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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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| B |
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77 | 25.50% |
| K |
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160 | 52.98% |
| M |
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65 | 21.52% |
| Total: | 229 votes | ||
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It's not about the primary, it's about what strategy to take after the primary's over if I don't much like the nominee. Reading comprehension is key here.
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Jul 26, 2017 21:20
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yronic heroism posted:It's not about the primary, it's about what strategy to take after the primary's over if I don't much like the nominee. On how bad the nominee is that you "don't like" On how bad his opposition is On how close the race is etc
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Jul 26, 2017 21:24
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Condiv gets it and is just playing this little rhetorical game here, which is fine except I can just shoot back "why are you talking about Republicans if this is the bad Dem thread  "As usual NFS does not even get what the conversation is about and is just twisting it to fit some sick takedown of a predicted neoliberal talking point. yronic heroism fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Jul 26, 2017 |
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Jul 26, 2017 21:25
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yronic heroism posted:As usual NFS does not even get what the conversation is about and is just twisting it to fit some sick takedown of a predicted neoliberal talking point. Seek help there is more to this world than voting D every election and hoping for the best, despite what your Abuela may tell you. NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Jul 26, 2017 |
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Jul 26, 2017 21:26
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NewForumSoftware posted:Like most things in life... it depends. Holy poo poo a nuanced answer! If the race is close and I believe candidate X will vote for more bad poo poo than candidate Y, I will vote Y. If I don't like Y I will vote against Y in the primaries but not hatevote for X because of some ten dimensional chess.
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Jul 26, 2017 21:28
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yronic heroism posted:If the race is close and I believe candidate X will vote for more bad poo poo than candidate Y, I will vote Y. If I don't like Y I will vote against Y in the primaries but not hatevote for X because of some ten dimensional chess. Who here is advocating hatevoting for the opposition? Oh yeah, that's right, nobody. Maybe you'd like to step back from arguing with straw men and actually rejoin the discussion.
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Jul 26, 2017 21:29
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Well aside from the question of admitted Trump voters and their defenders, I still see not voting as basically handing the most regressive elements of our society a default win.
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Jul 26, 2017 21:36
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Breaking up the big donors isnt going to end racism and sexism, amirite ladies?
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Jul 26, 2017 21:36
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It is perfectly acceptable and ok for people to have lines in the sand wrt things they refuse to vote for. Why centrists and democrats seem to think they can simply avoid this by screaming "better than the other guy" from the top of their lungs is beyond me. It's absolutely ok that there are people who refuse to vote for politicians who advocate for more imperialism EVEN IF THE OTHER GUY IS WORSE It's categorically ok to not cast a vote when both of your options detest your existence, even if one is better. Honestly it's amazing that the Democratic party has managed to hold so many of the poor hostage for as long as they have. Insisting everyone participate in some rear end backwards game theory about which president is going to gently caress them over more is unreasonable. yronic heroism posted:Well aside from the question of admitted Trump voters and their defenders, I still see not voting as basically handing the most regressive elements of our society a default win. That's because you suffer from crippling idiocy, as evidenced by your posts in this thread
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Jul 26, 2017 21:37
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There's literally been one trump voter ITT, and he's given an understandable (even if you disagree with it) reasonable post for why
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Jul 26, 2017 21:37
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Call me crazy here, but I dont think a lot of Trump posters regularly read and post in D&D!
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Jul 26, 2017 21:39
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Neurolimal posted:Call me crazy here, but I dont think a lot of Trump posters regularly read and post in D&D! Sure they do, you just have to imagine every single person who didn't bend the knee and volunteer on a slaveowners campaign and unequivocally advocate for her as head of state is actually a secret Trump supporter trying to bring about the fourth reich.
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Jul 26, 2017 21:41
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yronic heroism posted:Well aside from the question of admitted Trump voters and their defenders, I still see not voting as basically handing the most regressive elements of our society a default win. The solution is not to be the lesser evil, but rather strive to do good. Ultimately a party that is satisfied with being seen as the lesser evil ("I mean, have you seen the other guys?") is satisfied with being a product of the greater evil, and as such supporting it is arguably just part of supporting the broader structure within which the greater evil works as well. In as simplistic terms as possible, if candidate A promises to euthanize 1000 randomly picked babies, and candidate B promises to euthanize 1% fewer babies, then the "better" candidate is allowing the supposedly evil opponent to be the driving force of politics by using his policies to triangulate the most politically expedient position likely to get more votes, and it is hard to argue that anybody is morally obligated to support candidate B under such circumstances. ANd ultimately the majority of Americans believe that is what is going on - that Democrats are just an empty organization endlessly reacting to Republican moves with no positive agenda of their own. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Jul 26, 2017 |
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Jul 26, 2017 21:43
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Fortunately such an extreme example is not what's going on.
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Jul 26, 2017 21:45
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NewForumSoftware posted:Sure they do, you just have to imagine every single person who didn't bend the knee and volunteer on a slaveowners campaign and unequivocally advocate for her as head of state is actually a secret Trump supporter trying to bring about the fourth reich. NFS. the only person who has compared you to a nazi here is you. you are embarrassing yourself, and others, with your flailing.
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Jul 26, 2017 21:46
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yronic heroism posted:Fortunately such an extreme example is not what's going on. It is an extreme example that illustrates the general principle - that, as per my late edit, the majority of Americans believes that this is exactly what is going on - that Democrats are just an empty organization endlessly reacting to Republican moves with no positive agenda of their own.
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Jul 26, 2017 21:47
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yronic heroism posted:Fortunately such an extreme example is not what's going on. Tell to that the families of the Yemeni people being starved to death by a Clinton Foundation donor. Ze Pollack posted:NFS. Have you decided to man up and back up the statement that I'm pretending to care about minorities or are you just here to make stupid tone arguments? ps: stone cold posted:nazibeak is a straight up nazi, and i think raw and nfs prefer to be called the dirtbag left NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Jul 26, 2017 |
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Jul 26, 2017 21:47
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NewForumSoftware posted:Tell to that the families of the Yemeni people being starved to death by a Clinton Foundation donor. And again, Haiti.
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Jul 26, 2017 21:49
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See, what this thread has done in many cases, and I'm sure it's in reaction to some  stuff in part, has been basically to imply that any non-CTH voter is scum.To me this is foolhardy if you want to be more than a rump faction. Blaming voters who are somewhat aligned won't convince anyone you're a movement they should join. Now some people are fine with that because they care more about purity politics, but I suspect Bernie Sanders or his successors care more about getting more votes and less about insular bullshit.
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Jul 26, 2017 21:57
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Kokoro Wish posted:And again, Haiti. I think he might mean the Saudis.
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Jul 26, 2017 21:57
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yronic heroism posted:Blaming voters who are somewhat aligned won't convince anyone you're a movement they should join.  how can you even post this after blaming third party voters for trumpyronic heroism posted:Now some people are fine with that because they care more about purity politics, but I suspect Bernie Sanders or his successors care more about getting more votes and less about insular bullshit. bernie is better than 99% of american politicians, hell, he's bordering on good but lol if you think I care about what some zionist mccain hugging 80 year old feels about my voting strategy NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Jul 26, 2017 |
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Jul 26, 2017 21:59
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yronic heroism posted:See, what this thread has done in many cases, and I'm sure it's in reaction to some The way to get more voters is by embracing an ideology and making a principled stand in the interest of the people you are meant to serve, not by becoming a technocratic Moloch determined to be barely better than the opposition, and to offer policies that appeal to no demographic as a result.
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Jul 26, 2017 22:01
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NewForumSoftware posted:Tell to that the families of the Yemeni people being starved to death by a Clinton Foundation donor. your deep, serious concern about rich politicians using slave labor was such that you were willing to say "look, at least Trump never used slaves." you knew Trump did business in Saudi Arabia, you knew Trump's statements on the inferiorities of the people he uses as slave labor both domestic and foreign, you knew that you were defending a person's decision to vote Trump when you said that, and you said it anyway, because you thought the necessity of owning libs justified it. this cannot be coherently reconciled with "no seriously you guys this is more than just a moral cudgel for me." you were JeffersonClaying, you got caught doing it, it was embarrassing for all involved, the trick is to not do it again. quote:ps: unless you are crowsbeak, that's just someone calling you 'alt-left' and disingenuous, not a nazi. please. stop flailing. there is a very simple script here. "I hosed up. I said something stupid. It does not actually represent my views." we have all had to say it at one point or another. we are still here. it is your turn now. that or you can try to argue that Trump-employed slaves shouldn't be the same kind of dealbreaker as Hillary's. your call.
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Jul 26, 2017 22:01
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if all the dem pols just ran on proper platforms we wouldn't have to primary them.
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Jul 26, 2017 22:03
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NewForumSoftware posted:
That's just my personal moral outlook on things. It sure as hell isnt a campaign strategy.
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Jul 26, 2017 22:04
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steinrokkan posted:The way to get more voters is by embracing an ideology and making a principled stand in the interest of the people you are meant to serve, not by becoming a technocratic Moloch determined to be barely better than the opposition, and to offer policies that appeal to no demographic as a result. The strategy of getting more votes by becoming more "pragmatic", "strategic", "data-oriented", "pivotal" or whatever you want to call it has led Democrats to their current state of being an empty husk in need of a reinvention. And you know what is paradoxical? It is these moderates who stand for absolutely nothing who require purity from others in pledging allegiance to their lack of conviction, not the leftists, by and large, who actually have ideological planks to stand on.
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Jul 26, 2017 22:05
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voting for the lesser evil is silly and only enables evil lines in the sand are good, and even the most staunch "lesser evil" advocates make lines in the sand. they just refuse to admit it
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Jul 26, 2017 22:05
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Ze Pollack posted:your deep, serious concern about rich politicians using slave labor was such that you were willing to say "look, at least Trump never used slaves." Firstly, "you knew Trump's statements on the inferiorities of the people he uses as slave labor both domestic and foreign"... no I didn't. I haven't heard him say much about saudi arabian laborers quite frankly. Unless mexicans are building the trump tower there. And furthermore, here's actually what I said NewForumSoftware posted:at least he didn't vote for a slaveowner Note, that doesn't say "look at least Trump never used slaves" And you think I posted this to own libs... its just retarded. I posted it to defend some guy being dogpiled for making a bad vote in 2016. But I mean, if that's your justification for my minority concerns being "pretend" why don't you do everyone a favor and go gently caress yourself.
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Jul 26, 2017 22:06
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going by lesser evil theory i should be a registered republican. being a registered democrat where i live is non-pragmatic idealism and worthless according to lesser-evilism
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Jul 26, 2017 22:07
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NewForumSoftware posted:Firstly, "you knew Trump's statements on the inferiorities of the people he uses as slave labor both domestic and foreign"... no I didn't. I haven't heard him say much about saudi arabian laborers quite frankly. Unless mexicans are building the trump tower there. Jeez... just drop it
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Jul 26, 2017 22:08
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seriously at what point does the pragmatic option become joining the GOP and trying to primary the more conservative members? can you even justify being a Democrat in a red state?steinrokkan posted:Jeez... just drop it nah im actually pretty sick of idiot "let me post like im your dad" posts coming in explaining to me that actually, I'm in fact the racist one and my minority concerns are "pretend" id like to see this guys' broken logic to the end
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Jul 26, 2017 22:08
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Condiv posted:going by lesser evil theory i should be a registered republican. being a registered democrat where i live is non-pragmatic idealism and worthless according to lesser-evilism That tactic worked fine for Rick Perry and most of the people controlling Texas today. I don't begrudge anyone who can't stomach it.
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Jul 26, 2017 22:09
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NewForumSoftware posted:seriously at what point does the pragmatic option become joining the GOP and trying to primary the more conservative members? can you even justify being a Democrat in a red state? Not that I agree with this logic, but I'd say that whether or not the person is in a Democratic district of a Republican state would factor into it
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Jul 26, 2017 22:10
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Manchin is better than better-than-Manchin-but-a-Republican because he's a vote for a Democrat for Senate Majority Leader - a vote in favor of a Democrat controlling what votes make it to the floor of the Senate instead of a Republican. Which would have meant Justice Garland instead of Justice Gorsuch.
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Jul 26, 2017 22:10
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NewForumSoftware posted:Firstly, "you knew Trump's statements on the inferiorities of the people he uses as slave labor both domestic and foreign"... no I didn't. I haven't heard him say much about saudi arabian laborers quite frankly. Unless mexicans are building the trump tower there. it is my justification for saying, in this case, your ostensible concern on behalf of minorities was transparently feigned for a temporary advantage in an argument on the internet. because, in this case, your ostensible concern for minorities was transparently feigned for temporary advantage in an argument on the internet. there is a solution to this problem. do not do so in the future. alternately, you can continue to cry about how dare someone, somewhere, hypothetically, make you feel like you're being called a Nazi for doing so. i do not pretend to know why JeffersonClay does what he does, but evidently persecution complexes are rewarding to some people. you do you.
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Jul 26, 2017 22:14
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Trabisnikof posted:That tactic worked fine for Rick Perry and most of the people controlling Texas today. I don't begrudge anyone who can't stomach it. rick perry isn't exactly a person i aspire to, so no i really can't stomach it. and it probably worked for him cause the dems were sliding rightward at the time, making the transition from dem to republican much easier. the ok dems have managed to regain some seats recently, and they haven't done it by pretending to be republicans
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Jul 26, 2017 22:15
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Manchin is better than better-than-Manchin-but-a-Republican because he's a vote for a Democrat for Senate Majority Leader - a vote in favor of a Democrat controlling what votes make it to the floor of the Senate instead of a Republican. Which would have meant Justice Garland instead of Justice Gorsuch. is he? cause just recently he was a vote to steal the sc nomination from dems for trump
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Jul 26, 2017 22:15
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Democrats obviously need some Senators from red states if they're ever going to have another majority. Which states do we have to abandon as Insufficiently leftist keeping in mind we probably have to do the same with some "blue" neoliberal states too, right?
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Jul 26, 2017 22:16
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the line in the sand for anyone should be universal non-means tested, non-market based healthcare. I'd swallow pretty much anything if a candidate supported that and took no money from insurance/pharma donors.
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Jul 26, 2017 22:16
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Ze Pollack posted:it is my justification for saying, in this case, your ostensible concern on behalf of minorities was transparently feigned for a temporary advantage in an argument on the internet. It actually wasn't but feel free to not believe me and just call my espoused political views as "pretend" because it clashes with whatever fragile worldview you hold. "Ostensible concern" holy poo poo how full of yourself are you? quote:there is a solution to this problem. do not do so in the future. alternately, you can continue to cry about how dare someone, somewhere, hypothetically, make you feel like you're being called a Nazi for doing so. i do not pretend to know why JeffersonClay does what he does, but evidently persecution complexes are rewarding to some people. you do you. Here's a better solution, don't accuse people of having fake concern for minorities without some serious ammo to back it up. I'm not even talking about Braniac5 and stonecolds' stupid "all leftists are nazis" shtick, i'm talking about you coming in here to tell me that actually, I don't care about minorities and my entire posting goal is to win arguments. Then using a post where I'm defending a guy being dogpiled as evidence for that. I'm sorry for not demonizing all Trump voters, that doesn't make my desire for social equality pretend.
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Jul 26, 2017 22:17
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