorae-bearing elite Sranc was one of the high points of the series (Another was Cleric and Achamian doing the same. Dragons do make everything better). -The Consult being taken over by Dunyain prisoners. While it's also a bit of a letdown (These guys have been gathering power for 4-8 thousand years and still risked having these uber-guys around after seeing firsthand how a single one took over the Three Seas in three years?), it makes sense and brings different stakes: two rational visions of the Absolute, constructed by the instruments each side got once they left their isolation. Stuff that was Bad: -Bakker does these weird cuts in the action that just floor me. Sure, I want to read reams upon reams of randos of Randonia being killed in battle instead of the actual big characters doing the big things. Sure, I'd like to have actually read about how Serwa finally killed Skuthula after their running battle and back-and-forth taunting, but I guess cutting to King Steve of Corneria, famed for building King Steve's Kickass Bridge, being carved by a skinny so that his fabled heirloom lucky sock was lost to the ages, has way more pathos. - The repetition. At this point, it has to be on purpose. Bakker comes across as desperate to drive home just how perverted/obscene/hopeless his turning points are, so he goes on and on until they just feel tired and forced. See guys, the Ordeal is really hosed -this- time! They are doing poo poo that would make Slaanesh blush! Again and again! It's like A Serbian Film directed by Frank Miller here! Death never swirled down quite this bad before, but it's gonna swirl down even harder next chapter, I promise you! - Even dragons can't shut up about pussy and whores. A minor point at this juncture, but wryly amusing nonetheless. -Rocks fall, everyone dies. Over a couple of chapters it all goes pear-shaped and everyone is assumed killed, with some left vague so that they can come back later for pointless reveals like Cnaiur in this trilogy. Stuff that confused me: (BIG SPOILERS below) -What was the point of Sorweel? Introduced early in the second trilogy, given a perfect cover by the gods and means to kill the Aspect-emperor, sent into the last Nonmen mansion and coming back, being a pile of conflicts and doubts...killed almost offscreen by a psycho kid who was there for the family picture. At least he got to bang some humanity back into his hot crush and fool around with his best friend, I guess. not that anything came out of that, either. The Emperor gets killed by a random skinchanger because he got -distracted-. -Why were the gods so keen to fight Kellhus if he'd been to their home and promised them to deliver the Consult? Sending the White-Luck Warrior, destroying Momemn, having Yatwer make common cause with heathens....and in the end he is a willing vessel for them to reach the unreachable? Am I missing something here? -If the Consult only needed an Anasurimbor to bring back the no-god, shouldn't they had won the instant Kellhus delivered Serwa to the corrupt Nonmen? Toss her in the casket, game over. -So the No-god appeared before the Ordeal and Mimara as Kellhus just to troll them? And then just let them amble away to be swarmed by another Horde? And then Cnaiur basically turns into an avatar of the murder god for...reasons? For all of its metaphysics, Bakker sucks at defining how the supernatural of his setting works. Not the gears and bolts, gently caress no, he'll go on about meanings and abstractions for pages, but how they relate to each other. What gods hate each other? Are demons their servants meant to torture the wicked or their enemies? Do they even care about their priesthoods? Doesn't the god of fertility have any issue with the crazy fuckers who, you know, made every womb a grave for over a decade? Sephyr fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 17:36
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goddamn me for thinking spoilers were no big deal. I didn't see any of that poo poo coming.
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Jul 11, 2017 00:23
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Ugh. I'm really sorry, man. It's just that none of my friends read this series so there was a lot to tlk about and no one to discuss it with, so I brought it here.
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Jul 11, 2017 02:43
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Sephyr posted:Ugh. I'm really sorry, man. It's just that none of my friends read this series so there was a lot to tlk about and no one to discuss it with, so I brought it here. Yeah, considering that the book have just been released, treating everything blackened out as an actual spoiler is the way to go.
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Jul 11, 2017 12:27
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The Ninth Layer posted:I haven't finished it yet, but I was under the impression that TUC was wrapping up this story arc but wasn't ever planned as the final book of the series. As far as I know from Bakker's blog, this completes the cycle he had in mind since the beginning. The final duology is something that I think was conceived later.
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Jul 11, 2017 23:32
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Hoooooooooooooooly loving poo poo. I haven't had that many flip-turn-upside-down completely unforseen twists in a novel since Use of Weapons.   .DON'T CLICK THESE SPOILERS!!!!! Most certainly the second decapatant is Kellhus. How he gets a physical form again will be a good deus ex machina. possibly literally. But to go deeper Finding out that this entire 6+ book series has been an elaborate fanfiction for Aliens is pretty LOL. Did not expect to discover the Inchoroi were engineered sranc-esque shock troopers who were following the instructions of an AI up until the ship crashed and aren't really capable of anything fancy. Thinking Mog-Pharau was a helicopter seems almost quaint now. And speaking of that... I think I've asked this before, but is there any reference to humans being present in Earwa before the ark crashes? Now that we know the Inchoroi didn't build it and were not the masters, it leaves the question of who did and who is. We've seen, twice now, groups of humans gain absolute control over the ruins there, and the sarcophagus of Mog-Pharau is clearly seeking something unique in humans. A genetic key? Either way, there's a commentary on religious dogma and telephone here which is great. All we have to go on concerning the actual purpose of the carapace is the word of some semi-lobotomized weapons who've been stranded here for ten thousand years and worship a furnace. Really reliable sources on how to avoid damnation! The appendices are jammed with tasty tidbits which hijt just enough to entice but not to give anything away. Spending half the book discussing depravity was pretty blah. Had no shock value, seemed camp even. didn't carry nearly the same weight as Caraskand did, of the deathmatch Erikson wrote in Deadhouse Gates. Maybe I am just old and jaded, but it really just felt flat. I need time to recover, gather my thoughts, good thing the last two books are probably like a decade off if they even get published. I can't say I would be sad if this is where it ends forever, either. This whole series has been great at pissing on genre conventions, and a simple "the gambit failed and the world ends, gently caress you" would be much better than aping GRRM. Rime fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 06:46
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Sephyr posted:Ugh. I'm really sorry, man. It's just that none of my friends read this series so there was a lot to tlk about and no one to discuss it with, so I brought it here. nah no worry man, no one's fault but my own  I don't have the book yet and was trying to get a bit of idea of what happened! I usually don't really care about spoilers because it is rare that things go in such a completely crazy direction, but .. well.. yeah. can't wait to get the books.
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Jul 12, 2017 07:16
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Rime posted:I think I've asked this before, but is there any reference to humans being present in Earwa before the ark crashes? Now that we know the Inchoroi didn't build it and were not the masters, it leaves the question of who did and who is. We've seen, twice now, groups of humans gain absolute control over the ruins there, and the sarcophagus of Mog-Pharau is clearly seeking something unique in humans. A genetic key? There were tons of references to humans in Earwa before the ark. Essentially, humans roamed (and probably still roam) the wilderness far to the east of the huge mountains making up the eastern border of Earwa. The Nonmen raided those tribes to get slaves. The Nonmen then basically bred them to be their pets -the human slaves the protagonists meet in The Great Ordeal are basically proto-human, since their intelligence has been bred out of them until they were barely human anymore. There's also references to a great shaman being born in the far east, uniting the human tribes and invading the Nonman-mansions at the border after the war against the Inchoroi seemed to be over, and all of the aliens were believed to be dead by the Nonmen. All the modern humans in the setting are descendants of those invaders, while the original humans all either perished, or faced a fate worse then death in the surviving Nonman-mansions.
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Jul 12, 2017 11:37
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Libluini posted:There were tons of references to humans in Earwa before the ark. Essentially, humans roamed (and probably still roam) the wilderness far to the east of the huge mountains making up the eastern border of Earwa. The Nonmen raided those tribes to get slaves. The Nonmen then basically bred them to be their pets -the human slaves the protagonists meet in The Great Ordeal are basically proto-human, since their intelligence has been bred out of them until they were barely human anymore. The inchoroi of the books are not the pilots of the ark, they were altered to their current form. The implication is that they were as human as the rest of us, but altered to beat the nonmen. The other question being, "Which Humans?" I said it previously, Bakker created these metaphysics then spent his energies/narative disproving them. It can only be resolved via an unreliable nonarrator. perhaps
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Jul 12, 2017 20:15
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Collateral posted:The inchoroi of the books are not the pilots of the ark, they were altered to their current form. The implication is that they were as human as the rest of us, but altered to beat the nonmen. The other question being, "Which Humans?"
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Jul 12, 2017 21:27
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Chapter (18?) makes it pretty clear that the Inchoroi were the cargo and under the command of a higher power until the crash occurred and destroyed most of the ark, at which point Sil took power by controlling access to the inverse flame that they jerk off to or w/e. The Ark is like a big goddamn derelict from Alien, except the xenomorphs are sentient, kinda, and we haven't found the space jockey yet.
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Jul 12, 2017 22:25
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The glossary for this book is intriguing for the tidbits its dropping, I'm starting to wonder if Bakker is going to go full Matrix on us. Lots of hinted references to "system interfaces" and stuff. Unanswered questions here are making GRRM look tame, goddamn.
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Jul 14, 2017 00:29
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Still waiting on the 25th :cnaiur:
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Jul 14, 2017 03:11
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Collateral posted:The inchoroi of the books are not the pilots of the ark, they were altered to their current form. The implication is that they were as human as the rest of us, but altered to beat the nonmen. The other question being, "Which Humans?" Like Ani and Rime said, you are completely wrong with this. Funnily enough though, this means you don't need to spoiler your spoiler!
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Jul 14, 2017 10:02
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Libluini posted:Like Ani and Rime said, you are completely wrong with this. Funnily enough though, this means you don't need to spoiler your spoiler! I didn't spoiler it?? Aurang and Aurax were altered, I assume this meant changing their appearance (is there an actual description of Inchoroi other than them?) as well as giving them the ability to use sorcery.
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Jul 14, 2017 17:10
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Collateral posted:I didn't spoiler it?? 
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Jul 14, 2017 18:03
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Reading the appendice I came across this entry "Angeshrael (? - ?)-- The most famed Old Prophet of the Tusk, responsible for leading the Five Tribes of Men into Earwa. Also known as Burnt Prophet for bowing his face into his fire after confronting Husyelt at the foot of Mount Eshki. His wife was Esmenet." This makes me think Kellhus will live again since so many other things seem to be repeating themselves. And you know his current status as a burnt statue of salt.
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Jul 14, 2017 18:51
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shirunei posted:Reading the appendice I came across this entry Also the subject of Kellhus' Sermon on the Mount back in TWP, and probably the greatest example of how the Earwan gods are a bunch of dickheads.
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Jul 14, 2017 19:10
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How come this book felt rushed?
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Jul 14, 2017 19:17
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papa horny michael posted:How come this book felt rushed? I think Bakker spent 30 years writing the first trilogy and cranked out the second in just under a decade, with a couple of years spent on TUC, which definitely lead to this last novel feeling pretty "light" on the detail. I wonder how much the behind-the-scenes shitshow over publication had to do with it, and how much is because Bakker originally planned to end the series here on the ultimate "gently caress you guys,  " note of the world ending in apocalypse; but is now putting out another two novels to tie things up further.
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Jul 19, 2017 18:49
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I haven't finished it yet but I think he always had the third one planned, at least by the time The Judging Eye came out. He said the name of the third trilogy would be a spoiler.
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Jul 19, 2017 18:52
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At this point, I'm just hoping we get an end someday. I really don't want him to go  actually, have another trilogy for the real real ending when his "last" book is finished.I know things change, but when a second trilogy suddenly turns into a quintology, followed by the author announcing several more books after that, I get flashbacks to A Song of Ice and Fire. Someone should tell those dumbass authors it's not forbidden to put an end somewhere. I mean I vividly remember reading multi-books series with some good endings in the individual books themselves, so why do I feel like every modern author is addicted to cliffhangers now?
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Jul 19, 2017 18:57
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This book just makes so many of the plot threads seem extraneous. Even the ending makes the two final big twists feel extraneous. I dunno if it's simply a case of the time Bakker spent writing PON, or if he had a better editor.
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Jul 19, 2017 19:06
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Given the shitshow with the publisher I wonder if there was an editor involved at all, tbqh.
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Jul 19, 2017 20:08
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Rime posted:Given the shitshow with the publisher I wonder if there was an editor involved at all, tbqh. The books is riddled with typos, I'm gonna say no.
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Jul 19, 2017 20:30
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Yeah, I felt a completely glaring lack of an editor there. The prose was way over the top, tons of stuff going on that didnt need to happen at all. Sad, really.
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Jul 20, 2017 00:04
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Libluini posted:At this point, I'm just hoping we get an end someday. I really don't want him to go Why do things have to end? Just enjoy the ride.
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Jul 20, 2017 04:29
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Relevant Tangent posted:Why do things have to end? Just enjoy the ride. Even sex starts to cramp and ache if it never ends. The conclusion makes the whole journey whole.
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Jul 20, 2017 05:03
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Sephyr posted:Even sex starts to cramp and ache if it never ends. The conclusion makes the hole in the ground journey whole.
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Jul 20, 2017 05:48
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I was sorely tempted to change the title to Better Than loving a Hole in a Corpse but I think our current one is a better representation of the series as a whole.
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Jul 20, 2017 05:57
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Has Bakker really considered the whole problem of holes? How did Kellhus stick it in Proyas so easily? Was his rear end in a top hat prepared by careful manipulations? Dilated and stretched through the mysteries of the Thousandfold Thought? Does the Aspect-Emperor gently caress a conditioned butt? I need to know, R Scott
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Jul 21, 2017 16:50
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General Battuta posted:Has Bakker really considered the whole problem of holes? How did Kellhus stick it in Proyas so easily? Was his rear end in a top hat prepared by careful manipulations? Dilated and stretched through the mysteries of the Thousandfold Thought? Does the Aspect-Emperor gently caress a conditioned butt? I need to know, R Scott https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWMGd_rzRdY
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Jul 21, 2017 17:47
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General Battuta posted:Has Bakker really considered the whole problem of holes? How did Kellhus stick it in Proyas so easily? Was his rear end in a top hat prepared by careful manipulations? Dilated and stretched through the mysteries of the Thousandfold Thought? Does the Aspect-Emperor gently caress a conditioned butt? I need to know, R Scott
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Jul 21, 2017 18:59
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I am glad that there is black demon seed action in the first book, I thought I might have to read another one to get to it.
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Jul 21, 2017 23:51
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