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It was pretty good, but watching Wonder Woman and War For The Planet of the Apes back to back really makes Wonder Woman's third act ring hollow and makes her third act character arc feel unearned. Whoops, killed the wrong guy even though I used my thirst for war as an excuse, oh well, gotta keep fighting and then hollowly denounce war after my enemies are dead).
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Jul 28, 2017 18:45
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She replaces Ares as a kinder, gentler god of war.
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Jul 28, 2017 19:42
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Well Athena is the goddess of defensive war and protector of small towns. This is an interesting quote from Career Strategies for Women in Academia: Arming Athena quote:As a favored daughter of Zeus, Athena has access to his thunderbolts as well. Born shouting her war cry, she takes an active part in battle, as suggested by her epithet Promachos (fighter in the front lines), yet she is not hated for mindless bloodlust, as is her half-brother Ares. Rather she is champion of defensive war, and savior of cities (Athena Polias at Athens; her icon the Palladium, guarantees the continued existence of Troy). It gives a different perspective to the liberation and destruction of Veld. Mr. Apollo fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Jul 29, 2017 |
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Jul 28, 2017 20:23
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Black Bones posted:She replaces Ares as a kinder, gentler god of war. She's, in a way, the "next" Athena?
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Jul 28, 2017 21:08
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Yeah, both ignore that DCU produced the best (and probably the first truly great) superhero movie and its good sequel. But DCU didn't produce Mystery Men?
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Jul 28, 2017 21:51
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Mr. Apollo posted:Well Athena is the goddess of defensive war and protector of small towns. So, the bourgeoisie goddess of war?
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Jul 29, 2017 01:12
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ImpAtom posted:But DCU didn't produce Mystery Men? It produced Mystery Men 2, which released last year to mixed reviews and great box office.
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Jul 29, 2017 01:24
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Hodgepodge posted:So, the bourgeoisie goddess of war? HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:It produced Mystery Men 2, which released last year to mixed reviews and great box office. 
Mr. Apollo fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Jul 29, 2017 |
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Jul 29, 2017 01:28
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I just saw this movie and I was very happy that Spud was in it. Hopefully the sequel has more Spud.
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Jul 29, 2017 11:31
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Yeah, the mustache was nowhere near as bad as that awful narration Ares was doing when Wonder Woman was gliding around smashing everything. I'm quoting this from last page to remind everyone of how absolutely terrible the mustache was, and while the narration was also bad you could at least say that it was forgettable. The mustache stays with you much longer. Whoever decided that having a loving 60 years old turn of the century british dude as Ares was a good idea should never ever have creative power again in his life. Not even to choose the furniture of his own bedroom.
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Jul 29, 2017 18:07
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Kawabata posted:I'm quoting this from last page to remind everyone of how absolutely terrible the mustache was, and while the narration was also bad you could at least say that it was forgettable. The mustache stays with you much longer. This is why it was good
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Jul 29, 2017 18:13
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Kawabata posted:I'm quoting this from last page to remind everyone of how absolutely terrible the mustache was, and while the narration was also bad you could at least say that it was forgettable. The mustache stays with you much longer. It was the best decision in the movie, actually.
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Jul 29, 2017 18:51
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:It was the best decision in the movie, actually. curiously most critics and viewers absolutely tore the third act to pieces though, which Ares' casting choice was no small part of
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Jul 29, 2017 18:57
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The third act is bad because it's yet another superhero movie that ends with a generic, weightless CGI punchmans fight, not because Ares takes on the aspect of the British Empire. It would in fact be even worse if he looked totally badass, instead of like the tweedy, "civilized" front of one of the most violent and aggressive nation-states the world has ever seen. Most critics and viewers are idiots.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:03
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Frankly I'd have preferred he stay a twiggy elusive wizard type the whole way through. It would've given us a Climactic Final Battle with a different dynamic than we usually get, that probably would've required some sort of cleverness on the part of the hero to win.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:05
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Most critics and viewers are idiots. I understand the sense of the British Empire thing but that is an incredibly out of the blue intellectualistic reason to justify the weirdest casting choice in a movie that's, huh, very straightforward to say the least. But then you poo poo on your own post with that last sentence so I'm having trouble taking you seriously now.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:14
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Kawabata posted:I understand the sense of the British Empire thing but that is an incredibly out of the blue intellectualistic reason to justify the weirdest casting choice in a movie that's, huh, very straightforward to say the least. oh no, whatever will i do
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Jul 29, 2017 19:19
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Having David Thewlis deliver your crappy monologue is in no way a bad decision. Having a crappy monologue, alongside a generic boss battle, is the bad decision.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:23
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The third act is bad because it's yet another superhero movie that ends with a generic, weightless CGI punchmans fight, not because Ares takes on the aspect of the British Empire. It would in fact be even worse if he looked totally badass, instead of like the tweedy, "civilized" front of one of the most violent and aggressive nation-states the world has ever seen. He had the same dumb moustache back in ancient Greece when he was murdering the other gods. Maybe his grand scheme was to poke and prod the human race into total war but also make dumb moustaches fashionable again? He probably split his time between whispering in Doctor Poison's ear and then whispering in barbers' ears.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:24
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:oh no, whatever will i do not poo poo on your own arguments would be a start, but hey it's not the end of the world my friend  Snowglobe of Doom posted:He had the same dumb moustache back in ancient Greece when he was murdering the other gods. Maybe his grand scheme was to poke and prod the human race into total war but also make dumb moustaches fashionable again? He probably split his time between whispering in Doctor Poison's ear and then whispering in barbers' ears. This is an interpretation I'm ok with.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:25
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Kawabata posted:not poo poo on your own arguments would be a start, but hey it's not the end of the world my friend My argument stands on its own, friend. Your inability or unwillingness to engage with it because you dislike something I said is your problem.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:27
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Kawabata posted:I understand the sense of the British Empire thing but that is an incredibly out of the blue intellectualistic reason to justify the weirdest casting choice in a movie that's, huh, very straightforward to say the least. I very much did not come away from Wonder Woman thinking that it needed to be less weird. Ferrinus posted:Frankly I'd have preferred he stay a twiggy elusive wizard type the whole way through. It would've given us a Climactic Final Battle with a different dynamic than we usually get, that probably would've required some sort of cleverness on the part of the hero to win. Yeah, this would have been cool. Let her fight the ghost in the shadows.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:27
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Yeah, when they first unveiled Ares I was actually pleasantly surprised. I'd fully expected the stereotypical old superhuge armoured guy looking to have a boring old punch-out with Diana. Having him instead be a superficially unassuming bureacrat was incredibly appropriate. Both in terms of the general theme of corruption as well as to emphasize the role of World War 1 as something of a turning point in the general conduct and perception of warfare. Wars were no longer decided by heroic generals and kings leading from the front, but rather by politicians and strategists trying to focus an entire nation's capabilities towards this one purpose. And of course it underscored Diana's naivete in looking for a single guy to kill to end the war, when the war simply didn't work that way. Of course, in the end he still turned into a superhuge armoured guy having punch-out with Diana, but I appreciated the attempt. Even then, I kind of enjoyed Ares throwing around tanks and munitions to show his dominion over everything related to warfare.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:29
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:My argument stands on its own, friend. Your inability or unwillingness to engage with it because you dislike something I said is your problem. But I did engage with it. It's a convoluted argument to try and explain a bizarre casting choice in a movie that ends with 2 persons superpunching each other. While the movie is quirkier and more interesting than your average DC product (thanks god) I don't think it's quirky enough for that choice to be appropriate. We can disagree on that, it's alright. However you also think that most viewers and critics are stupid, does that mean that we should listen to Tuxedo Catfish' hot takes on SA instead? Because I feel there's no need to engage with that.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:36
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Kawabata posted:However you also think that most viewers and critics are stupid, does that mean that we should listen to Tuxedo Catfish' hot takes on SA instead? Because I feel there's no need to engage with that. Not at all. You should think for yourself first, and think about ideas you encounter second. I'm sure I'm not even the first person to suggest this reading.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:41
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Not at all. You should think for yourself first, and think about ideas you encounter second. I'm sure I'm not even the first person to suggest this reading. So what's your basis for saying that most critics and viewers are stupid. You seem keen on backing up your opinions, please continue.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:47
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Kawabata posted:So what's your basis for saying that most critics and viewers are stupid. You seem keen on backing up your opinions, please continue. Well, the frequency of complaints from both audiences and professional reviewers about things that are, in fact, good and thematically appropriate is a good place to start.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:53
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Kawabata posted:While the movie is quirkier and more interesting than your average DC product (thanks god) I don't think it's quirky enough for that choice to be appropriate. I'm really curious why you feel this way, because I've found Wonder Woman to be the least quirky of the DC films. Moreover, I don't think anyone is arguing that Ares's depiction was good because it was quirky, but good because of how Ares taking the guise of a British politician ties into Diana's naivety about the nature of the conflict and how it acknowledges Britain's history of violent colonialism. The fact that it is quirky is merely a bonus.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:58
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Ferrinus posted:Frankly I'd have preferred he stay a twiggy elusive wizard type the whole way through. It would've given us a Climactic Final Battle with a different dynamic than we usually get, that probably would've required some sort of cleverness on the part of the hero to win. I get what you're saying and all, but him forging his helmet out of scrap was fuckin' metal. I suppose it could've ended like Tron Legacy, death by loving hug.
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Jul 29, 2017 20:04
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Well, the frequency of complaints from both audiences and professional reviewers about things that are, in fact, good and thematically appropriate is a good place to start. Who has a say on what's thematically appropriate then, if not the majority of the public (uninformed, occasional moviegoers) and/or the majority of critics (experienced moviegoers whose job is to write reviews)? Who do you think movies are for? Schwarzwald posted:I'm really curious why you feel this way, because I've found Wonder Woman to be the least quirky of the DC films. I don't think Ares' depiction would've been a bad idea in a different Wonder Woman movie, but here Diana is literally a gorgeous greek demi-goddess with superpowers, daughter of Zeus and half-sister of Ares. On the other hand, Ares is a big mustache 60 years old british dude that looks like he never misses his 5 pm tea that symbolically represents the British Empire. I feel like it's a bit too out of place. It's not a bad idea per se, quite the opposite, and if he had looked younger/a bit less frail, of if we hadn't seen his massive mustache through the helm it still might've worked for me. EDIT: on why I think it's a quirkier movie, well, Wonder Woman is much less self serious than any other DC movie I can remember, with several scenes involving Chris Pine/Spud/other supporting actors that really feel like a breath of fresh air compared to, say, "Do you bleed?" emo batman questions to superman. I understand some of the fans love the seriousness, but it's really not my thing. Kawabata fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jul 29, 2017 |
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Jul 29, 2017 20:13
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Schwarzwald posted:The fact that it is quirky is merely a bonus. I love it because it turns the scene in London where Diana asks where the war is assuming that's where she'll find Ares while Steve wants to take the notebook to where Ares actually is into a bit of dramatic irony that recalls Greek myths in a cool way.
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Jul 29, 2017 20:18
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Well, the frequency of complaints from both audiences and professional reviewers about things that are, in fact, good and thematically appropriate is a good place to start. Maybe someone can disagree with you that something is good or thematically appropriate without being stupid? I actually agree with your reading, for the record, and I thought it was a good decision, but it's so tiresome how people who claim to want a variety of readings always retreat back to "you don't support my reading you must be stupid!!" ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Jul 29, 2017 |
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Jul 29, 2017 20:20
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wyoming posted:I get what you're saying and all, but him forging his helmet out of scrap was fuckin' metal. I was bothered at first by the idea that the God of War could be defeated by fighting him to the death, but folks here talking about how it's more like Diana replacing him than defeating what he stands for kind of makes it fit. Ares made a war of completely senseless chaos; Diana defeats him as part of her own personal narrative of righteousness vs. evil, and she's half-right -- Ares is a monster -- but it's not the solution to the reality of violence. The next century is going to be full of wars that can be described as a battle against evil, some of them even truthfully, and they're still going to be horrific. Kawabata posted:Who has a say on what's thematically appropriate then, if not the majority of the public (uninformed, occasional moviegoers) and/or the majority of critics (experienced moviegoers whose job is to write reviews)? Who do you think movies are for? Nobody has a uniquely authoritative say, that's not how movies or any other kind of media work. I just don't have very much respect for anyone who gets as far as "huh, they made a weird choice here" or "this made me laugh when I thought they were being serious" and stops there. For audiences I get it -- I was being kind of rude when I said "idiots," it's more that there's not very much reason for it to matter to someone who just wants to be entertained -- but as a critic it's your job.
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Jul 29, 2017 20:28
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ImpAtom posted:Maybe someone can disagree with you that something is good or thematically appropriate without being stupid? I don't disagree with this sentiment necessarily, but I think the context of how this got started is important. Namely, Kawabata appealing to the authority of "most critics and audience" thinking a part of a movie is bad. It's just as tiresome when the "most people agree with me that [this movie] is [good/bad]" card gets played.
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Jul 29, 2017 20:31
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Kawabata posted:I don't think Ares' depiction would've been a bad idea in a different Wonder Woman movie, but here Diana is literally a gorgeous greek demi-goddess with superpowers, daughter of Zeus and half-sister of Ares. On the other hand, Ares is a big mustache 60 years old british dude that looks like he never misses his 5 pm tea that symbolically represents the British Empire. I feel like it's a bit too out of place. It's not a bad idea per se, quite the opposite, and if he had looked younger/a bit less frail, of if we hadn't seen his massive mustache through the helm it still might've worked for me. Yeah someone made a post in one of these threads complaining that superheroes in these films always look like idealised perfect humans and I started typing up a post saying "Diana is a literal demi-goddess, she at least has an excuse because being an idealised perfect being is part of her nature" but then I remembered that Ares is an actual full god but looks like a dork so that argument doesn't fly. 
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Jul 29, 2017 20:43
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Kawabata posted:I don't think Ares' depiction would've been a bad idea in a different Wonder Woman movie, but here Diana is literally a gorgeous greek demi-goddess with superpowers, daughter of Zeus and half-sister of Ares. On the other hand, Ares is a big mustache 60 years old british dude that looks like he never misses his 5 pm tea that symbolically represents the British Empire. I feel like it's a bit too out of place. It's not a bad idea per se, quite the opposite, and if he had looked younger/a bit less frail, of if we hadn't seen his massive mustache through the helm it still might've worked for me. It is entirely out of place with Diana's expectations, and that's the whole point. Diana's wrong about what war is.
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Jul 29, 2017 20:48
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I get it -- I was being kind of rude when I said "idiots," Fair enough. Do read my following posts though, because I didn't stop there at all. I think it's a pretty courageous writing/casting choice that either works on the viewer or doesn't, and on a visceral level it simply didn't click with me or many other audiences/critics. It doesn't ruin the movie either because you definitely see what they were trying to do and it wasn't a stupid idea in a vacuum. It's not as demanding of the viewer as, say, Interstellar or Sunshine endings (both of which absolutely resonated with me) but it's still the kind of plot device that will divide audiences. Guy A. Person posted:I don't disagree with this sentiment necessarily, but I think the context of how this got started is important. Namely, Kawabata appealing to the authority of "most critics and audience" thinking a part of a movie is bad. It's just as tiresome when the "most people agree with me that [this movie] is [good/bad]" card gets played. If the movie being discussed was a Refn/Wheatley movie then I would think twice about bringing the popular opinion into a discussion, but Wonder Woman is a mainstream comic book product so I think the audience's voice has at least some weight here. That said I don't mean to hide behind that argument. Kawabata fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Jul 29, 2017 |
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Jul 29, 2017 20:54
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wyoming posted:I get what you're saying and all, but him forging his helmet out of scrap was fuckin' metal. Yeah, that's my one reservation. Ares doing the Iron Man thing on the spot would hurt to lose.
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Jul 29, 2017 21:04
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Guy A. Person posted:I don't disagree with this sentiment necessarily, but I think the context of how this got started is important. Namely, Kawabata appealing to the authority of "most critics and audience" thinking a part of a movie is bad. It's just as tiresome when the "most people agree with me that [this movie] is [good/bad]" card gets played. Well, I think it's kind of a complex issue. I think something can both be thematically and storyline appropriate and not executed well enough to live up to its potential. This is obviously a place where a lot of people are going to disagree. "This scene looked ridiculous" for example can hit "That was intentional and it's good" "That was unintentional and its bad" "That was intentional but was bad" and even the rare 'it was unintentional but it works." The common consensus is by no means a die-hard or cast-iron measure of the success or failure of a scene but if a lot of people end up laughing or or mocking a scene, even a thematically appropriate one, it probably means there's something worth discussing about how the scene was executed. And that certainly doesn't mean the scene is without value or that it working for you means you're dumb or bad but is interesting in discussing the craftsmanship of a scene or the value of a design decision. And at the end of the day if you genuinely feel it is a good decision then that's awesome and there's nothing wrong with that. God knows we all have things like that. I'll go to bat for parts of Iron Man 3 despite a lot of people genuinely despising it and I don't feel my thoughts on it are wrong. It's writing everyone else off as stupid that doesn't help anything. It basically is a big reason a lot of conversation boils down into people getting angry instead of genuinely bouncing ideas off one another.  (And obviously it goes both ways, people instantly deriding other readings sucks too.)
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Jul 29, 2017 21:10
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Are there two movies about Wonder Woman's creator coming out? A documentary and fictional movie? Can't remember at the moment.
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Jul 29, 2017 23:21
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