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Rime posted:Prince of Nothing isn't like any other fantasy series running today: it's extremely well-written, full of vibrant and interesting characters, and it just feels like a more complete, 'real' world than just about anything else. No, no, no, and no.
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Jul 21, 2017 23:53
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:No, no, no, and no. You're right, Rothfus is such better world builder. 
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Jul 22, 2017 00:10
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Hmm. Needs qualification. -"it's extremely well-written," True, except when it isn't. - "full of vibrant and interesting characters," Very much true! It then proceeds to use most them very poorly. - "and it just feels like a more complete, 'real' world than just about anything else." Ehh. Up until The Warrior-Prophet, I'd agree. After that, not so much.
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Jul 22, 2017 00:28
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Rime posted:You're right, Rothfus is such better world builder. "World-building" is a moronic cargo cult concept. A milieu is only as interesting as how it's presented, in prose, verse, etc. Bakker's prose is unremarkable at best, except for the immediate prologue which is unrepresentative of the whole book, so his "world-building" is correspondingly worth nothing.
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Jul 22, 2017 10:04
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:"World-building" is a moronic cargo cult concept. A milieu is only as interesting as how it's presented, in prose, verse, etc. Well you're in a thread of people who kind of like the milieu, so good luck convincing people of that.
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Jul 22, 2017 12:57
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Rime posted:I was sorely tempted to change the title to Better Than loving a Hole in a Corpse but I think our current one is a better representation of the series as a whole. Do not. This is a phrase you can say to your grandfather who thinks you're gay and so holds you at arm's length, and you'll get an involuntary chuckle.
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Jul 22, 2017 14:21
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:"World-building" is a moronic cargo cult concept. A milieu is only as interesting as how it's presented, in prose, verse, etc. I think his prose is actually really good and gets better as you go through the books. He has a poetic descriptive style that I never get bored of: The False Sun posted:The attendant reappeared, pale, eyes anxious unto rolling. A raggish shadow lurched beyond the threshold behind him, a movement that would have been limping were it not balanced leg for leg. At the last instant Shaeönanra turned to watch the mighty Titirga’s face… If not world-building, what do you call the sweeping grandeur and richness of history of (for example) the world that Tolkien describes? It's certainly more interesting and compelling than the  "world building" of someone like Rothfuss, whose contempt for thinking through anything beyond the immediate scene means he does not build an actual world at all.
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Jul 22, 2017 14:54
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Boing posted:I think his prose is actually really good and gets better as you go through the books. He has a poetic descriptive style that I never get bored of: That excerpt is ridiculous, and merely another example of the repetitive, tiresome doom and dread that already wore thin in the first few chapters of The Darkness That Comes Before. The chopped sentences are almost macabre as the atrocities Bakker describes. Boing posted:If not world-building, what do you call the sweeping grandeur and richness of history of (for example) the world that Tolkien describes? It's certainly more interesting and compelling than the You're using Tolkien as an example to be followed? Come now, be serious 
BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Jul 22, 2017 |
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Jul 22, 2017 16:56
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I think his prose gets worse as the books go on (with the descent into the mansion in TGO being particularly egregious) and his favorite words get a stupid amount of play. But he's really good at implying Gigeresque monstrosity and appalling deep history, and if lamps is sick of the doom and dread I never get tired of the First Apocalypse dreams and anything to do with Golgotterath. I guess he's also got an interesting take on narrating set piece battles. Very Homeric, or, possibly, Rome Total War
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Jul 22, 2017 17:07
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I don't know when he started hyphen-doubling words (yes-yes) for a sort of babytalk effect but it drives me nuts.
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Jul 22, 2017 17:08
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General Battuta posted:I don't know when he started hyphen-doubling words (yes-yes) for a sort of babytalk effect but it drives me nuts. Maybe he is an agent for the Council of Thirteen?
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Jul 22, 2017 17:20
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don't you ever get bored of your own shtick? I know other people do, and I don't even think I regularly read any threads you post in. General Battuta posted:I don't know when he started hyphen-doubling words (yes-yes) for a sort of babytalk effect but it drives me nuts. This poo poo can gently caress right off though. Every time I see an author do something like this, I wonder whether they actually like how it reads, or if they just feel like they have no other way to convey that way of speaking.
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Jul 22, 2017 18:07
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Sitting Here posted:don't you ever get bored of your own shtick? I know other people do, and I don't even think I regularly read any threads you post in. What do you think about Bakker's prose?
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Jul 22, 2017 19:25
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:That excerpt is ridiculous, and merely another of the repetitive, tiresome doom and dread that already wore thin in the first few chapters of The Darkness That Comes Before. The chopped sentences are almost macabre as the atrocities Bakker describes. No, no, no, and no.
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Jul 22, 2017 19:26
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General Battuta posted:I think his prose gets worse as the books go on (with the descent into the mansion in TGO being particularly egregious) and his favorite words get a stupid amount of play. But he's really good at implying Gigeresque monstrosity and appalling deep history, and if lamps is sick of the doom and dread I never get tired of the First Apocalypse dreams and anything to do with Golgotterath. On the topic of Giger - Alien: Covenant is a godawful mess, but the scenes of the Engineer city getting obliterated by xenomorph-goo was Bakker as gently caress. Strom Cuzewon fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Jul 22, 2017 |
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Jul 22, 2017 19:46
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:What do you think about Bakker's prose? His prose is to my taste (I like a lot of things, though). At times it comes off as cumbersome, but the tradeoff is some fun or interesting turns of phrase. I appreciate that he committed to a style, to varying degrees of success. I think the biggest point in favor of the writing style is how it captures the sense of age and decay in the world of the second apocalypse. And, honestly, there are a bunch of moments in the series where the prose does back off in favor of letting the characters' emotional state shine through (I'm thinking of Esmenet/Achamian angst here, though I have no idea if you read that far or even care). I was actually surprised a couple times when I realized I was emotionally invested in the characters, but it was a nice surprise that enhanced my reading experience. That said, I can see how it wouldn't be to everyone's taste. Like literally everything else.
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Jul 22, 2017 20:04
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Sitting Here posted:His prose is to my taste (I like a lot of things, though). At times it comes off as cumbersome, but the tradeoff is some fun or interesting turns of phrase. I appreciate that he committed to a style, to varying degrees of success. I think the biggest point in favor of the writing style is how it captures the sense of age and decay in the world of the second apocalypse. And, honestly, there are a bunch of moments in the series where the prose does back off in favor of letting the characters' emotional state shine through (I'm thinking of Esmenet/Achamian angst here, though I have no idea if you read that far or even care). I was actually surprised a couple times when I realized I was emotionally invested in the characters, but it was a nice surprise that enhanced my reading experience. - there are turns of phrase - Bakker has a style - characters express emotion - there are characters So nothing, really.
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Jul 22, 2017 20:38
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:- there are turns of phrase that is certainly a list of obtuse statements you made, yes
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Jul 22, 2017 20:43
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hey WRONGTHINKERS, prove to me that your personal taste is correct 
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Jul 22, 2017 20:54
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I expected you to actually describe Bakker's prose, but you simply defaulted to banalities. An accurate judgement of Bakker's prose is that he is good at inducing creeping dread, until you realise there is absolutely nothing else to his writing and the creeping dread stands out as merely a cheap trick.
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Jul 22, 2017 21:17
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*in BravestOfTheLamps voice* You make a good point but have you considered that your opinion is wrong and mine is right
Boing fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Jul 22, 2017 |
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Jul 22, 2017 21:30
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I expected you to actually describe Bakker's prose, but you simply defaulted to banalities. No, that is an opinion. Which belongs to you. It's not an "accurate judgment". I think your brain is broken. You seem to be unable to distinguish between your personal opinion and indisputable fact. Anyway, the way Bakker uses his words is fine for me and lots of other people. I like the way he builds up the imagery. I like the sense of scale and age I get from the writing. I like the biblical scale of the battles, in spite of the repetition of the "death came swirling down" thing. I even like the longass names because that's how I roll. You obviously don't, and...that's okay, friend. It's okay 
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Jul 22, 2017 21:39
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Most people aren't skilled at technical prose and can't explain why they like a style, much as I can't explain why I find Marvel movies visually dull without someone to explain color grading and shot blocking. That's okay but it's fun to dig in on the technical level too and you can learn a lot 
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Jul 22, 2017 22:35
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Sitting Here posted:No, that is an opinion. Which belongs to you. It's not an "accurate judgment". I think your brain is broken. You seem to be unable to distinguish between your personal opinion and indisputable fact. You forgot to show how that was not an accurate description of Bakker's writing. Your claiming that it's just an "opinion," but what stops an opinion from being accurate? My judgement isn't even particularly original: Sephyr posted:Stuff that was Bad I predict that next you'll argue that objective statements about art are impossible. Here's an accurate, objective statement to pre-empt that: The Darkness that Comes Before is written ridiculously. R. Scott Bakker actually posted:The feeble-minded fool had the gall to interrupt him? Ikurei Xerius III, the Emperor who would see the Nansurium restored? Outrage! This would be acceptable if it was a cheesy comic book, but sadly this is not a great classic like Silver Age Superman or Savage Sword of Conan. It's like one of Guy Gavriel Kay's worst efforts. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Jul 22, 2017 |
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Jul 22, 2017 23:14
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I like the subtle and not-so-subtle ways the third-person descriptions change between POV characters, because you get into the heads of the major players in the story and appreciate the world from their unique perspectives.: So you're saying there are characters. Bakker's books are all about exploring differing psychologies. Some are human and relatable, like Achamian and Esmenet. Some are tragic and interesting, like Cnaiür and Inrau. Some are bombastic and outrageous, like Xerius and Conphas. And some are totally alien, like the Dûnyain and the Nonmen and the Skinspies and the Ciphrang, and it's interesting to see their thoughts and personalities expressed on the page, and how those manifest their culture and behaviour. There's a lot of thought put into it and he's very good at thinking through the implications of everything he writes. : You fail to realise his philosophy is merely a superficial aesthetic and has no value.Bakker is fundamentally deeply concerned about what happens to human identity and our folk psychological notions on the bleeding edge of technology and scientific understanding about what it means to be human. His stories probe that bleeding edge by introducing story elements (like those alien psychologies) that stretch our assumptions about intentionality and self-knowledge, and forces us to confront moral questions that arise naturally from violations of those assumptions. : But you haven't said anything objective about why it's good, because art can be jhudged onb obrhjectvive mnerits tyhat nlks sonvslsnt[a a@\,[',faI'm really bored of your gimmick.
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Jul 23, 2017 00:46
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- The ways the third-person descriptions change between POV characters That's just basic description of characters' internal thoughts. - Different psychologies You seem to have mixed up "characters" and "psychologies" here. What is a tragic psychology, or an outrageous psychology? - "Bakker is fundamentally deeply concerned about what happens to human identity and our folk psychological notions on the bleeding edge of technology and scientific understanding about what it means to be human. His stories probe that bleeding edge by introducing story elements (like those alien psychologies) that stretch our assumptions about intentionality and self-knowledge, and forces us to confront moral questions that arise naturally from violations of those assumptions." Such as?
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Jul 23, 2017 01:03
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I mean, I like prog rock and this website, so while I agree that lots of the writing in Bakker's series is ridiculous, I disagree that ridiculousness is a barrier to enjoyment. Unless you personally don't get anything out of that. Like, the bit you quoted reads as intentionally ridiculous and super villain-ish to me (which is kind of funny and ironic, given the fate of the Ikurei family and the fact that they are pretty impotent in the scheme of things). While it's certainly not a line that I would put on the book jacket, it works well enough for me that I didn't think much about it when I was reading. Mind you, I'm not saying Bakker's writing is objectively good. Just that I like it. Because you asked me what I like about the prose. FWIW if I was a pro writer I think I'd really appreciate receiving your incisive analysis. I just think your posting is kind lame because it boils down to you trying to prove to people why they shouldn't like thing. General Battuta posted:Most people aren't skilled at technical prose and can't explain why they like a style, much as I can't explain why I find Marvel movies visually dull without someone to explain color grading and shot blocking. That's okay but it's fun to dig in on the technical level too and you can learn a lot I read and critique so much terrible terrible goon fiction (and, let's face it, also contribute to the terrible) as a hobby. I'm pretty accustomed to putting on my RAAAGGH THING BAD hat when reading. When I read for fun, I tend to try and give the writer the benefit of the doubt because I want to sit back and enjoy someone else's world for a while. I'm sure there is a lot to be learned from ripping apart the Second Apocalypse series, but for now I'm content enjoying the rope-like phalluses swirling down in cataracts of despair (and hole loving).
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Jul 23, 2017 01:24
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:- The ways the third-person descriptions change between POV characters And yet it's done well, better than any other genre author I've read and many "serious literary" authors. BravestOfTheLamps posted:- Different psychologies Why do you assume I've mixed them up? Get over your linguistic prescriptivism. BravestOfTheLamps posted:- "Bakker is fundamentally deeply concerned about what happens to human identity and our folk psychological notions on the bleeding edge of technology and scientific understanding about what it means to be human. His stories probe that bleeding edge by introducing story elements (like those alien psychologies) that stretch our assumptions about intentionality and self-knowledge, and forces us to confront moral questions that arise naturally from violations of those assumptions." Such as the very first chapter, where we're introduced to a character with the gift of pattern recognition to the degree that it unravels human free will. This mirrors contemporary trends in neuroscience and machine learning that show it's perfectly possible to create machines that know us better than we know ourselves, that can predict our actions before we have even thought of them. This is nothing new, and even though the idea of an AI that knows what we will do is chilling, we're kind of settled into that idea by now. But Kellhus is an AI so realistic, he walks and talks like a man. The control he exerts is indistinguishable from the control that every other man exerts; and so we are forced to ask, what is the difference? He simply nods and understands, and says the things we want to hear - and he makes us love. It's scary, but it's also exactly the actions that someone takes when they make us love in a "natural" human way. So we have two situations, one virtuous and one morally flagrant, and yet the action taken by the agent are the same in either, and we try to find why one offends us and the other does not. The difference is not in the intent - it is in the absolute foreknowledge of the outcome. Which is weird. In fact it's absurd, and it forces into light the contradiction in our existing moral frameworks, and how they can't possibly survive the future in which science opens up the human mind and starts loving around with it. You ignore the interesting parts of the book in favour of complaining about black demon seed constantly, which shows you aren't really engaging with the text on anything more than a superficial level.
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Jul 23, 2017 01:41
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Oh thank god BOTL is here, I've missed bare assertions and word count browbeating the thread into hating this author too.
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Jul 23, 2017 01:47
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The fountain of Rothfuss hath run dry at this point, milked like the teat of an aging crone, and BoTL yet hungered for more threadshitting.
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Jul 23, 2017 02:02
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Boing posted:And yet it's done well, better than any other genre author I've read and many "serious literary" authors. And why exactly is this such an impressive feat? Boing posted:gushing These are the same questions that any story about manipulation will raise in a critical reader's mind. For example, Titus Groan brings up the exact same topic with Steerpike, Peake's much more entertaining sociopath. You're so enamoured with the trappings that you don't notice the writing for all the gushing. You haven't even tried to justify the framework of pulp hackery that Bakker uses for his "philosophical" fiction. Granted, the prologue of The Darkness that Comes Before is actually the best written part of it (probably of the whole series really), even as it deflates before the reader's eyes. Imagine an arrow loosed from a bow, traveling a modest distance, it's trajectory leading it to dive forever into the pit of Sub- Guy Gavriel Kay Writing. This fear of a perfect, all-knowing manipulator who makes mockery of free will just another facet of Bakker's tiresome doom-and-gloom. Peake in contrast makes the same topic for a good and thoughtful read. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 23, 2017 08:54
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 I've already said I really enjoy his prose and writing style. I'm perfectly happy to discuss the themes and trappings and relative merits of the book, as well as its flaws, and the similarities and differences between it and other works. This is the thread for that. But you're just trying to assert to people who like the book that they don't like it, please knock it off.
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Jul 23, 2017 12:39
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Boing posted:But you're just trying to assert to people who like the book that they don't like it, please knock it off. Hmmm, you seem to be in fact carrying over a grudge from the Kingkiller thread, since nowhere did I argue that people who like Prince of Nothing do not like it. I'm merely arguing that they like bad writing.
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Jul 23, 2017 12:42
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:
And? His writing satisfactorily conveys the characters and ideas of the novels, but whenever we admit to enjoying stuff beyond the raw prose(say, how Xerius's megalomania makes him oblivious to very obvious manipulation, or Cnaiur's festering obsession with Moenghus, or the philosophical in-jokes scattered throughout) you tell us that it doesn't count.
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Jul 23, 2017 18:36
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Strom Cuzewon posted:And? His writing satisfactorily conveys the characters and ideas of the novels, but whenever we admit to enjoying stuff beyond the raw prose(say, how Xerius's megalomania makes him oblivious to very obvious manipulation, or Cnaiur's festering obsession with Moenghus, or the philosophical in-jokes scattered throughout) you tell us that it doesn't count. They don't count as good writing. if I was arguing that no one enjoys Bakker's writing, I'd do so on the basis that it's absolutely miserable and joyless to read. Also, there's nothing beyond the prose, because art is really only its form.
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Jul 23, 2017 19:56
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General Battuta posted:I guess he's also got an interesting take on narrating set piece battles. Very Homeric This, and it reminds me of the time when I read Die Niebelungen. The way the final massacre is listing every dumbass one both sides dying reads a lot like what Bakker puts forth when describing battles. Germanic poetry apparently really liked tallying up battle stats down to the individual length of guts getting ripped out of people.
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Jul 23, 2017 20:02
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Also, there's nothing beyond the prose, because art is really only its form. I'm no longer sold on this. Blindsight is a middling work prose-wise, but it made me rethink my idea of what makes literature valuable - it's a work whose effect depends largely on the ideas it presents. Libluini posted:This, and it reminds me of the time when I read Die Niebelungen. The way the final massacre is listing every dumbass one both sides dying reads a lot like what Bakker puts forth when describing battles. Germanic poetry apparently really liked tallying up battle stats down to the individual length of guts getting ripped out of people. Homer spends as much time on blow by blow action as any Die Hard or Fast and the Furious.
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Jul 23, 2017 20:18
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:
There's a pretty big citation needed here, because I and everyone in this thread are demonstrably enjoying these books for stuff other than it's form.
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Jul 23, 2017 21:15
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It's just an application of McLuhan to art: "The medium is the message."Marshall McLuhan posted:Today when we want to get our bearings in our own culture, and have need to stand aside from the bias and pressure exerted by any technical form of human expression, we have only to visit a society where that particular form has not been felt, or a historical period in which it was unknown. Professor Wilbur Schramm made such a tactical move in studying Television in the Lives of Our Children. He found areas where TV had not penetrated at all and ran some tests. Since he had made no study of the peculiar nature of the TV image, his tests were of "content" preferences, viewing time, and vocabulary counts. In a word, his approach to the problem was a literary one, albeit unconsciously so. Consequently, he had nothing toreport. Had his methods been employed in 1500 a.d. to discover the effects of the printed book in the lives of children or adults, he could have found out nothing of the changes in human and social psychology resulting from typography. Print created individualism and nationalism in the sixteenth century. Program and "content" analysis offer no dues to the magic of these media or to their subliminal charge. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Jul 23, 2017 |
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Jul 23, 2017 21:53
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:It's just an application of McLuhan to art: "The medium is the message." That only looks at the changes induced in the audience by the art - and by art in aggregate, not individual pieces. So while it seems a very sensible approach to take in the sociology of art, I don't see how it has much relevance to how we should criticise an individual piece.
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Jul 23, 2017 22:04
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