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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Something else to keep in mind is that in an advanced society that more equitably shares wealth, even if you're stuck with working a boring or unpleasant job, you wouldn't necessarily have to put in forty hours a week doing it. If you spread out the work across enough people it could wind up being one or two days a week, maybe even for less than eight hours a day. It could also be something you'd only do for a couple of years instead of for decades. I'm starting to think the Jetsons are linked to the Star Trek universe "I tell ya Rosey, they got me pushing that button up to 20 times a day..." "With that kind of work ethic you could join Starfleet Mister J." "Those kooks that fly those death machines? No thank you!" vermin fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 17:27
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I think that most Federation civilians probably spend several years trying out entry-level jobs in a whole variety of fields. Just like today, some people would know exactly what they want to do with their lives as soon as they got out of high school, but most probably don't, and if most young people spent a couple years doing risk-free apprenticeships with no particular expectation of staying on at a job beyond a few months unless it really resonated with them, that'd go a ways towards solving the problem of "who does all the low-skill jobs in the Federation." Hell, some people may float between entry-level jobs their whole lives because they just love the variety.
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Jul 21, 2017 17:33
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Something else to keep in mind is that in an advanced society that more equitably shares wealth, even if you're stuck with working a boring or unpleasant job, you wouldn't necessarily have to put in forty hours a week doing it. If you spread out the work across enough people it could wind up being one or two days a week, maybe even for less than eight hours a day. It could also be something you'd only do for a couple of years instead of for decades. Of course, and I wish I lived in such a society. I firmly believe that is possible then now, but the federation is apparently even more free. Saying trash can be beamed away doesn't explain who runs the transporter. It all only makes sense of there is a prodigious amount of total automation, which I'll admit is certainly possible but never even really hinted at beyond "the ship can clean itself"
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Jul 21, 2017 17:40
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The Bloop posted:Of course, and I wish I lived in such a society. I firmly believe that is possible then now, but the federation is apparently even more free. There are plenty of people today who volunteer for various trash removal projects. When you might only have to work one day a week, maybe even as just a second job because you want variety and to be outdoors, I can imagine it's something people would do. I personally don't understand people who would choose to be bureaucrats without compensation, but maybe desk jobs are all automated as well.
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Jul 21, 2017 17:46
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Much like washing machines, ovens and microwaves, the appliances of the future probably make the mundane work of the household incredibly easier. Does also make me wonder what it's like for other civilisations. I've theorised before that the Klingons get away with their feudal society because the average quality of life or at least the technology to give it is comparable to the Fedaration; people will put up with a repressive society if their everyday lives are comfortable. The Dominion seems especially implied to keep its subject races in line through entertainment and a comfortable quality of life. (Still wondering if the Tosk are prototype Jem'Hadar) The Ferengi even seem to play capitalism more as a game than the life-and-death scenario it is for us; the level of resources and technology required for a galactic civilisation perhaps leaves a lot more breathing room for societies organised around impractical principles.
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Jul 21, 2017 17:50
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Pakled posted:I think that most Federation civilians probably spend several years trying out entry-level jobs in a whole variety of fields. Good point. Also, some people will still take jobs they don't necessarily love or want as stepping stones to the ones they do, which brings us back to my favourite Voyager crewman, Mortimer Harren, who joined up even though he thought manned space exploration was stupid and Starfleet was pointless, because he needed a year of fieldwork in space to be eligible to apply to the Institute of Cosmology.
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Jul 21, 2017 17:50
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One year in waste extraction, six months in the clothing reconstituter, two weeks scraping holodecks, and you get the chance to play with warp coils
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Jul 21, 2017 17:53
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Not to mention prestige and reputation would still be a scarce resource. People would be motivated for that alone (hell, look at leaderboard rankings for video games!)
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Jul 21, 2017 17:55
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Need an episode in which Miles O'Brien is recruited into the autonomous and officially-nonexistent Section 32 that does the Federation's dirty work: scrubbing toilets and assembling replicators by hand.
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Jul 21, 2017 17:56
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Hey now, O'Brien may be the Federation's bitchboy, but at least he's not Rom. Rom before he got made Grand Nagus anyway. Hell, there's a whole episode where Rom turns out to be a better engineer than O'Brien.
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Jul 21, 2017 17:58
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All starships have a crew of toilet scrubbers and people who put stuff into the "replicators" when commanded, the crew has just been psychologically conditioned not to notice them like slaves in antiquity.
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Jul 21, 2017 18:05
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Pakled posted:I think that most Federation civilians probably spend several years trying out entry-level jobs in a whole variety of fields. Just like today, some people would know exactly what they want to do with their lives as soon as they got out of high school, but most probably don't, and if most young people spent a couple years doing risk-free apprenticeships with no particular expectation of staying on at a job beyond a few months unless it really resonated with them, that'd go a ways towards solving the problem of "who does all the low-skill jobs in the Federation." Hell, some people may float between entry-level jobs their whole lives because they just love the variety. They actually touch on this a little with Bashir's dad in DS9. His inability to commit to a single career path he wants to excel at is the Federation social equivalent of being lower class, and they outright state that the drive to strive to better oneself and be perceived as excelling at your chosen career path has replaced money and traditional class society. So someone like Sisko's dad, who's a cook who genuinely loves his work and strives to offer the best food he can, is in contrast to Bashir's dad greatly respected in the community. This also explains why students at the Academy look up to Boothby.
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Jul 21, 2017 18:13
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Inescapable Duck posted:The Ferengi even seem to play capitalism more as a game than the life-and-death scenario it is for us; the level of resources and technology required for a galactic civilisation perhaps leaves a lot more breathing room for societies organised around impractical principles. I dunno, I think we have quite a few examples of real-life capitalists who treat it more or less like a game, as well as those who go around exhorting impractical principles, e.g. that guy who took over Sears and ran the company into the ground because he felt the various company divisions should all be at each other's throats at all times.
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Jul 21, 2017 18:23
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http://www.startrek.com/article/star-trek-discovery-gallery-opens-at-comic-con More Discovery designs. I love all the Fed stuff and even some Klingon props. The rest though... eh.
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Jul 21, 2017 18:23
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Frionnel posted:http://www.startrek.com/article/star-trek-discovery-gallery-opens-at-comic-con It all looks like raid boss drops from a Korean MMORPG.
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Jul 21, 2017 18:26
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Little bit cringeworthy that the Klingon concept art is described as being "Islamic" themed. I mean really?
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Jul 21, 2017 18:43
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I stand corrected. Presumably nobody on-set narked and if anyone from the studio asked, of course he was wearing a posing pouch and body makeup, everything by the book. As stupid as it sounds, I've heard of actors being fired for less than that. There was a time in Hollywood when actors could terrorize actresses by jumping out at them naked for the hilarious reaction shot, but by the 80s that kind of thing was a 7-figure harassment lawsuit waiting to happen and the studios were CYA zero tolerance.
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Jul 21, 2017 18:50
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Chris Pratt did it to Amy Poehler and they put it in the Parks & Rec season 2 blooper reel.
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Jul 21, 2017 18:52
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shadok posted:I stand corrected. Presumably nobody on-set narked and if anyone from the studio asked, of course he was wearing a posing pouch and body makeup, everything by the book. As stupid as it sounds, I've heard of actors being fired for less than that. There was a time in Hollywood when actors could terrorize actresses by jumping out at them naked for the hilarious reaction shot, but by the 80s that kind of thing was a 7-figure harassment lawsuit waiting to happen and the studios were CYA zero tolerance. I assume everyone basically was on the same page of "Let's just get this poo poo done, Thanksgiving is two days away and I wanna go on vacation, please no one bitch to the union that you saw a donger." It's clear he wasn't doing it to be all "LOOK AT MY DICK!" though that would have been pretty funny too.
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Jul 21, 2017 18:54
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skasion posted:Little bit cringeworthy that the Klingon concept art is described as being "Islamic" themed. I mean really? They're inherently aggressive warlike space Muslims with scimitars and Kahless is Muhammed/the Mahdi, I think is what they are seriously trying to go for.
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Jul 21, 2017 18:56
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CPColin posted:Chris Pratt did it to Amy Poehler and they put it in the Parks & Rec season 2 blooper reel. He also got a letter from NBC's lawyers that said "we seriously considered firing you and if you do it again you're gone". Which he has framed in his home.
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Jul 21, 2017 19:02
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skasion posted:Little bit cringeworthy that the Klingon concept art is described as being "Islamic" themed. I mean really? Pretty sure that's just an art term for that kind of pattern, sort of like "Aztecing."
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Jul 21, 2017 19:06
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Duckbag posted:Pretty sure that's just an art term for that kind of pattern, sort of like "Aztecing." I really hope it's this and not Shibawanko posted:They're inherently aggressive warlike space Muslims with scimitars and Kahless is Muhammed/the Mahdi, I think is what they are seriously trying to go for. But Enterprise has destroyed my faith
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Jul 21, 2017 19:10
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Yeah, it's just a term for a style of tiling geometric patterns that developed within Islamic art due to an avoidance of figurative representation. It's fine, and it looks beautiful.
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Jul 21, 2017 19:18
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shadok posted:Recent studies and pilot projects testing Universal Basic Income show that as well as acting as a direct economic stimulus to the community, it tends to increase entrepreneurship while improving quality of life. I think you can probably measure how likely you think a Trek technology post-scarcity world would be a social utopia by your modern political outlook. A European socialist is likely to see something like TNG utopia, while an American Republican will picture Planet of the Welfare Queens. I'm not anywhere close to a Republican or a "gently caress you, got mine" Libertarian. But at the same time, I just think that the idea that UBI is going to be a fix-all for society is naive. I'm skeptical that it's going to produce the "perfect" society of TNG, and I'm suspicious of a "perfect" society anyway. To answer Mike The TV, yes, it would be great to have the time to pursue whatever hobby I wanted...for a while. Eventually, I think it'd be a bit like breaks between semesters of school: for a day or two, it's great not to have to worry about school work. But then boredom sets in, because life slows down so much that you lose motivation to do all the things you wanted to catch up on while in class. A lot of people in Star Trek society would probably pursue their favorite hobby, but wouldn't many more just stagnate, since there was no reason to do anything?
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Jul 21, 2017 19:22
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Can't wait for them to blow those connections and do an emergency saucer separation leaving just the bridge and the drive section.
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Jul 21, 2017 19:26
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shadok posted:He also got a letter from NBC's lawyers that said "we seriously considered firing you and if you do it again you're gone". Which he has framed in his home. "P.S., lol yeah put it in the blooper reel"
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Jul 21, 2017 19:27
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Jul 21, 2017 19:28
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CPColin posted:"P.S., lol yeah put it in the blooper reel" I thought that was the take they ended up using? At least that's what I remember him saying in the interview.
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Jul 21, 2017 19:30
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:I'm not anywhere close to a Republican or a "gently caress you, got mine" Libertarian. But at the same time, I just think that the idea that UBI is going to be a fix-all for society is naive. I'm skeptical that it's going to produce the "perfect" society of TNG, and I'm suspicious of a "perfect" society anyway. It's true that UBI is not a magical bullet that would solve all of society's ills, however If you think that in a world like Star Trek there would be "no reason" to "do anything" then you're one of the aforementioned people that burned to death in the nuclear hellfire that cleansed the world before the Vulcans landed and uplifted the survivors
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Jul 21, 2017 19:40
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UBI plus, you know, replicators and transporters is a lot more of a magic bullet though
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Jul 21, 2017 19:50
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Tighclops posted:It's true that UBI is not a magical bullet that would solve all of society's ills, however Oh my god. Star Trek is the universe where Posadas was right.
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Jul 21, 2017 19:51
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Shibawanko posted:They're inherently aggressive warlike space Muslims with scimitars and Kahless is Muhammed/the Mahdi, I think is what they are seriously trying to go for. I'd bet in the upcoming Dune movie, House Atreides isn't white so it doesn't come across with a weird racial message on top of all the religious themes
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Jul 21, 2017 19:54
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MikeJF posted:UBI plus, you know, replicators and transporters is a lot more of a magic bullet though Is it, though? Are 23rd and 24th century humans good because of the technology they use, or because they've put in the work it takes to become more enlightened?
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Jul 21, 2017 20:04
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Clearly in the distant future people will just spend their time playing football. https://www.sbnation.com/a/17776-football/
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Jul 21, 2017 20:06
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The Bloop posted:Can't wait for them to blow those connections and do an emergency saucer separation leaving just the bridge and the drive section. Shaka, when the walls fell.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:23
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Shibawanko posted:Shaka, when the walls fell. The Tamarians also use this to describe erectile dysfunction
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Jul 21, 2017 20:32
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:A lot of people in Star Trek society would probably pursue their favorite hobby, but wouldn't many more just stagnate, since there was no reason to do anything? The most charitable interpretation of Star Trek's economy is that it's purely post-scarcity on an individual level, so that all the things that a normal person would need or want are so valueless that it no longer makes sense to assign economic value to them. That means that a person in the Federation doesn't have to worry about clothing, food, shelter, entertainment, etc., but it's ridiculous to extrapolate from this that people having no reason to do things. It's completely reasonable to say that a society can attach enough cultural value to (for example) being a scientist that people pursue it despite there being no material rewards for doing so. Hell, it's true in real life since most people who go into pure research could almost certainly being make more money doing almost anything else. There's really no good evidence that most people see money as a primary motivator, and there's actually data suggesting that it's a poor motivator beyond guaranteeing a basic quality of life.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:33
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CPColin posted:Chris Pratt did it to Amy Poehler and they put it in the Parks & Rec season 2 blooper reel. Jerry Doyle was such a weird creeper that his way of hitting on Andrea Thompson on the Babylon 5 sets would be to wait in the elevator for her character to walk in. The doors would open and he'd be standing there naked from the waist down. He did it so often they actually worked it into an episode.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:07
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:First, I really love reading your posts as you're watching these episodes. One of my friends re-watched TNG for the first time in well over a decade last year, and I had a huge amount of fun watching episodes with her and chatting about the episodes. That didn't occur to me, but I did notice the symmetry in shots between the last moment in the correct timeline and the first moment where it's back, and also how they put Yar in the exact same spot as Worf in the frame. And I already mentioned this but the change in lighting is such good storytelling. It not only shows that the tone of the bad timeline is figuratively darker, but it's also perfectly justified in-universe. When they say they're saving power on the food replicators it implies they'd also want to save power on every non-essential function like lighting. And the light is getting scarcer just like their hopes are in the war. It's art.
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