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jBrereton posted:has this atrocity been posted here the fantasy counterpart of aaron sorkin i mean, actual elves and goblins fantasy, not the usual sorkinesque fantasy of believing that slashing entitlements helps people.
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Jul 24, 2017 21:39
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Concerned Citizen posted:well it's both. obviously we need to raise the minimum wage and make sure people are getting paid what they are worth. but as far as this goes, the reality is that one big obstacle to class mobility is the lack of access to economically viable training. if a person wants to learn a skill without such a program, they have to pay for their own education which is not a viable option for many unemployed. the commodification of education has hit the working class hard. subsidized apprenticeships/on-the-job training is a popular approach because it's ideal for the worker and employer - the worker gets paid to learn a new trade, the employer gets additional workers without having to pay for the risk of the employee not working out. in the perfect world, anyone who wanted to change their career could, at the drop of a hat, switch and get guaranteed pay while learning new skills. that's not realistic but a step toward that will help prevent people from getting trapped in dead-end jobs. in a full employment world this is possible. but employers don't want full employment cause that comes with higher wages so instead we have give them tax cuts to train people  it's a loving bad thing to throw more money at corporations and not citizens, but thanks for telling us trickle down welfare is good reagan
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Jul 24, 2017 21:39
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hmm let's see, we need skill so why don't we take the economically listless youth of this country provide training and wages that are initially above market average and offer them jobs that are ideally suited for people in good physical shape and not tied down by family??? nah too radical
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Jul 24, 2017 21:40
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too bad about joss having dum dum politics idgaf about his fantasy stuff but his Much Ado about Nothing movie is pristine
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Jul 24, 2017 21:41
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Condiv posted:what's the point of a staggered news release when you build no hype? aren't the dems regularly interacting with people who are paid megamillions to figure this poo poo out? trial balloons like how it went from "better skills better jobs better wages" on Friday to "better jobs better wages better future" today they're trickling stuff out with no fanfare because they want to see how people react, so if it bombs among people who follow this poo poo they can back up to tweak and revise the messaging before they start spending money on blasting it out to everyone of course, the fact that they're still doing that now, even though they'd hyped today as a big release day, suggests major dysfunction behind the scenes. they're not confident in this at all, but no one with any say is willing to admit it's garbage and drag it back to the drawing board yet.
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Jul 24, 2017 21:41
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Main Paineframe posted:trial balloons well yeah, if this was just a sneak peak like yesterday i'd understand, but this was supposed to be the big reveal loving repubs even set up a site to steal their thunder prematurely, and it's got more content than the "planned" better deal released today jesus loving christ 
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Jul 24, 2017 21:43
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How can you call this garbage I was assured it's a very good proposalConcerned Citizen posted:i think it's a very good proposal, i'm disappointed you don't like it
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Jul 24, 2017 21:44
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Condiv posted:in a full employment world this is possible. but employers don't want full employment cause that comes with higher wages a tax credit (i.e. a subsidy) directly to an employer who hires and trains an employee, and keeps them at full time for a certain number of years while paying a solid wage, is not "trickle down." trickle down would be cutting their taxes and assuming that will naturally lead to more jobs. in this case it's essentially the government paying for a job directly
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Jul 24, 2017 21:44
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Concerned Citizen posted:a tax credit (i.e. a subsidy) directly to an employer who hires and trains an employee, and keeps them at full time for a certain number of years while paying a solid wage, is not "trickle down." trickle down would be cutting their taxes and assuming that will naturally lead to more jobs. in this case it's essentially the government paying for a job directly tax credits are cutting their taxes hth. this is trickle-down welfare cause the government pays employers to (hopefully (  )) help workers
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Jul 24, 2017 21:46
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Concerned Citizen posted:a tax credit (i.e. a subsidy) directly to an employer who hires and trains an employee, and keeps them at full time for a certain number of years while paying a solid wage, is not "trickle down." trickle down would be cutting their taxes and assuming that will naturally lead to more jobs. in this case it's essentially the government paying for a job directly Huh, and there I was thinking that the government actually providing training and employments was paying for a job directly, rather than just tossing yet-another incentive out there for private businesses (who never ever exploit this kind of thing to cash in on public moneys and then not deliver on their end) to kinda- sorta- do it. Silly me, thinking words meant things here in the year 2017.
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Jul 24, 2017 21:47
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The best idea would probably be to have some sort of taxpayer funded training system to prepare young people before they enter the workforce. It could teach them the skills they need to hold a job when they become an adult at 18. We could even make attendance at a training program like this mandatory for kids so nobody is left in the dust before they even begin. The only question is how we separate out the "blue collar" kids and the "white collar" kids so we can get them in the right training programs.
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Jul 24, 2017 21:47
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Concerned Citizen posted:a tax credit (i.e. a subsidy) directly to an employer who hires and trains an employee, and keeps them at full time for a certain number of years while paying a solid wage, is not "trickle down." trickle down would be cutting their taxes and assuming that will naturally lead to more jobs. in this case it's essentially the government paying for a job directly this distinction si an accounting fiction the result is basically the same loving thing
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Jul 24, 2017 21:47
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Rastor posted:How can you call this garbage I was assured it's a very good proposal but if we give a whole bunch of tax subsidies to internet providers they'll totally make our nation the best in the world when it comes to internet speed and service! i would like to take this opportunity to apologize for the revulsion that just welled up in you just now
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Jul 24, 2017 21:47
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Concerned Citizen posted:a tax credit (i.e. a subsidy) directly to an employer who hires and trains an employee, and keeps them at full time for a certain number of years while paying a solid wage, is not "trickle down." trickle down would be cutting their taxes and assuming that will naturally lead to more jobs. in this case it's essentially the government paying for a job directly no its the government paying for a job directly would be hiring not people for government agencies and projects. this is just more corporate wellfare designed to paper over the decline of trade unions
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Jul 24, 2017 21:47
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huh. cc apparently had enough mana stored up to cast the sigil "tax subsidy" and the portal to the suck zone was thrown open once again
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Jul 24, 2017 21:49
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"this program where welfare trickles down from employers to employee is not trickle-down welfare!" - CC
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Jul 24, 2017 21:49
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Concerned Citizen posted:if you want to argue that it is not sufficiently broad or exciting as the first item to be rolled out for the jobs portion of the proposal, i would agree. if you want to argue that it's a pile of centrist lanyard garbage, well, i guess blame bernie for it since he wrote it. can we blame the dems for not including medicare-for-all, another bernie proposal, in their groundbreaking program Keep Our Donors Happy?
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Jul 24, 2017 21:49
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Willa Rogers posted:can we blame the dems for not including medicare-for-all, another bernie proposal, in their groundbreaking program Keep Our Donors Happy? no, cause all bernie legislation is equally great, and if you criticize any of it you hate bernie and leftism
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Jul 24, 2017 21:50
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Huh, and there I was thinking that the government actually providing training and employments was paying for a job directly, rather than just tossing yet-another incentive out there for private businesses (who never ever exploit this kind of thing to cash in on public moneys and then not deliver on their end) to kinda- sorta- do it. Silly me, thinking words meant things here in the year 2017. well in the case of the dem proposal, the tax credit does not pay out until a few years after the business has already delivered on their end. so it's not really easy to exploit unless you are just outright committing tax fraud. which obviously happens, of course. i guess in an ideal world we'd just have a big government jobs program, but i actually think we can/should do both! even a big government jobs program can contract out to private construction Gene Hackman Fan posted:but if we give a whole bunch of tax subsidies to internet providers they'll totally make our nation the best in the world when it comes to internet speed and service! in the case of the $80 billion fiber optic bill, they actually did build the fiber optic lines, they're just dark because the money the government only covered laying the cable under existing right-of-ways. we never funded last-mile construction (the bulk of the cost) so it's just sitting there doing nothing
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Jul 24, 2017 21:52
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a questionnaire to regulate drug prices, lmfbo
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Jul 24, 2017 21:52
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Tax the Rich -> Give to Poor
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Jul 24, 2017 21:53
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Concerned Citizen posted:well in the case of the dem proposal, the tax credit does not pay out until a few years after the business has already delivered on their end. so it's not really easy to exploit unless you are just outright committing tax fraud. which obviously happens, of course.  i think we found out who the new dem jobs program is meant to help
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Jul 24, 2017 21:54
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Frijolero posted:Dems could come out with something as simple as "Wage Theft is hosed up, corporations need to pay up!" and be instantly popular. yah but then the dnc and schumer would have to pay their interns.
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Jul 24, 2017 21:54
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Condiv posted:"this program where welfare trickles down from employers to employee is not trickle-down welfare!" - CC trickle down is like, i'm gonna cut everyone's taxes by 10% and the rising tide will lift all boats. in this case, you just get partially reimbursed for the cost of an employee if you took the risk on training someone and then keep them on as full time for a few years at a good wage
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Jul 24, 2017 21:55
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why is everyone arguing with cc being an idiot instead of laughing at the questionnaire thing? I can't stop
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Jul 24, 2017 21:55
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Matt Zerella posted:why is everyone arguing with cc being an idiot instead of laughing at the questionnaire thing? I can't stop I missed it while fanboy posting about the ccc post a link
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Jul 24, 2017 21:56
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Condiv posted:well yeah, if this was just a sneak peak like yesterday i'd understand, but this was supposed to be the big reveal yeah, it shows they're not even close to having it together. they don't have confidence in the message, and they don't have confidence that they can get to a message that they can feel confident in. leadership is paralyzed and reduced to limply playing it by ear, trickling it out a little at a time and adjusting on the fly based on what plays well and what doesn't the only thing that surprises me is how well they're doing at keeping anything from leaking. it must be a goddamn disaster behind the scenes, morale must be a mess
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Jul 24, 2017 21:56
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Matt Zerella posted:why is everyone arguing with cc being an idiot instead of laughing at the questionnaire thing? I can't stop Could someone repost this? It got lost real quick.
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Jul 24, 2017 21:57
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Main Paineframe posted:yeah, it shows they're not even close to having it together. they don't have confidence in the message, and they don't have confidence that they can get to a message that they can feel confident in. leadership is paralyzed and reduced to limply playing it by ear, trickling it out a little at a time and adjusting on the fly based on what plays well and what doesn't I kind of assume this is all being done by one consulatant company who doesn't gaf cause they making 5 times my salary a year to poo poo this out and can never be fired because daddies a donor
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Jul 24, 2017 21:58
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Matt Zerella posted:why is everyone arguing with cc being an idiot instead of laughing at the questionnaire thing? I can't stop i mean they are actually proposing creating an agency with the ability to fine drugmakers who raise prices to gouge consumers. the questionnaire is the bit where they have to justify a price hike (i.e. is it because we just want more money and people's lives depend on our product so gently caress you, or is it because it now costs 200% to produce more after our factory caught on fire)
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Jul 24, 2017 21:58
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Concerned Citizen posted:i mean they are actually proposing creating an agency with the ability to fine drugmakers who raise prices to gouge consumers. the questionnaire is the bit where they have to justify a price hike (i.e. is it because we just want more money and people's lives depend on our product so gently caress you, or is it because it now costs 200% to produce more after our factory caught on fire) I'm dying, help me. please, someone help
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Jul 24, 2017 21:59
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Matt Zerella posted:why is everyone arguing with cc being an idiot instead of laughing at the questionnaire thing? I can't stop Because even CC can dimly comprehend that that bit's indefensibly stupid an- Concerned Citizen posted:i mean they are actually proposing creating an agency with the ability to fine drugmakers who raise prices to gouge consumers. the questionnaire is the bit where they have to justify a price hike (i.e. is it because we just want more money and people's lives depend on our product so gently caress you, or is it because it now costs 200% to produce more after our factory caught on fire) Never mind.
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Jul 24, 2017 21:59
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ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha yes, I'm sure they're totally going to tell the truth on their questionnaire. loving
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Jul 24, 2017 22:01
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Because even CC can dimly comprehend that that bit's indefensibly stupid an- i would prefer a complete price control board that covers all medical procedures, but calling it "lower drug prices with a questionnaire" is just a lie  Matt Zerella posted:ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha well the devil is in the details, isn't it? the ideal would be criminal penalties attached to it and an aggressive agency with the power to levy large fines. a cfpb-type role, essentially. a weak puppy dog regulatory agency will obviously not achieve much.
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Jul 24, 2017 22:01
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a corporate statement on practically any subject is the most non-specific document in the world. and cc expects us to take a pharma company's word that a drug is more expensive because reasons that didn't make the news like a factory burning down
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Jul 24, 2017 22:02
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shut the gently caress up cc
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Jul 24, 2017 22:02
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Concerned Citizen posted:well in the case of the dem proposal, the tax credit does not pay out until a few years after the business has already delivered on their end. so it's not really easy to exploit unless you are just outright committing tax fraud. which obviously happens, of course. step 1) fire as many of your current workers as possible step 2) hire a bunch of new ones step 3) claim tax credit for hiring new people step 4) wait a few years, collect big payout for simply replacing some workers with some other workers coincidentally, studies have found that government-subsidized hiring programs like this typically just displace existing workers rather than creating new long-term jobs Concerned Citizen posted:i mean they are actually proposing creating an agency with the ability to fine drugmakers who raise prices to gouge consumers. the questionnaire is the bit where they have to justify a price hike (i.e. is it because we just want more money and people's lives depend on our product so gently caress you, or is it because it now costs 200% to produce more after our factory caught on fire) are they? the bit that got posted earlier said nothing about actually being able to fine drugmakers - it just said their justification statements would be published publicly so that consumers could shame or pressure drugmakers into lowering prices
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Jul 24, 2017 22:04
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Concerned Citizen posted:i would prefer a complete price control board that covers all medical procedures, but calling it "lower drug prices with a questionnaire" is just a lie just say "medicare for all."
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Jul 24, 2017 22:04
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doubling down on a regulatory agency that fines a company for doing a bad thing. I'm dead
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Jul 24, 2017 22:05
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Gene Hackman Fan posted:a corporate statement on practically any subject is the most non-specific document in the world. yes it would be pretty silly to rely on their word, which is why the agency is proposed to have investigative powers
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Jul 24, 2017 22:05
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