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The Bloop posted:I've been running though TNG with someone who hasn't watched it before and I've been mulling over going in airdate order with DS9 or just doing all TNG then all DS9 I did this with my wife and she refused to go back to TNG because suddenly all the writing and characters felt shallow to her once she had a taste of even season 1 of DS9. Had to skip most of season 7 other than a few choice episodes and watch the finale, which she really liked, but then wanted to get right back into DS9 asap.
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Jul 26, 2017 18:38
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The Voyager episode Riddles is really good. There's no real B story (if anything it'a A1 and A2) and Ethan Phillips and Tim Russ show off their acting chops in full force. It's eerily similar to Tuvix but totally different at the same time. It also occurred to me that putting on Neelix's makeup every taping would be terrible. Worf's was no fun I'm sure but Neelix's had to take much longer unless there's something I'm missing.
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Jul 26, 2017 18:47
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Phillips says it was five hours a day to apply.
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Jul 26, 2017 18:58
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Baronjutter posted:I've always been curious what the galactic community of god-beings is like. The Q are just seemingly one of many god-like forces that they've encountered. Do all the different god-beings hang out? Do they have turf or agreements on who can meddle with what? They all seem to be pretty insular and do their own thing, as far as we've ever seen. The only time I can really think of any sort of association between them being mentioned was in some pretty bad Trek novel (Q Squared) where Q and Trelane from TOS squared off against each other. But I'm pretty sure Peter David just retconned Trelane so that he was a Q so I guess that doesn't count. At any rate we know half of the Q are literally suicidal due to boredom, so I'm sure godlike beings don't tend to stick around very long.
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Jul 26, 2017 19:02
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Baronjutter posted:I did this with my wife and she refused to go back to TNG because suddenly all the writing and characters felt shallow to her once she had a taste of even season 1 of DS9. Had to skip most of season 7 other than a few choice episodes and watch the finale, which she really liked, but then wanted to get right back into DS9 asap. This seems really weird to me, because I just watched it recently and DS9 season 1 is like TNG Lite. They rip off a lot of better TOS/TNG episodes until they find their footing around the middle of season 2. Admittedly Quark, Odo, Garak, and O'Brien are all pretty fantastic right from the start.
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Jul 26, 2017 19:14
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I think it's probably because DS9 feels like it understands it's characters better from day one than any of the other shows did. Encounter At Farpoint and most of TNG s1 has Picard in that stern, cold authoritarian role that they for some reason thought was a good idea, there's the reshuffling of Geordi and Worf, the ditching of Tasha and them trying to figure out what to do with Wes which shows a lot of teething issues from even a basic series bible level. DS9 in contrast only really has to course-correct with Bashir, and even then they do so by making it part of his maturing. Kira et al feel like the writers all understand the characters, their backstories, and their motivations much more from the start such that what changes do happen are part of defined arcs for those characters rather than obvious tinkering with a TV formula to find a balance.
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Jul 26, 2017 19:22
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Drone posted:They all seem to be pretty insular and do their own thing, as far as we've ever seen. The only time I can really think of any sort of association between them being mentioned was in some pretty bad Trek novel (Q Squared) where Q and Trelane from TOS squared off against each other. But I'm pretty sure Peter David just retconned Trelane so that he was a Q so I guess that doesn't count. Bite your tongue. Q-Squared is the best Trek novel with Q in it, and I'll brook no dissent on this point. But as for your larger point, yeah most godlike beings in Trek don't seem to do much but hang around by themselves. A few like to stick with a particular planet (the Organians, the Prophets), but not all of them do. There's probably some sort of greater hierarchy among them that us meatbags aren't privy that separates the masters of time and space from your run-of-the-mill sentient gas cloud.
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Jul 26, 2017 20:39
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Marshal Radisic posted:Bite your tongue. Q-Squared is the best Trek novel with Q in it, and I'll brook no dissent on this point. Someone apparently hasn't read I, Q.
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Jul 26, 2017 21:48
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Marshal Radisic posted:Bite your tongue. Q-Squared is the best Trek novel with Q in it, and I'll brook no dissent on this point. I've got to imagine that that isn't exactly a title with strong competition
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Jul 26, 2017 21:51
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Gaz-L posted:I think it's probably because DS9 feels like it understands it's characters better from day one than any of the other shows did. Encounter At Farpoint and most of TNG s1 has Picard in that stern, cold authoritarian role that they for some reason thought was a good idea, there's the reshuffling of Geordi and Worf, the ditching of Tasha and them trying to figure out what to do with Wes which shows a lot of teething issues from even a basic series bible level. DS9 in contrast only really has to course-correct with Bashir, and even then they do so by making it part of his maturing. Kira et al feel like the writers all understand the characters, their backstories, and their motivations much more from the start such that what changes do happen are part of defined arcs for those characters rather than obvious tinkering with a TV formula to find a balance. Then there's Dax...
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Jul 26, 2017 22:08
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:This seems really weird to me, because I just watched it recently and DS9 season 1 is like TNG Lite. They rip off a lot of better TOS/TNG episodes until they find their footing around the middle of season 2. Admittedly Quark, Odo, Garak, and O'Brien are all pretty fantastic right from the start. DS9 characters are mostly just better defined and written than TNG characters. Episode quality aside, I can see why someone who's mostly interested in the characters might not feel like diving back into TNG after DS9. Paradoxish fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Jul 26, 2017 |
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Jul 26, 2017 22:47
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:I want to encourage you not to watch things because they're culturally relevant, but because they're good. Just save All Good Things until after you finish DS9. It's kind of an aesthetic thing, I see all sci-fi from the 90s and 2000s as being the same show because they look the same and I had an intense disinterest in them collectively when I was young. It got reinforced whenever I was watching another show and I saw a preview or commercial for the latest huge plot development in Battlestar Galactica or what have you.
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Jul 26, 2017 22:50
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Paradoxish posted:DS9 characters are mostly just better defined and written than TNG characters. Episode quality aside, I can see why someone who's mostly interested in the characters might not feel like diving back into TNG after DS9. Yeah it was exactly this. She got very quickly invested in the characters and wanted to know what was going to happen next to them. In TNG it's fun to see how they solve the monster/anomaly of the week but there's no real character development to look forward to, they are not dynamic and there was no character-driven tension or conflict. She wanted to know how Kira and Sisko are going to get along and how the relationship is going to progress. She wanted to know how Kira's love life was going to play out. She wanted to know how Sisko is going to move on from the death of his wife and what sort of life him and Jake could make on the station. Was Bashir going to get Dax? Who's this plain simple tailor? Every episode of DS9 seemed to grow and change the characters and the next episode built off that. There was absolutely no sense of long term character growth in Trek. Picard had a single episode to get over being a borg then back to syndication-friendly sameness. Worf and Troi almost had a thing but don't worry, parallel dimensions. TNG hit the reset button just as hard as Voyager did, it was just a much better show so got away with it, plus that was just the norm for TV back then. But once you get a taste of that DS9 serialization you can't go back.
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Jul 26, 2017 23:09
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Jeb! Repetition posted:It's kind of an aesthetic thing, I see all sci-fi from the 90s and 2000s as being the same show because they look the same and I had an intense disinterest in them collectively when I was young. It got reinforced whenever I was watching another show and I saw a preview or commercial for the latest huge plot development in Battlestar Galactica or what have you. DS9 is really good and rather groundbreaking though. It's more character driven than most other TV sci-fi and it's plots tend to emphasize the slow burn rather than lots of twists and turns. Based on what you've liked so much about TNG season 3, I think you just might fall in love with it.
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Jul 26, 2017 23:21
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That does sound good. Maybe I'll watch it if I have time.
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Jul 26, 2017 23:35
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Jeb! Repetition posted:That does sound good. Maybe I'll watch it if I have time. If you loved BSG, DS9 is where Ronald D Moore got his start. It's not the same, but it's definitely as close as you're gonna get in Star Trek.
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Jul 26, 2017 23:43
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Baronjutter posted:I've always been curious what the galactic community of god-beings is like. The Q are just seemingly one of many god-like forces that they've encountered. Do all the different god-beings hang out? Do they have turf or agreements on who can meddle with what?
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Jul 26, 2017 23:45
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skooma512 posted:If you loved BSG, DS9 is where Ronald D Moore got his start. It's not the same, but it's definitely as close as you're gonna get in Star Trek. Moore actually got his start on TNG; "Sins of the Father" is actually one of his episodes, and it's the one that cemented his reputation as "the Klingon guy" on the show. He honed his skills on DS9, and as for Voyager...well, it was a regrettable experience for all concerned.
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Jul 27, 2017 00:14
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Jeb! Repetition posted:That does sound good. Maybe I'll watch it if I have time. It actually flows pretty smoothly from TNG, the the point where you should (if you can) watch the two series in broadcast order. A few things are actually going to develop across both series simultaneously, and that's a good way to ease into the way DS9 expands on the universe created in TNG. This is the only time in the franchise you get that kind of nesting. Plus, DS9 starts to get good just as TNG is winding down, which means you get a lot longer before running out. At the very least, there's a hell of a pay-off in Q-Less. EDIT - Also, yes, Ron Moore goes from TNG to DS9 and that's when it gets real good, so you've got that continuity there. After The War fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 00:44
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I've never done the tng 6-7/ds9 1-2 symultaneous thing (well maybe when they were airing, but I was like 7). Does it change the experience much?
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Jul 27, 2017 01:25
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Duckbag posted:I've never done the tng 6-7/ds9 1-2 symultaneous thing (well maybe when they were airing, but I was like 7). Does it change the experience much? No. I'd just finish TNG then start DS9.
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Jul 27, 2017 01:31
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Duckbag posted:I've never done the tng 6-7/ds9 1-2 symultaneous thing (well maybe when they were airing, but I was like 7). Does it change the experience much? I enjoyed it, but it makes TNG seem beige as gently caress in contrast. From the literal sets to the plots to the characters, it's like blinding beige that hurts the eyes after you get used to the soothing low lights of DS9
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Jul 27, 2017 01:32
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shadok posted:No. I'd just finish TNG then start DS9. Yea, just do this, no need to overcomplicate it.
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Jul 27, 2017 01:34
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Drone posted:At any rate we know half of the Q are literally suicidal due to boredom, so I'm sure godlike beings don't tend to stick around very long. Oh we've all done the scarecrow, big deal! 
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Jul 27, 2017 02:34
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Jeb! Repetition posted:It's kind of an aesthetic thing, I see all sci-fi from the 90s and 2000s as being the same show because they look the same and I had an intense disinterest in them collectively when I was young. It got reinforced whenever I was watching another show and I saw a preview or commercial for the latest huge plot development in Battlestar Galactica or what have you. If you're considering DS9 on the merits of the characters, I would again encourage you to give Babylon 5 an honest shot. DS9 is Trek getting its feet wet with serial storytelling and it does have strong characters, but B5 is the real deal for both. Definitely less polished on the production side at first, but in terms of especially characters and their arcs, the creator had years of lead time to hammer everything out. I'm the OP of the current B5 thread so I guess consider the source, but it's hard to imagine liking TNG/DS9 for the characters, and not B5, unless the lower budget production is that much of a deal killer.
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Jul 27, 2017 04:14
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DS9 handles its overall story arc waaaay better than B5 and that is an incontrovertible statement. B5 got its season order hosed with.
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Jul 27, 2017 04:56
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Pleasantly surprised by a young John Doman as a Bajoran Colonel hunting Shakaar, 7 years before playing Rawls in The Wire. And I use the term "young" loosely; in 1995 he already sounded grizzled and was losing hair.
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Jul 27, 2017 04:57
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CharlieWhiskey posted:Pleasantly surprised by a young John Doman as a Bajoran Colonel hunting Shakaar, 7 years before playing Rawls in The Wire. And I use the term "young" loosely; in 1995 he already sounded grizzled and was losing hair. The episode where Kai Winn tries to become Prime Minister? drat, that's such a classic.
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Jul 27, 2017 05:00
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Arglebargle III posted:DS9 handles its overall story arc waaaay better than B5 and that is an incontrovertible statement. B5 got its season order hosed with. I'm legit sort of taken aback at this opinion. In at least the early and middle seasons (as I recall, anyway, but it's holding true so far nearing the end of season 3) DS9 pretty much had its arc episodes at the beginning and then end of the seasons, with syndication-friendly episodes, by and large, in between. B5 was much more straightforwardly serialized. They had to wrap up one arc about 4-6 episodes earlier than planned, and then stretched out the first half of the next season after they were renewed, but that was about it in terms of interruptions.
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Jul 27, 2017 05:22
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Arglebargle III posted:DS9 handles its overall story arc waaaay better than B5 and that is an incontrovertible statement. B5 got its season order hosed with. Sorry, I love both of them and I think that DS9 is better but I strongly disagree. JMS had a pretty detailed story planned from the beginning, no matter how many changes he had to make to adapt to the reality of TV (ie. firing the male lead after season 1). DS9 had no plan when they started and developed their story season by season.
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Jul 27, 2017 05:26
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Arglebargle III posted:DS9 handles its overall story arc waaaay better than B5 and that is an incontrovertible statement. B5 got its season order hosed with. the finale of ds9 is dumb as hell, it's dumb as hell
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Jul 27, 2017 05:29
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corn in the bible posted:the finale of ds9 is dumb as hell, it's dumb as hell trigger warning
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Jul 27, 2017 05:30
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corn in the bible posted:the finale of ds9 is dumb as hell, it's dumb as hell It really is.
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Jul 27, 2017 05:41
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Arglebargle III posted:DS9 handles its overall story arc waaaay better than B5 and that is an incontrovertible statement. B5 got its season order hosed with. Going to have to join the chorus here. I grew up with DS9 and I'm only really getting into B5 as an adult but B5 honestly just does blow away DS9 in overall arc quality.
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Jul 27, 2017 05:41
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DS9 went some places, by Star Trek standards. It also features Benjamin Sisko the Self-Righteous War Criminal, Ferengi that I guess someone thought were funny or even deep (god help them), and at times feels like it's full of What Aboutism and Just as Badism. TNG had severe problems writing for about half of its cast and is still way better most of the time.
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Jul 27, 2017 05:50
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corn in the bible posted:the finale of ds9 is dumb as hell, it's dumb as hell The pah-wraith plotline is somewhere between dumb and unengaging as it had been all season, but the rest of the finale is good. I wouldn't describe the episode as worse than "mostly very good with some bad parts"
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Jul 27, 2017 05:54
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cheetah7071 posted:The pah-wraith plotline is somewhere between dumb and unengaging as it had been all season, but the rest of the finale is good. I wouldn't describe the episode as worse than "mostly very good with some bad parts" tbh the Pah-Wraiths and Prophets are nearly insufferable. This is especially true after seeing how much better executed the Vorlons and Shadows are in B5.
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Jul 27, 2017 05:57
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Incredibly bad opinions aside, B5's arc is sluggish and frustrating. I spent like two seasons waiting for the Shadows to do something and got bored with it. JMS is a good writer, but he read way too much LOTR and the prophesies and cosmic woo got way worse than DS9 ever did. Like the episode where a dude shows up who is a literal knight questing for the Holy Grail. It's not even a bad story, but I couldn't help thinking "wtf is this" the whole time. I'm fine with sci-fi shows having a "mythology," but poo poo like that is taking things a bit far imo.
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Jul 27, 2017 06:02
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The Ferengi poo poo rules. You don't get it. Capitalism is literally Quark's religion. To most Ferengi, it's an excuse to get one over on another. It's everything to Quark. He's as much a stick-in-the-mud of a Ferengi as Worf is a Klingon, it's an amazing character and the antics of his family are funny as hell.
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Jul 27, 2017 06:17
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shadok posted:JMS had a pretty detailed story planned from the beginning, no matter how many changes he had to make to adapt to the reality of TV (ie. firing the male lead after season 1) Slight Babylon 5 derail here, but I will never stop saying what a great guy Michael O'Hare was. Many years ago, circa 1997 or so, I was on the organizing committee of a very small sci-fi convention that flopped HARD. We had completely botched the publicity and advertising part, mostly because none of us actually knew what the hell we were doing. The committee mostly consisted of college kids who were in way over our heads. I think the oldest person on it was 28. Anyway, by some miracle that I still don't quite comprehend, we had signed Michael O'Hare, Commander Sinclair himself, as our guest of honor. He was without a doubt the high point of the entire experience. He was a class act all around, the polar opposite of the stereotypical Hollywood star. At the formal dinner the night before the con opened, he struck me as one of the nicest guys I ever met, and he made sure he got to talk to absolutely everyone, at least briefly. And when the time came for his big speech, if he was disappointed at addressing a mostly-empty auditorium (imagine a couple dozen people and a couple hundred empty seats), he never showed it for a second. In fact he said it was really nice to be with a smaller crowd composed of the hardcore fans. He brought everyone down to the first couple of rows and turned his keynote address into a much more intimate chat. He told some great stories, everyone who had questions got to ask them, and everyone went away smiling.
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