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PotD is super good for leveling but boy is it goddamn tedious. I can't go two runs without needing to break it up with PvP or an actual dungeon or something. I almost miss the North Thanalan FATE parties.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:01
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So you level inside and then when it's done it gives you 'actual' exp on your character for completion? Gotcha.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:01
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SettingSun posted:PotD is super good for leveling but boy is it goddamn tedious. I can't go two runs without needing to break it up with PvP or an actual dungeon or something. I almost miss the North Thanalan FATE parties. The peaks fate parties are sometimes effective, when you have a large group. potd is tegious as gently caress and I can't imagine grinding it for leveling. more fun in fate parties and pvp
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Jul 27, 2017 21:04
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:So you level inside and then when it's done it gives you 'actual' exp on your character for completion? Gotcha. Yeah, you get POTD-xp for killing things inside and upon completion you get a big chunk for your regular-XP, as with most dungeon stuff.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:05
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Mordiceius posted:Okay. Here's the solution: The question that seems difficult to resolve is what do you do with people who are mid-MSQ (or even mid-quest) when the expansion drops
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Jul 27, 2017 21:16
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Like, I'm really glad they realised that as nice as it is for people who like Tataru to see her character building in the quests where you accompany her as she is utterly useless at everything she does, that poo poo is the epitome of side-quest and it's good that they realised that later on. 2.X era devs would probably have put the HW Scholasticite stuff in the MS and that would be gross.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:19
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cheetah7071 posted:The question that seems difficult to resolve is what do you do with people who are mid-MSQ (or even mid-quest) when the expansion drops Well, with all of the quests, you're essentially shifting the levels down, so it's not like their next quest would be a higher level for them. The easiest solution would be to just wipe the MSQ out of everyone's log if they have the quest active. They have the MSQ hud element now, so people could just very easily just pick up where they left off. For people who were actively playing when the expansion dropped, it would end up being a kind of hiccup in the story and then everything would move smoothly. For players returning, they probably forgot where they were in the story anyway, so they'd just be picking it up and going with it.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:19
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cheetah7071 posted:The question that seems difficult to resolve is what do you do with people who are mid-MSQ (or even mid-quest) when the expansion drops Drop a moon on them.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:19
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KoB posted:Everyone else is standing under the big marker, maybe I should too?  
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Jul 27, 2017 21:20
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Or maybe they don't have to redo all this poo poo because of a few people whining, and instead just look at the skill progression again because it got hosed up by Stormblood and maybe, at most, trim a few of the 2.x quests.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:25
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probably like 1/3rd of new players are going to find the msq anywhere from impossibly daunting to actively unfun. it's probably the most common feedback new players give in this thread.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:26
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Mordiceius posted:Well, with all of the quests, you're essentially shifting the levels down, so it's not like their next quest would be a higher level for them. The easiest solution would be to just wipe the MSQ out of everyone's log if they have the quest active. They have the MSQ hud element now, so people could just very easily just pick up where they left off. I guarantee you there would be nothing smooth about re-wiring the horrific tangle of pointers that likely make up the MSQ's guts in order to shorten and compress it.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:27
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Mordiceius posted:Okay. Here's the solution: I stopped reading your post halfway through because all the quests are good, sorry
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Jul 27, 2017 21:27
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Magil Zeal posted:Or maybe they don't have to redo all this poo poo because of a few people whining, and instead just look at the skill progression again because it got hosed up by Stormblood and maybe, at most, trim a few of the 2.x quests. The thing is that it isn't just skill progression. Even if you had full 70 job skills from level 1 it wouldn't do much to deal with the other problems 2.0 has. I would probably have fewer problems with the smaller skillset if the dungeons were faster or more interesting, but Tam Tara is going to be awful with level 70 skills. If they reworked the dungeons and even just the main quest pacing I think it would do wonders for making it less tedious.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:29
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Low level dungeons would be something like 3x more tolerable if all DPS classes had an AoE and tanks and healers had sufficient CDs to survive big pulls starting at level 15 It wouldn't really help if you have a sprout tank or whatever but it would make me not want to die when leveling my fifth job from 1-50
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Jul 27, 2017 21:30
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:probably like 1/3rd of new players are going to find the msq anywhere from impossibly daunting to actively unfun. it's probably the most common feedback new players give in this thread. And yet somehow some millions of people have struggled on? I mean there's a lot of "not-fun" content to get through to get to the "real" stuff if that's really the common newbie perspective on it. I have to believe that most of the players still playing at level 70 must have found something charming in the first dozen or so hours of the game. The alternative, that they played a game they didn't like for that long, is difficult to consider. Or they paid more money to skip over it. ImpAtom posted:The thing is that it isn't just skill progression. Even if you had full 70 job skills from level 1 it wouldn't do much to deal with the other problems 2.0 has. "Rework skill progression" doesn't mean "give full level 70 skills in Tam-Tara".
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Jul 27, 2017 21:32
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cheetah7071 posted:Low level dungeons would be something like 3x more tolerable if all DPS classes had an AoE and tanks and healers had sufficient CDs to survive big pulls starting at level 15 Yeah, if nothing else, they really need to standardize DPS ability progression. There's no reason Rogue/Ninja should be entirely incapable of any sort of multitarget damage until level 35, and still without a spammable AoE attack until level 42. That's insane. It is definitely possible to shuffle things around so that the class works for new players, but isn't complete hell to play for scaled-down players.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:36
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Magil Zeal posted:And yet somehow some millions of people have struggled on? I mean there's a lot of "not-fun" content to get through to get to the "real" stuff if that's really the common newbie perspective on it. I have to believe that most of the players still playing at level 70 must have found something charming in the first dozen or so hours of the game. The alternative, that they played a game they didn't like for that long, is difficult to consider. I know it doesn't, that was an intentionally hyperbolic example. AoEs and good skills will make them faster but they're still just genuinely not very interesting dungeons and, more critically, I don't think they do a good job of teaching mechanics the game ends up using. There's plenty of room for beginner dungeons but those beginner dungeons should be teaching skills you'll use later on and a lot of them don't or don't do so very well.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:38
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I liked Final Fantasy a lot when I bought it. I liked the game when I was level 1. I like it at level 70. My class of preference didn't really feel like it was complete until 54, but I don't really remember hating any part of the game specifically. Some parts were just better than others. This thread circles around to "ARR sucked hard and then when HW released, we all agreed the game was good" every once in a while, but that's just silly to me.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:43
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ImpAtom posted:I know it doesn't, that was an intentionally hyperbolic example. AoEs and good skills will make them faster but they're still just genuinely not very interesting dungeons and, more critically, I don't think they do a good job of teaching mechanics the game ends up using. There's plenty of room for beginner dungeons but those beginner dungeons should be teaching skills you'll use later on and a lot of them don't or don't do so very well. I actually got Tam-Tara last night when doing LLDR as my white mage and I thought it was actually kind of interesting to actually have to use a toolkit consisting only of Medica and Cure to heal a dungeon instead of what I'm used to, which is a barrage of oGCDs and Regen. Now if I got it over and over again for a week straight I might get annoyed, but I don't think new players will experience that. SonicRulez posted:I liked Final Fantasy a lot when I bought it. I liked the game when I was level 1. I like it at level 70. My class of preference didn't really feel like it was complete until 54, but I don't really remember hating any part of the game specifically. Some parts were just better than others. This thread circles around to "ARR sucked hard and then when HW released, we all agreed the game was good" every once in a while, but that's just silly to me. The mere fact that 2.0 didn't even have duty roulette but restored XIV to the good graces of players means it really can't be as bad as is sometimes suggested by this thread.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:49
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I definitely don't mean to say that 2.0 was bad by any means, or I'd have never made it to 50. I don't have a ton of patience for lovely MMOs no matter how good they get later. But I also don't think people who feel like the early game can be really boring, especially if you pick certain classes, are wrong, and if that can be solved by shuffling some abilities around in level progression, that'd be great.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:52
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cheetah7071 posted:Low level dungeons would be something like 3x more tolerable if all DPS classes had an AoE and tanks and healers had sufficient CDs to survive big pulls starting at level 15 I feel this would help but a hell of a lot of higher level people don't use their tools anyway. Maybe what we could use is a Hall of the Adept with more advanced lessons like
and then include some swag as gently caress reward to get people to actually run it. And then also fix the skill distribution so that low levels aren't two button hell for so long.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:56
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So historically speaking, I love awful classes. How big of a mistake in life is it to play a MCH at this point in the game? I'm having a hard time tracking down a best practice for the job at this point.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:02
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Black Is Black posted:So historically speaking, I love awful classes. How big of a mistake in life is it to play a MCH at this point in the game? I'm having a hard time tracking down a best practice for the job at this point. if youre not trying to pug savage you'll be fne
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Jul 27, 2017 22:03
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Holyshoot posted:if youre not trying to pug savage you'll be fne You'll probably still be fine in O1S and O2S
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Jul 27, 2017 22:04
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Magil Zeal posted:And yet somehow some millions of people have struggled on? I mean there's a lot of "not-fun" content to get through to get to the "real" stuff if that's really the common newbie perspective on it. I have to believe that most of the players still playing at level 70 must have found something charming in the first dozen or so hours of the game. The alternative, that they played a game they didn't like for that long, is difficult to consider. i actively hated almost all of 2.0-.55. 'a lot of people stomached it, so it can't be that bad' isn't exactly a very compelling argument, either. lots of people do poo poo they don't enjoy. the fact I powered through the msq doesn't mean I found it palatable, it just means i chose that option instead of 'be literally unable to play most of the game'.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:05
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Charles Get-Out posted:I don't play WoW so I don't know for sure, but what did WoW do with the xpac stories from the ones before Cataclysm? imagine I posted a picture of a trash can. EDIT: For the 1-60 stuff. There isn't a coherent leveling story anymore because 1-60 all assumes wrath is a "Finished event" then you level through outland/northrend and all of the quests have events happening right in front of your eyes that were already in the distant to not so distant past when you were level 5. It did a lot to make the early leveling experience not horrible, but there's no narrative at all anymore beyond whatever this expansions raid tiers are. Rhymenoserous fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 22:09
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:i actively hated almost all of 2.0-.55. 'a lot of people stomached it, so it can't be that bad' isn't exactly a very compelling argument, either. lots of people do poo poo they don't enjoy. the fact I powered through the msq doesn't mean I found it palatable, it just means i chose that option instead of 'be literally unable to play most of the game'. I have to believe that most people do not play games they do not like, given that games are entertainment and a game that does not entertain is failing its primary purpose. But I'm not just taking that into account retroactively, I'm also taking into account the reactions from people (like, say, the posters in the SA thread) during the launch of 2.0, which was generally "hey this is fun" not "this loving sucks why am I playing this".
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Jul 27, 2017 22:13
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Magil Zeal posted:I have to believe that most people do not play games they do not like, given that games are entertainment and a game that does not entertain is failing its primary purpose. I mean, there's a whole lot of research into Skinner boxes and stuff like that that indicates that yes, people will pour a lot of time into things they don't enjoy.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:15
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cheetah7071 posted:You'll probably still be fine in O1S and O2S pugs will take a mch?
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Jul 27, 2017 22:19
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Holyshoot posted:pugs will take a mch? If they don't they're idiots. You aren't gonna be failing enrage because of class imbalance in those fights, you'll be failing it because of bad players
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Jul 27, 2017 22:20
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Magil Zeal posted:I have to believe that most people do not play games they do not like, given that games are entertainment and a game that does not entertain is failing its primary purpose. Mechanically/visually the game is very strong so it's entirely reasonable to enjoy most aspects of it without enjoying the story. I'm mostly indifferent to the story and if not "everything else" I wouldn't play it.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:22
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Black Is Black posted:So historically speaking, I love awful classes. How big of a mistake in life is it to play a MCH at this point in the game? I'm having a hard time tracking down a best practice for the job at this point. looking at s-e's historical idea of class "balance", by 4.3 machinists will be the top dps in the game, by 4.5 quick reload will give them 20 bullets and have no cooldown
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Jul 27, 2017 22:39
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Magil Zeal posted:And yet somehow some millions of people have struggled on? I mean there's a lot of "not-fun" content to get through to get to the "real" stuff if that's really the common newbie perspective on it. I have to believe that most of the players still playing at level 70 must have found something charming in the first dozen or so hours of the game. The alternative, that they played a game they didn't like for that long, is difficult to consider. "Thing is bad, but other people suffered through it so you should too" is not a particularly healthy way to look at game design. We've literally got a person in this thread saying he's thinking about quitting because of how bad and boring early FFXIV is, and for every one that pipes up there's often hundreds that just silently quit. Games, MMO's specifically need to capture people fast, preferably within the first few days of play. I tried and failed to play this poo poo two-three times because of how lovely and ~devs first wow clone~ a lot of 2.x leveling and post 50 content was. The only thing that made me stick with it was this was the only quality MMO with ANY real raiding game tacked on at the end that wasn't WoW (I'm simply sick of WoW's aesthetic/story/everything). There's a LOT of bad filler questing in this game throughout all the expansions packed into the MSQ itself, and it causes things like that one guy being almost level 30 before he gets to the level 20 chocobo quest. I ran into the same issue and by the time I actually got the loving chocobo I was ready to unlock the battle companion already, and it was frustrating as hell. And when I talk about bad filler quests? I'm talking about all of the "Go talk tot he guy who tells you to go talk to a guy who tells you to talk to yet another guy who has you search in an area for the last guy who tells you to kill 3 bears for their asses which you then return to the last guy who gives them a good sniff RP cookes them into bear rear end steaks which you then hand out to camp guards." Does any of that sound fun? No? You don't think say about 6 of those steps could have been removed? I sure do. Or better yet, getting a call on the RP linkshell to go please see Minfilia who says "Hi go see alphinaud in the rear end crack of the south shroud." Why not just skip the "Go see minfilia step. We've already got a dialogue going on the linkshell, I can skip the go see her in person step entirely. I travel a fair bit for my job, and if my boss told me to drive 60 miles so he could tell me to drive 120 more in person, the conversation would probably end with him being strangled under his desk, so with that in mind it's not just bad gameplay, it's bad storytelling.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:39
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Shy posted:Mechanically/visually the game is very strong so it's entirely reasonable to enjoy most aspects of it without enjoying the story. I'm mostly indifferent to the story and if not "everything else" I wouldn't play it. This. It's not a zero sum game, it's possible to stick with a game despite some aspects of it being horrible. WoW's story is so loving stupid that trying to explain it to someone else makes me degenerate into cursing. Still played it for almost 10 years. I really like this games dungeons and so far most of the raid content, visually it's great and has a super good pretty princess dressup game tacked on. Player housing is also one of those things I grouse about being missing from most MMO's and we have it here.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:43
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If your boss told you to drive to see him in person so he could tell you to drive back over to where you were, you'd do it and then complain about it on social media. Which is basically what this thread does for FFXIV. Classes not working properly is something they should definitely fix. People thought the early game was a slog, so they gave everyone the opportunity to fastforward straight to Ishgard. What more do you want? There's no way for any game to completely trim "All the parts I don't like so there's only the parts I like". That's an insane task.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:52
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I was idling away and have this computer set to do the idle camera thing and this happened help I can't stop laughing at this
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Jul 27, 2017 22:54
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Reiterpallasch posted:looking at s-e's historical idea of class "balance", by 4.3 machinists will be the top dps in the game, by 4.5 quick reload will give them 20 bullets and have no cooldown This man is right. Play what looks fun. SE sees all the complaints, you can be sure of that. And they tend to make up for complaints by overbuffing the hell out of them to get people to chill. It will take a couple months and maybe more than one balance pass to get there.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:57
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SonicRulez posted:If your boss told you to drive to see him in person so he could tell you to drive back over to where you were, you'd do it and then complain about it on social media. I mean stepping out of the hyperbole zone, I wouldn't literally choke him to death, but in similar situations I've had no problems telling a boss "No" to outrageous short notice travel requests to the point where I let him know that any "I really need you to drive to Atlanta on one days notice" requests are automatic "This isn't happening, put it on the schedule for next week." Except in extreme circumstances (One of our branches literally burning down) I ask for the common courtesy of scheduled travel that I can plan my week and family life around, and since I put my foot down, I get that courtesy. Just lol if you roll over for whatever poo poo an employer flings your way. It's bad for you, and in the long run bad for the company because knee jerk reactions to non emergency situations are no way to run any department.
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Jul 27, 2017 23:04
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So what MMO actually has a good newbie experience? Now I'm curious.
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