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Israel has removed the metal detectors from the al-Aqsa mosque.GaussianCopula posted:A constitution can be changed, just look at Turkey to see how a state can easily transition from secular, even Laizist to religious - or look at the US to see how dominant religion can still be even if you have a secular constitution. Add to that that both major Palestinian parties are very religious and one of them has a founding document, that some people call "a modern Mein Kampf" with regard to anti-Semitic statements. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, because it sounds an awful lot like "allowing Palestinians political representation in Israel would lead to an unacceptable degree of religious influence in Israeli politics" in which case you are just a little bit behind the times here.
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Jul 25, 2017 11:06
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I notice they're swapping them out for other security measures. While I get why tightening security on the mosque got people so angry, any idea why metal detectors in particular provoked such outrage?
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Jul 25, 2017 11:14
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Darth Walrus posted:I notice they're swapping them out for other security measures. While I get why tightening security on the mosque got people so angry, any idea why metal detectors in particular provoked such outrage? They slowed down and prevented people entering. Also probably allowed IDF to piss people off and turn them away.
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Jul 25, 2017 11:26
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Darth Walrus posted:I notice they're swapping them out for other security measures. While I get why tightening security on the mosque got people so angry, any idea why metal detectors in particular provoked such outrage? Because they looked like this:  Figure it out.
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Jul 25, 2017 11:26
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kurrajongs posted:all races need to be protected from each other in every single country in the world, you idiot. for example, in america, every race other than white needs to be protected from white people america is not an ethical state.
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Jul 25, 2017 11:35
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there are no ethical states. the only solution to this mess is to abolish totally the notion of a country - we must all become global citizens and gently caress each other until we're all the same beautiful colour
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Jul 25, 2017 11:37
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lollontee posted:Because they looked like this: These are the same kind of metal detectors ISIS used.
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Jul 25, 2017 12:04
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emanresu tnuocca posted:These are the same kind of metal detectors ISIS used. I believe that the Islamic state, in contrast to Israel, would have no security controls around a holy site of a different religion, mostly because they would destroy it before people can even come to visit/pray.
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Jul 25, 2017 12:08
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qkkl posted:Every ethno-state that started out as a colony committed some form of ethnic cleansing. It's simple mathematics. When an area at time X is 100% ethnicity A, and then is 90% ethnicity B at time (X + T), then some form of ethnic cleansing occurred. Yeah whatever bubs. In the case of Israel we're talking about things that happened within living memory. "Statistically speaking, anyone's ancestors include a large number of thieves and murderers. You just need to go back enough generations and you'll eventually find some criminals. Yet people aren't convicted for the sins of their distant forefathers. Therefore, it is only justice that I get to kill and steal, too!"
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Jul 25, 2017 14:12
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Ytlaya posted:I agree with this interpretation. I think that it is more shocking for people in developed nations to see other people in developed nations (or nations perceived that way, at least) do terrible things. Like, no one is really surprised when Saudi Arabia does lovely things, but Israel is generally treated as similar to any other developed Western nation. And I think it's worth admitting that, consciously or subconsciously, this is based on some amount of bias and flawed thinking. I'm not trying to undermine the points others have made--that Israel is a case where it at least seems like you could have a conversation and you could change things since it's a democracy with a vibrant civil conversation about its own affairs. I just mean that I do try to check myself for whether I'm just treating Israel's actions as more immediate and noticeable because it's a mostly Western, developed country where most citizens would be classed as white in the US.
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Jul 25, 2017 14:39
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GaussianCopula posted:I believe that the Islamic state, in contrast to Israel, would have no security controls around a holy site of a different religion, mostly because they would destroy it before people can even come to visit/pray. Well you've convinced me. Israel is *slightly* better than ISIS.
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Jul 25, 2017 14:56
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Cat Mattress posted:Yeah whatever bubs. In the case of Israel we're talking about things that happened within living memory. Around the same time the Russians, Czechs, Greeks and Polish had their ethic cleansing campaigns - yet the people in those cases largely have learned to deal with it instead of building an ideology that is centered about their eternal refugee status.
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Jul 25, 2017 15:18
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Forcibly displaced by a campaign of ethnic cleansing? Stop whining and pull yourself up by your bootstraps
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Jul 25, 2017 15:22
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My grandaddy was forcibly displaced and you didn't hear him whine about it, no back in those days you just got on with things and weren't so self centred!
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Jul 25, 2017 15:23
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Polygynous posted:Well you've convinced me. Israel is *slightly* better than ISIS. The Jewish State is not (yet?) as bad as the Islamic State.
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Jul 25, 2017 15:42
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lollontee posted:Because they looked like this: Looks like something you'd find at many sports stadiums and large amusement parks 
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Jul 25, 2017 16:33
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GaussianCopula posted:yet the people in those cases largely have learned to deal with it instead of building an ideology that is centered about their eternal refugee status. Hooooooo boy
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Jul 25, 2017 16:42
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GaussianCopula posted:Around the same time the Russians, Czechs, Greeks and Polish had their ethic cleansing campaigns - yet the people in those cases largely have learned to deal with it instead of building an ideology that is centered about their eternal refugee status. I bet I can think of another non-Palestinian group that was ethnically cleansed in the 40s you didn't mention that developed strong feelings on the topic and took drastic action around it. also when I look for a nation that doesn't harbor strong feelings towards a past foreign oppressor, I too think of Poland
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Jul 25, 2017 16:48
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GC's "I would have been a card carrying member of the NSDAP if it was the
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Jul 25, 2017 16:49
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GaussianCopula posted:Around the same time the Russians, Czechs, Greeks and Polish had their ethic cleansing campaigns - yet the people in those cases largely have learned to deal with it instead of building an ideology that is centered about their eternal refugee status. I wonder why being a refugee is a significant part of the Palestinian identity but not that of the Russians, Czechs, Greeks and Polish. What could possibly be the difference in the political situation between these two categories of people
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Jul 25, 2017 16:53
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:I wonder why being a refugee is a significant part of the Palestinian identity but not that of the Russians, Czechs, Greeks and Polish. What could possibly be the difference in the political situation between these two categories of people I was listing people who were doing the ethnic cleansing after WW2, not those who were getting cleansed (although, in the case of the Poles, both happened)
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Jul 25, 2017 17:02
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hakimashou posted:If he was that much of a psycho and also a Palestinian he might do something really psycho which would set back the cause of the Palestinians like... murder strangers in the street with a knife, or set a bomb off in a crowded cafe, or run people over deliberately with a car. It is literally impossible to control the entire population to the extent necessary to completely prevent this sort of thing, especially given the limits Israel places upon Palestinian self-government and resources. Even developed nations can't completely stop all violent crime, and when you add the whole "populations tend to get angry when they're violently oppressed" element to the mix the idea of Palestinians somehow voluntarily stopping all violence becomes absurd. At the very least, it's probably less realistic than the idea of Israel not committing war crimes. At least the latter is something that is technically possible and within the control of the Israel government/military. So it's obvious that what you're really concerned about isn't pragmatism, but something else. I wonder what that might be. Pirate Radar posted:And I think it's worth admitting that, consciously or subconsciously, this is based on some amount of bias and flawed thinking. I'm not trying to undermine the points others have made--that Israel is a case where it at least seems like you could have a conversation and you could change things since it's a democracy with a vibrant civil conversation about its own affairs. I just mean that I do try to check myself for whether I'm just treating Israel's actions as more immediate and noticeable because it's a mostly Western, developed country where most citizens would be classed as white in the US. Yeah, though I think this is mostly just due to people paying more attention to the stuff they hear more about in the media (or elsewhere in their lives). I think the main issue in that case is "lack of focus on other issues" rather than "too much focus on Israel (or whatever)", though. vvvv But they don't do it in the same way! At least the Israelis commit civilized violence, as opposed to the violence committed by Palestinians which is obviously "uncivilized" for, uh, reasons. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Jul 25, 2017 |
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Jul 25, 2017 17:02
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Look if you want to get mad about murdering civilians I'm all for it since Israelis do it 10x as much.
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Jul 25, 2017 17:09
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Ytlaya posted:It is literally impossible to control the entire population to the extent necessary to completely prevent this sort of thing, especially given the limits Israel places upon Palestinian self-government and resources. Even developed nations can't completely stop all violent crime, and when you add the whole "populations tend to get angry when they're violently oppressed" element to the mix the idea of Palestinians somehow voluntarily stopping all violence becomes absurd. A good first step would be the complete abolishment of the PLO Martyr Fund - you know the fund that rewards the families of violent criminals.
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Jul 25, 2017 17:13
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A good first step would be to give several thousand billion dollars in military aid to the PLO so that it can get tanks and bombers and then kill their enemies in the non-criminal way.
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Jul 25, 2017 17:20
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GaussianCopula posted:A good first step would be the complete abolishment of the PLO Martyr Fund - you know the fund that rewards the families of violent criminals. Sure as long as we apply the same moral standards to the IDF.
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Jul 25, 2017 17:30
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Lol this thread is going to get locked because of all the extremely obvious trolls and all the people trying to earnestly debate them.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:04
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Ultramega posted:Lol this thread is going to get locked because of all the extremely obvious trolls and all the people trying to earnestly debate them. Well we wouldn't want to break I/P traditions, would we?
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Jul 25, 2017 20:08
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Disinterested posted:Look if you want to get mad about murdering civilians I'm all for it since Israelis do it 10x as much. No but you see Israelis aren't killing any humans beings, only Palestinians so its A-OK The selective outrage people like Gaussian and qkkl show off just demonstrates their own complete lack of empathy. To them this isnt a problem to be solved because of all the human suffering it has caused in the past half-century. It is an eternal religious war waging since the creation of man to eliminate evil that they must win once and for all via genocide
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Jul 25, 2017 20:18
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Ytlaya posted:It is literally impossible to control the entire population to the extent necessary to completely prevent this sort of thing, especially given the limits Israel places upon Palestinian self-government and resources. Even developed nations can't completely stop all violent crime, and when you add the whole "populations tend to get angry when they're violently oppressed" element to the mix the idea of Palestinians somehow voluntarily stopping all violence becomes absurd. Not to mention that the hope for even a finite push towards pacifism relies on some kind of motivating factor. Palestinians aren't going to collectively look at some random Zionist's post on a dying comedy forum and embroil themselves in some massive reform of society. But God forbid that to enable that kind of attitude to thrive we suggest Israel stops committing war crimes against the Palestinians and engages with them honestly towards establishing peace. Instead, judging by the typical arguments, rather than being expressly forbidden it's actually a moral imperitive that Israel commits war crimes. How mean of the Palestinians to force the Israel's to oppress them.
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Jul 25, 2017 22:12
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The Zionist ideology is to push all non-Jews out of what they claim their borders are, and while they're in charge they're not going to stop until that's done. Other countries have sometimes used that as an excuse to go to war but this time to there's nothing in that area other countries give a poo poo about. Bad luck the Palestinians live in the only place in the region without oil. You might think the crimes against humanity might be a bit of a sanity check for the Israelis, but here we are.
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Jul 25, 2017 22:20
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Ultramega posted:Lol this thread is going to get locked because of all the extremely obvious trolls and all the people trying to earnestly debate them. Like the intifada it will rise again
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Jul 25, 2017 22:21
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I'm wondering how many of the pro-Israel people here are even Israelis. The trolls don't really seem to talk about the place as if they live here, though of course I could be wrong about any or all of them.
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Jul 25, 2017 22:59
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The really obvious tell with the trolling accounts (and in fact the people who attempt to appear like they actually give a poo poo about palestinian rights like kim jong il) is the clinical method in which they try to conflate other historical injustices with some facet of the palestine/israel conflict either recent or distant. It's insulting to even entertain such notions and, that's the point. At this point I'd much rather take the obvious trolls than the way more pernicious dipshits like kim jong who doesn't even bother to get basic poo poo like the actual details of the Taba talks correct.
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Jul 25, 2017 23:10
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You guys wish all of these were trolling.
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Jul 25, 2017 23:47
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I don't go sleuthing through their post history but what would that prove anyway?
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Jul 26, 2017 00:10
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the I/P thread is a JIDF/Mossad psyop
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Jul 26, 2017 00:12
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420 Gank Mid posted:No but you see Israelis aren't killing any humans beings, only Palestinians so its A-OK But the way Israelis are killing the Palestinians is just more civilized. There's just something different about a Palestinian killing an Israeli that really riles you up! I wonder what that thing could be. Ultramega posted:I don't go sleuthing through their post history but what would that prove anyway? Uh, pretty sure those people are for real, unless you're counting "trolling" in this case as "expressing a genuine opinion that gets other people riled up." I'm not sure why you would assume that pro-Israeli posters on the internet are necessary fake-posting, given there are plenty of those people in real life.
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Jul 26, 2017 00:16
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qkkl posted:Well maybe they should try a different plan. If I were Palestine I would offer an unrealistically generous plan, something like: So your solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is ethnic cleansing? By god, why didn't we think of that before?!?
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Jul 26, 2017 00:19
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team overhead smash posted:So your solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is ethnic cleansing? By god, why didn't we think of that before?!? That's just his opinion as an alien. He hasn't told us his non-alien opinion yet.
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Jul 26, 2017 00:27
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