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I am shocked, shocked that fans of a series about how rhetoric and persuasion may be nothing but empty, advantage-seeking manipulation are opposed to the idea that "the medium is the message".
BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Jul 23, 2017 |
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Jul 23, 2017 22:08
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If prose were the only thing that mattered, Pevear and Volokhsnky or whoever would have to be as brilliant as Dostoevsky, which is unlikely.
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Jul 23, 2017 22:15
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I am shocked, shocked that fans of a series about how rhetoric and persuasion may be nothing but empty, advantage-seeking manipulation are opposed to the idea that "the medium is the message". Surely the message is the message? I'm not denying that the medium is part of that, or that the books wouldn't be improved if Bakker was able to work in some rhetorical trickery to back up his diatribes, but you still haven't given a compelling reason for why we should focus on the quality of the prose to the exclusion of everything else.
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Jul 23, 2017 22:38
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Surely the message is the message? I'm not denying that the medium is part of that, or that the books wouldn't be improved if Bakker was able to work in some rhetorical trickery to back up his diatribes, but you still haven't given a compelling reason for why we should focus on the quality of the prose to the exclusion of everything else. Readers are drawn to Bakker because of his prose. If they were really into just the intellectual content of the books, they'd be reading philosophy and science instead of overlong fantasy novels. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jul 23, 2017 |
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Jul 23, 2017 22:52
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I think more people are into the world-building than the prose, from the conversations I've observed.
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Jul 23, 2017 22:56
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Readers are drawn to Bakker because of his prose. If they were really into just the content of the books, they'd be reading philosophy instead of overlong fantasy novels. I'm drawn because I like his ideas, I don't agree with them (I doubt he does), but it's fun to see them chewed over and played with. It's essentially speculative philosophy - if such-and-such thing existed (empirical proof of damnation, a mentant prophet, bioengineered rape monsters) then how would that change our approach to morality and philosophy. It's less rigorous then a philosophy book because it's as much concerned with character's reactions to these ideas as it is with the ideas themselves. Dune Messiah isn't a treatise on the impossibility of free will under omniscience, it's the story of an omniscient man desperately clinging to his last vestege of freedom. And Bakker gives us a generous handful of characters all taking different approaches to these questions, and all coming up wanting.
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Jul 23, 2017 23:08
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Readers are drawn to Bakker because of his prose. If they were really into just the intellectual content of the books, they'd be reading philosophy and science instead of overlong fantasy novels.  Have you considered that medium and message can interact to produce an experience that is greater than the sum of its parts? Or are you ideologically committed to regurgitating inane literary dogma at every turn?
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Jul 23, 2017 23:46
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The medium is always part of the message and in fact it defines the parameters of the message, but you still need to introduce some entropy into your medium to convey a message, and there is an extent to which entropy (in the informatic sense) is medium-independent. I look at Blindsight because it's the book that convinced me that science fiction had distinct worth beyond being Literature — Blindsight isn't a great book by my literary standards, but it's an amazing and necessary work of science fiction (even intellectually pivotal!) because it says things about the human condition which could not be conveyed without aliens, technojargon, etc etc. As opposed to an amazing book like The Sparrow which could probably be just as good if it were purely realist, Blindsight needs its specific content to work. Reading philosophy and science isn't really comparable to reading an overlong fantasy series even when both convey the same message, because the medium is so very different. Prose narrative kind of pre-chews ideas for you by showing you how these ideas are understood and applied by people. (Now, I think Bakker's philosophy is inane, his 'neuroscience' is all freshman-year obvious, and his terrors of Blind Brains, Rape Modules, and Pornographic Future are basically overheated religious fears glazed in citations...but I do think it's possible to write well on these topics in fiction, and produce something that has worth distinct from a bunch of papers on Google Scholar.) e: write well on the topics of neuroscience, psychology, and subjectivity in general, not Bakker's weird hobgoblins General Battuta fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 00:04
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I'm drawn because I like his ideas, I don't agree with them (I doubt he does), but it's fun to see them chewed over and played with. It's essentially speculative philosophy - if such-and-such thing existed (empirical proof of damnation, a mentant prophet, bioengineered rape monsters) then how would that change our approach to morality and philosophy. It's less rigorous then a philosophy book because it's as much concerned with character's reactions to these ideas as it is with the ideas themselves. Dune Messiah isn't a treatise on the impossibility of free will under omniscience, it's the story of an omniscient man desperately clinging to his last vestege of freedom. And Bakker gives us a generous handful of characters all taking different approaches to these questions, and all coming up wanting. What's strikes me as Bakker's failure is that doing this requires 1) crafting a stupid fantasy universe, and 2) seven books and counting. Boing posted:
This hopeful mystification ("greater than the sum of its parts") is the kind of thing Bakker mocks. R. Scott Bakker posted:“But prayers,” Proyas continued, “are never enough, are they? Something will happen, some treachery or small atrocity, and my heart will cry, ‘Fie on this! drat them all!’ And do you know what, Achamian? It’s a possibility that saves me, that drives me to continue. What if? I ask myself. What if this Holy War was in fact divine, a good in and of itself? [...] Is that so hard to believe`?—that despite men and their rutting ambition, this one thing, this Holy War, could be good for its own sake? If it is impossible, Achamian, then my life has as little meaning as yours...” "But the prose," Boing continued, "is never good enough, is it? Something will come up, some dreadful clunker of a phrase, and my aesthetic side will cry 'Fie on this! drat you, Bakker!' And do you know what, BotL? it's a possibility that saves, that drives me to continue. What if? I ask myself. What if this series was in fact good and well-written when you get down to it? [...] Is that so hard to believe`?—that despite authors and their ambitious misfires, this one thing, Secod Apocalypse, could be good for its own sake? If it is impossible, BotL, then my posts have as little meaning as yours...” BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 00:05
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Are you appealing to Bakker's fictional dialogue as an authority?
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Jul 24, 2017 00:07
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I'm noting the irony that I seem to have understood Bakker than his fan. One could say that I'm like the series's hero, Anälsyringe Milhoüse, among the worldborn.
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Jul 24, 2017 00:42
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I'm not sure what your purpose is here beyond making yourself feel smug, since we're all just kinda blankly responding to your song and dance with "Uhhhh, ok, anyways...." 
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Jul 24, 2017 08:32
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"Why is this person talking about Bakker's novels in the Bakker thread? I just don't understand."
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Jul 24, 2017 08:42
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:What's strikes me as Bakker's failure is that doing this requires 1) crafting a stupid fantasy universe, and 2) seven books and counting. I also happen to like the plot and the setting, so that's a feature not a bug.
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Jul 24, 2017 09:03
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:What's strikes me as Bakker's failure is that doing this requires 1) crafting a stupid fantasy universe, and 2) seven books and counting. Oh word?
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Jul 24, 2017 11:18
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General Battuta posted:
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Jul 24, 2017 11:24
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:"Why is this person talking about Bakker's novels in the Bakker thread? I just don't understand." You aren't talking about his novels, you are obsessing about a single specific aspect of those novels that you are hung up on. Boing posted:Have you considered that medium and message can interact to produce an experience that is greater than the sum of its parts? Or are you ideologically committed to regurgitating inane literary dogma at every turn? This can't be true because he doesn't like the writing. QED I preordered this why can't I read it yet. 
Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 16:24
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Nevvy Z posted:You aren't talking about his novels, you are obsessing about a single specific aspect of those novels that you are hung up on. Do you mean the writing? If so, lol
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Jul 24, 2017 16:51
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Do you mean the writing? If so, lol Your gimmick is tired. There is more to works than just prose. Sorry you can't enjoy those bits, but the rest of us are gonna keep doing it.
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Jul 24, 2017 17:08
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Nevvy Z posted:Your gimmick is tired. There is more to works than just prose. Sorry you can't enjoy those bits, but the rest of us are gonna keep doing it. You seem to subscribe to the naive belief that the medium is basically just a neutral container for the message ("there is more to works than just prose"). In reality, prose fiction is nothing but prose. Occasionally, some verse might be thrown in. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 17:28
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You seem to subscribe to the naive belief that the medium is basically just a neutral container for the message ("there is more to works than just prose"). Nah. 
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Jul 24, 2017 17:49
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Hot take: people are drawn to R. Scott Bakker's books because of his writing, and people are interested in his ideas because of how his prose expresses them.
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Jul 24, 2017 17:53
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You seem to subscribe to the naive belief that the medium is basically just a neutral container for the message ("there is more to works than just prose"). "there is more to works than just prose" is not the same as "just a neutral container". If I say there is more to the cardiovascular system than just the heart I am definitively not saying that you can survive with just a pair of lungs. I also find it telling that you've completely skipped GB's reasoned post about ideas vs prose and are just being condescending and making bald assertions.
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Jul 24, 2017 18:20
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You seem to subscribe to the naive belief that the medium is basically just a neutral container for the message ("there is more to works than just prose"). Is a song recorded onto a CD innately better then one on a ln 8-track? Is the high gloss technically adept and technologically advanced cinematography of Man of Steel make it a better movie then A Bridge Too Far? Is a war movie with better special effects a better war movie?
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Jul 24, 2017 19:08
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Strom Cuzewon posted:"there is more to works than just prose" is not the same as "just a neutral container". If I say there is more to the cardiovascular system than just the heart I am definitively not saying that you can survive with just a pair of lungs. Nevvy Z's argument is common to fandom: the form of a work is treated as a kind of foundation that is partly or fully invisible, because it's important to focus on the "other" things - characters, plot, ideas, "action, world-building," etc. This is basically the same as the view of the medium being a 'filter' through which the message passes. But the medium is the message, and the prose is the content. I agree with GB in that Bakker's philosophy and ideas are inane. Thus I argue that the reason people are drawn to them is how he expresses them. That he chooses to write about an idea is itself is choice made in the medium of prose. SickZip posted:Is a song recorded onto a CD innately better then one on a ln 8-track? Is the high gloss technically adept and technologically advanced cinematography of Man of Steel make it a better movie then A Bridge Too Far? Is a war movie with better special effects a better war movie? You're asking three different questions: - does the fact that it's recorded on a more advanced medium make one work superior to another? - does the style (not quality) of cinematography make this one movie better than this other? - does the quality of special effects make a movie innately superior to others in the genre? Do you even know yourself what you want to know with these? Because lol BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 19:21
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You're asking three different questions: The questions are rhetorical and the answer is an obvious no to all of them. The unstated point is that the privileging of the medium above other qualities is an obviously shallow viewpoint in other mediums, so why would it be true in writing while not in film or music?
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Jul 24, 2017 19:28
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SickZip posted:The questions are rhetorical and the answer is an obvious no to all of them. The unstated point is that the privileging of the medium above other qualities is an obviously shallow viewpoint in other mediums, so why would it be true in writing while not in film or music? Well now it's clear that you're stupidly confused, because you don't know what people mean with "medium" in this context. When I say that "the medium is the message" in this context, I mean that his prose (the "medium") is the key to judging his works, because everything he does in his books, he does with prose (how he expresses things with his chosen "medium"). You're confusing this with favouring more advanced forms of audiovisual recording and better special effects. lol at that. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 19:39
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Boing posted:
Why are quoting webcomics to make your point?
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Jul 24, 2017 19:43
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BOTL's logic seems to end in the conclusion that a book with worse prose can never be better than a book with better prose no matter what. This is obviously absurd.Black Leaf posted:Why are quoting webcomics to make your point? Why are you asking stupid questions?
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Jul 24, 2017 20:28
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Nevvy Z posted:BOTL's logic seems to end in the conclusion that a book with worse prose can never be better than a book with better prose no matter what. This is obviously absurd. Hardly. For example, Bakker writes technically better than Guy Gavriel Kay, but Guy Gavriel Kay is not a one-trick pony like Bakker. Kay has other dimensions to his prose than the same tiresome doom-and-gloom. His books are better than Bakker's,e ven if they're not good. Also notice your concession that Bakker doesn't write well - the defence of the "book with worse prose" (read: Bakker's works) against books with better prose. Nevvy Z posted:Why are you asking stupid questions? Well you could notice that Boing is shooting themselves in the foot with the two mediums (text and image). They use the webcomic to claim that they're above the argument and don't care too much, but then immediately write about how much they care and give commands. so they failed to use a webomic to make point, lol BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 20:47
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Also notice your concession that Bakker doesn't write well I actually didn't concede that, my point was that there are things about books that can make them better/worse other than your opinion of the writing. But since you can't stop just making poo poo up, away you go.
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Jul 24, 2017 20:53
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Bakker's excellent at writing about the use of magic, which I normally find really tedious in fantasy writing, so there's another talent alongside doom and gloom 
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Jul 24, 2017 20:59
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General Battuta posted:Bakker's excellent at writing about the use of magic, which I normally find really tedious in fantasy writing, so there's another talent alongside doom and gloom To be fair, that's only evident after the first book. In the first book, it might as well be d&d.
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Jul 24, 2017 21:24
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Well now it's clear that you're stupidly confused, because you don't know what people mean with "medium" in this context. You're assuming a distinction instead of justifying it. The expression of cinema or tv through visuals, cinematography, special effects, or the like is as important to the how of cinema as prose is to the how of lit. The basis of the technique/skill is different but, well, so what? If the medium really is the message then the medium being crafted in banks of ILM's computers shouldnt change a thing about that observation. A CD is just technological advancement but its also a literal medium that changes the experience of the work You can talk about cinema without being reductive and obsessing over the technical how. You can talk about literature in the same way. All lit is prose like all biology is just physics: both trivially true and usually useless. There's layers of abstractions and emergent properties between the higher level phenomenon and the lower one so that a characteristic can be essentially irreducible or be complex enough that all you do is waste time by trying to do so SickZip fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Jul 25, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 22:06
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I think a better comparison with movies is someone like Tarantino or Tarsem - stylishly shot, framed and executed (excellent "prose") but not necessarily that much going on under the surface. SFX or CD are just ways of transmitting that - you wouldn't be overly concerned with the quality of a books paper, or the neatness of its fonts.
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Jul 24, 2017 22:09
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I think a better comparison with movies is someone like Tarantino or Tarsem - stylishly shot, framed and executed (excellent "prose") but not necessarily that much going on under the surface. Cinematography and SFX are both means of visual communication. Their aims are the same even if one is more technologically based.
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Jul 24, 2017 22:56
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How can you guys have been on the internet for as long as you have and not recognize someone who argues only to win? You're never going to change his mind a single millimeter. He'll just post and post and post until you get bored and don't reply, or he gets distracted by some other chucklehead that's dumb enough to throw their hat into the ring. You'll argue incessantly about subjective minutia, and in the meantime anyone who'd be interested in having a real conversation will avoid the thread in hopes that it'll eventually go back to normal, but by the time BOTL gets bored the only people left will be the ones who only want to poo poo on the books or anyone who likes them, which is particularly hilarious, that they didn't have the balls to speak up before and only come in riding this unpleasant gently caress's pathetic coattails.
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Jul 25, 2017 05:11
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:How can you guys have been on the internet for as long as you have and not recognize someone who argues only to win? This is all very true and it would be nice if the book barn mods were as vicious as the D&D ones when it comes to handing down super long probations for serial threadshitting.
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Jul 25, 2017 05:21
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Personally, I think it's ok if someone doesn't like the books and yet wants to talk about them.
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Jul 25, 2017 07:44
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Rime posted:This is all very true and it would be nice if the book barn mods were as vicious as the D&D ones when it comes to handing down super long probations for serial threadshitting. I should never have told him in the SF recommendation thread that there was a Bakker thread. I am sorry for that. He goes away if you ignore him.
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Jul 25, 2017 07:49
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