|
Pembroke Fuse posted:I think you can legitimately give people the benefit of the doubt when they give you cause to do so. However, the current environment is that white supremacists are repeatedly saying racist poo poo and then thinly covering it up by saying "it's just a joke". In that context, anyone who repeats this behaviour can probably be lumped in with them without losing too much sleep over it. At worst, you labelled an enabler as a true believer, and that's not a really serious difference these days. And from my perspective he's given me cause to. I think being an enabler isn't always one's intention, so to label them a racist or anti-Semite when they aren't is unjust. When we inaccurately use these terms it defangs them. Being called a racist shouldn't be something someone can just brush off as if they were called an rear end in a top hat.
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 09:47 |
|
|
Midig posted:Except JonTron shared opinions.... I don't see how this is comparable. i am not defending them. i am just saying they are idiots who hear about it and because of either bitterness or stupidty or lack of critical thinking, buy into it and share it around or start parroting it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:31
|
|
|
SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:I don't think there's a meaningful enough distinction between the two. I think there is and that distinction combined with education might even cut down on rapes.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:32
|
|
|
fallenturtle posted:When we inaccurately use these terms it defangs them. Being called a racist shouldn't be something someone can just brush off as if they were called an rear end in a top hat. Oh gently caress off with this horseshit.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:33
|
|
|
fallenturtle posted:I think there is and that distinction combined with education might even cut down on rapes. Education would help with the rape jokes. There needs to be a general societal shift towards gender equality. It's one more thing in the myriad of lovely patriarchal behavior
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:34
|
|
|
would we be quibbling about whether the sign pewdepie got them to hold was racist if it was this one?
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:34
|
|
|
fallenturtle posted:Being called a racist shouldn't be something someone can just brush off as if they were called an rear end in a top hat. You're right. In theory, it should make someone look deep within themselves and consider their actions and promise to do better. In practice, people get offended and go "gently caress you for calling me racist!" and double down and offer non-apology apologies of "I'm sorry if you were offended."
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:35
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:She talks about how transgressive humor and satire needs intent, needs logic, and needs to be making a statement about the thing it is transgressing upon or satirising. So what statement is PDP making about killing Jews, exactly? Pewdiepie posted:I was trying to show how crazy the modern world is, specifically some of the services available online. I picked something that seemed absurd to me—That people on Fiverr would say anything for 5 dollars.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:35
|
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:i am not defending them. i am just saying they are idiots who hear about it and because of either bitterness or stupidty or lack of critical thinking, buy into it and share it around or start parroting it. JonTron shared opinions on a debate that were racist. If PDP enters a debate and says anything like JonTron did my tone will change pretty quickly.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:37
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:Oh gently caress off with this horseshit. You disagree? The people on the alt-right are already mocking being called racists. It's a joke to them, they don't it seriously.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:37
|
|
|
fallenturtle posted:And from my perspective he's given me cause to. I think being an enabler isn't always one's intention, so to label them a racist or anti-Semite when they aren't is unjust. When we inaccurately use these terms it defangs them. Being called a racist shouldn't be something someone can just brush off as if they were called an rear end in a top hat. You've got it backwards. The racists aren't able to brush off being called a racist, that's why they're yelling so loudly. That's why you see white supremacists break down and sob when they get caught. Being called an rear end in a top hat is what's easy to brush off. Now instead of "Look at that rear end in a top hat" and "Hey man, that's a real rear end in a top hat move" it's "Look at that racist" and "Hey man, that's a pretty racist thing to say." In other words, racists don't like being called racists because all of a sudden it means something to people besides the person calling them that. fallenturtle posted:You disagree? The people on the alt-right are already mocking being called racists. It's a joke to them, they don't it seriously. No one cares about what the alt-right think about being called racists. You know why? Because they're demonstrably racist.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:37
|
|
|
Guys, we need to be very considerate of bigots and not call them bigots. That would be wrong, and make us the real bigots for suggesting that it's wrong to advocate killing minorities. Thank God fallenturtle and Midig were here to set us straight!
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:37
|
|
|
fallenturtle posted:You disagree? The people on the alt-right are already mocking being called racists. It's a joke to them, they don't it seriously. They never will.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:38
|
|
|
Midig posted:Still rings true with this anecdote. He is incredibly dumb, not malicious. If you repeatedly drop cigarettes that repeatedly cause fires, then your refusal to introspect, learn and change your behaviour is malicious. Repeated, willful, ignorance of the effects of your actions is in fact more than just ignorance.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:38
|
|
|
fallenturtle posted:You disagree? The people on the alt-right are already mocking being called racists. It's a joke to them, they don't it seriously. They will never take is seriously because they are proud to be racists. How do you not get this? To show this all he needed to do was have them say "Fiverr is hosed up". There was no purpose, no logic, and no meaningful intent to choosing "Kill the Jews" instead.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:40
|
|
|
Now find where he said all that other Nazi poo poo was jokes, because fallenturtle posted:It has to do with intent, not frequency. huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:42
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:How can you tell when something isn't a joke when the person can just say that you just don't get their humor? And why does that matter if it's a joke, since you admitted already that jokes can be bigoted and joke-tellers can be too. Context. And sometimes you can't.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:46
|
|
|
SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:Education would help with the rape jokes. There needs to be a general societal shift towards gender equality. It's one more thing in the myriad of lovely patriarchal behavior Definitely.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:48
|
|
|
fallenturtle posted:Context. And sometimes you can't. The context is that Felix believes that killing Jews is something to at best be used as a prop for a non-joke, and at worst believes it is something to be actively mocked. Those are both anti-Semitic beliefs.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:49
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:The context is that Felix believes that killing Jews is something to at best be used as a prop for a non-joke, and at worst believes it is something to be actively mocked. Those are both anti-Semitic beliefs. And what shall be his punishment?
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:53
|
|
|
Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:And what shall be his punishment? Why do you think we care about punishment? He has the freedom to say whatever he wants. Disney also has the freedom to not pay him money. And finally, I have the freedom to call him a Nazi gently caress! Everyone wins!
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:55
|
|
|
Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:And what shall be his punishment? He shall be fired from Disney.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:55
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:He shall be fired from Disney. Very well my lord Your will is my command
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:56
|
|
|
Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:And what shall be his punishment? Recognizing that he's an anti-Semite for one, instead of just arguing all day about whether we've accurately categorized a dipshit as a fuckbag or vice versa. Pembroke Fuse fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Jul 25, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:58
|
|
|
Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:Very well my lord You do know it already happened, right?
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 21:58
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:You do know it already happened, right? .................
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 22:00
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:They will never take is seriously because they are proud to be racists. How do you not get this? Honestly I think a lot of them would care if it was made public. Like the internet and real life are pretty separate for a lot of them I'd wager. If suddenly it made the local news and their families and employers knew they were hardcore racists and it was going to negatively impact their lives it would stop being a joke real quick. As an example see that crying Nazi fireman dude (or was he a cop?) and other similar cases.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 22:00
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:Guys, we need to be very considerate of bigots and not call them bigots. That would be wrong, and make us the real bigots for suggesting that it's wrong to advocate killing minorities. Thank God fallenturtle and Midig were here to set us straight! I wonder if you think that joke becomes funnier the more often you repeat it. BTW in case there is any doubt about this I don't think people are bigoted for pointing out bigotry, nor do I think that I have even suggested that. It goes without saying, but you don't know with this guy.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 22:01
|
|
|
Midig posted:I wonder if you think that joke becomes funnier the more often you repeat it. BTW in case there is any doubt about this I don't think people are bigoted for pointing out bigotry, nor do I think that I have even suggested that. It goes without saying, but you don't know with this guy. So jokes aimed at you arent cool, but Jewish people should just be ok with PDP "joking" that they should be killed?
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 22:05
|
|
|
Kibayasu posted:You've got it backwards. The racists aren't able to brush off being called a racist, that's why they're yelling so loudly. That's why you see white supremacists break down and sob when they get caught. Being called an rear end in a top hat is what's easy to brush off. Now instead of "Look at that rear end in a top hat" and "Hey man, that's a real rear end in a top hat move" it's "Look at that racist" and "Hey man, that's a pretty racist thing to say." Turning from Semitics to semantics, I think there is an importance in saying something like "Look at that racist" vs "Hey man, that's a pretty racist thing to say." Based on what I've seen, I'd say PDP's joke was antisemitic but that he's isn't necessarily antisemitic. quote:No one cares about what the alt-right think about being called racists. You know why? Because they're demonstrably racist. I think the division is important because I think there's a better chance a person saying or doing racist things can be convinced of their errors vs an actual full-blown racist. For example there was that vlog where Milo (the one without a prostate) said everyone is racist... and I think he's right... I think we all have bigoted moments and hopefully we catch ourselves and correct ourselves. But by calling everyone a racist including those who aren't racists then it stops being meaningful.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 22:08
|
|
|
fallenturtle posted:I'd say PDP's joke was antisemitic but that he's isn't necessarily antisemitic. Your logic is hosed. Making anti-Semitic jokes means that you are an Anti-Semite. Full stop.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 22:09
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:So jokes aimed at you aren't cool, but Jewish people should just be ok with PDP "joking" that they should be killed? The differences usually matter more than the similarities. You give me reason to believe the joke has a real argument behind it, or not really an argument, you just made up a position for me that I supposedly hold.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 22:09
|
|
|
Great Metal Jesus posted:Honestly I think a lot of them would care if it was made public. Like the internet and real life are pretty separate for a lot of them I'd wager. If suddenly it made the local news and their families and employers knew they were hardcore racists and it was going to negatively impact their lives it would stop being a joke real quick. As an example see that crying Nazi fireman dude (or was he a cop?) and other similar cases. Are you advocating doxxing people?
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 22:09
|
|
|
Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:Are you advocating doxxing people? if you're posting such horrible stuff that if ur friends and colleagues found out about it you would be in trouble, then maybe the issue is with you. the internet is not anonymous, ur an idiot if you think teh code of honour about doxxing or whatever is actually important u loving simpleton
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 22:11
|
|
|
Midig posted:The differences usually matter more than the similarities. You give me reason to believe the joke has a real argument behind it, or not really an argument, you just made up a position for me that I supposedly hold. I wasn't making an argument, I was making fun of you for, once again, white knighting for bigots.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 22:11
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:Your logic is hosed. Making anti-Semitic jokes means that you are an Anti-Semite. Full stop. I'd argue this needs at least one more step: making anti-Semitic jokes, then not apologizing for the anti-Semitism but rather fake apologizing that people ~*~were offended by a joke~*~ makes you an anti-Semite. Like I suspect if he'd apologized honestly, acknowledged that his joke was anti-Semitic, in bad taste, and not funny, and then went on not to continue to make anti-Semitic jokes, we'd be having a different conversation now. But that's not what happened. It was the usual non-apology, "sorry you were offended" poo poo that shows us that he doesn't give a poo poo that his joke was anti-Semitic, he's just sorry he got called out and slapped on the wrist.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 22:12
|
|
|
Harrow posted:I'd argue this needs at least one more step: making anti-Semitic jokes, then not apologizing for the anti-Semitism but rather fake apologizing that people ~*~were offended by a joke~*~ makes you an anti-Semite. Fair point. That it wasn't a one-time incident also weighs into the scenario as well.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 22:13
|
|
|
Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:Are you advocating doxxing people? No, I'm citing cares where this has actually happened and racist firefighter dude broke down sobbing like a baby about how sorry he was when it came to light that he owned a bunch of extremely racist urls or whatever. My point is that they only find being called a racist a joke because for a lot of people the Internet isn't considered real life.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 22:16
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:I wasn't making an argument, I was making fun of you for, once again, white knighting for bigots. First off, the avatar is coincidental. I think knights are cool. Secondly, joking is not bigotry. Not all jokes are "just a joke", but this time it was. Whatever, I will just assume that you guys are 40+ which is why it flies over your heads.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 22:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 09:47 |
|
|
Who What Now posted:Guys, we need to be very considerate of bigots and not call them bigots. That would be wrong, and make us the real bigots for suggesting that it's wrong to advocate killing minorities. Thank God fallenturtle and Midig were here to set us straight! Or, you know, you could just not be an rear end in a top hat to people before knowing enough to decide if they are an rear end in a top hat.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 22:20
|
|