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M_Gargantua posted:also... liberal is left, not right. gently caress Actually, historically, being a liberal means, yes, you are liberal socially (though this often panned out to not be the case, still breaking down along race and class lines), but also liberal economically, which is actually a very, very right wing position when broken down as to what it entails. Just look at say, American economic policy and the free trade arrangements made to see how that works for all parties involved.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:20
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Thug Lessons posted:I am not actually a Vice reporter. That was a joke. I am not saying they are all right-wing militants but it is fairly clear at this point that it's violent cops vs. violent protesters. So are you speaking as someone in country right now?
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Jul 31, 2017 07:21
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M_Gargantua posted:Wasn't that IED set against a motorcade of the national police who have beating on the anti government protesters? Why can't liberals use violence? There is nothing inherently pacifist about being liberal That sounds like a piss-poor excuse that someone made up to justify terrorism. But if liberals can use violence then so can leftists, like the government. Also I would not define liberal as left.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:22
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M_Gargantua posted:So are you speaking as someone in country right now? Lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 31, 2017 07:23
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fnox posted:Ok, then lets insult his political record. He was first a deputy, elected after the general elections of 2000, re-elected in the subsequent election (In which the opposition didn't participate), he was named President of the National Assembly, only to be swiftly replaced by his (then concubine, now) wife Cilia Flores. He was instead named Chancellor, which in Venezuela means foreign ministers, despite him only speaking one language and having no qualifications in the field, and despite there being a couple hundred people who were better prepared for the job (But, that's what being Chavez' friend gets you). Chavez, months before dying of cancer and days after winning his 4th reelection, appointed him vice president to prevent Diosdado Cabello from taking power. He then became interim president. Then people voted for him because Chavez told them to. It's extremely common for the US secretary of state and even US ambassadors to be monolingual english speakers so your argument is kinda poo poo on the chancellor front. Most foreign ministry appointments, including embassies, worldwide are political.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:23
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Kokoro Wish posted:Actually, historically, being a liberal means, yes, you are liberal socially (though this often panned out to not be the case, still breaking down along race and class lines), but also liberal economically, which is actually a very, very right wing position when broken down as to what it entails. Just look at say, American economic policy and the free trade arrangements made to see how that works for all parties involved. Well it only took us a few decades to figure out that progressive social programs don't work if you don't have a strong government to make them work. Free hand of the market + liberal gets you into libertarian territory and the economic math doesn't really work out in your favor.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:24
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Why the gently caress does this thread keep feeding the trolls? There's been like a hundred posts today and 90 of them are children in the sandbox going "nuh uh, you are". The information dumps from Chuck and the boots on the ground posts from Labradoodle are interesting, then there's all this white noise drowning all that out.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:25
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Agnosticnixie posted:It's extremely common for the US secretary of state and even US ambassadors to be monolingual english speakers so your argument is kinda poo poo on the chancellor front. Most foreign ministry appointments, including embassies, worldwide are political. Have you ever had a US Ambassador or Secretary of State that did not graduate highschool?
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Jul 31, 2017 07:26
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Schlesische posted:Why the gently caress does this thread keep feeding the trolls? I am not trolling. I would actually prefer Venezuela have a left-wing government rather than a right-wing one, while acknowledging the current government has been terrible.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:26
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fnox posted:Have you ever had a US Ambassador or Secretary of State that did not graduate highschool? No because most of these people are incredibly old money. Their appointment has absolutely nothing to do with education except in the tangential way that they go to the same overrated universities thanks to family connections.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:27
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Thug Lessons posted:I am not trolling. I would actually prefer Venezuela have a left-wing government rather than a right-wing one, while acknowledging the current government has been terrible. You do not acknowledge the current one is terrible, you made fun of poor people eating from garbage bags. You're as loving terrible as the people you claim to denounce. Agnosticnixie posted:No because most of these people are incredibly old money. Have you ever had anyone in a position in the federal government that did not complete free schooling? High school is free in Venezuela too, btw, it has nothing to do with class. It has only gotten horribly expensive nowadays since parents have to smuggle in their kids' uniforms.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:27
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Thug Lessons posted:I believe you'll find you're the one eating from a garbage bag. I literally have back when we were poor in Caracas. We managed to get out of debt when my great uncle have half his business to my mom. I have been poor in Venezuela and I can promise you that the safety net that existed (not even the case any longer) was conditioned into participating in state propaganda and came with a bunch of strings attached. My ex's mother family is very humble, to a degree you can't and will never understand. Her mother died two years ago because she was bounced around from hospital to hospital because they had no beds or medicine to treat her, after the necessary surgery she had they they paid themselves. Since when do people that consider themselves leftists became basically conspiracy theorists? Because I lean left but honestly I want nothing to do with pieces of poo poo of this caliber. "Venezuelans dying and starving is ok as long as it fits my interests". I love how you acuse others of being racist when you have 0 empathy for people going through hell, because for you denying facts and supporting the _idea_ of a socialist government is more important than the loves being ruined. This is when you ignore any argument by saying that the US did something terrible too, somewhere else and at a different time.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:28
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I hope that one day I can receive severe blunt force trauma to the head so I can match Maduro's keen intellect. I also hope that I can become a fat piece of poo poo that refuses international food aid for my fellow citizens. Maduro has singlehandedly solved Venezuela's obesity problem! Vote Maduro!
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Jul 31, 2017 07:28
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fnox posted:You do not acknowledge the current one is terrible, you made fun of poor people eating from garbage bags. You're as loving terrible as the people you claim to denounce. I didn't make fun of poor people for eating from garbage bags, I made fun of you for doing that.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:28
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Thug Lessons posted:I am not trolling. I would actually prefer Venezuela have a left-wing government rather than a right-wing one, while acknowledging the current government has been terrible. gently caress the starving people as long as my my ideology retains a chokehold over the country! Socialismo o muerte!
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Jul 31, 2017 07:29
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fnox posted:You do not acknowledge the current one is terrible, you made fun of poor people eating from garbage bags. You're as loving terrible as the people you claim to denounce. Nobody gives a poo poo about your obsession with his education, hth. Also poor people eat out of garbage in the US too.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:30
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Thug Lessons posted:I didn't make fun of poor people for eating from garbage bags, I made fun of you for doing that. The lack of awareness is frightening.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:30
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M_Gargantua posted:Well it only took us a few decades to figure out that progressive social programs don't work if you don't have a strong government to make them work. Free hand of the market + liberal gets you into libertarian territory and the economic math doesn't really work out in your favor. So you wouldn't say, like some American commentators do, that Venezuela is suffering from too much socialism, but it might actually be suffering from too little, and not organised as well as it might need to be?
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Jul 31, 2017 07:30
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Hugoon Chavez posted:I literally have back when we were poor in Caracas. We managed to get out of debt when my great uncle have half his business to my mom. Okay then I want to explain to me why you believe right-wing government will fix your problems. Because the practical upshot of removing the current government is replacing it with a right-wing one that will cut your social services and oppress you even harder than Maduro, (you certainly won't be seeing these sort of uncontrolled protests under the new regime, LOL!), and I fail to see how this is somehow because they are rightists instead of leftists.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:31
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Agnosticnixie posted:Nobody gives a poo poo about your obsession with his education, hth. My "obsession with education"? Is it really that bad to demand that the people who lead our country be educated to a minimum degree? They didn't eat garbage when Chavez was in power. I wonder what the gently caress happened in the past 5 years. Thug Lessons posted:Okay then I want to explain to me why you believe right-wing government will fix your problems. Because the practical upshot of removing the current government is replacing it with a right-wing one that will cut your social services and oppress you even harder than Maduro, (you certainly won't be seeing these sort of uncontrolled protests under the new regime, LOL!), and I fail to see how this is somehow because they are rightists instead of leftists. How disgusting it is to see someone who struggles for absolutely nothing chide to a Venezuelan for simply wanting better living conditions. So if it's not right or left, then what is it, rear end in a top hat? How do we stop suffering? fnox fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 07:33
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Thug Lessons posted:I am not trolling. I would actually prefer Venezuela have a left-wing government rather than a right-wing one, while acknowledging the current government has been terrible. Have you considered that while, yes, there is the possibility that Venezuela might succumb to a right-wing government, the Venezuelan people deserve the right to decide for themselves what government they get? Have you considered that maybe 7.2millon people saying "we don't want this guy" is probably a few more people than could be reasonably construed as "a neoliberal scam"? I would prefer the Venezuelan people eat; from what I've read in the thread the levels of crime and corruption in the country guarantee that they're decades away from being in a position where having a right- or left-wing government is going to matter to anyone, and that there is still a plurality [I don't know the word for this, majority without being over 50%] of support for Chavismo within Venezuela itself.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:34
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Kokoro Wish posted:So you wouldn't say, like some American commentators do, that Venezuela is suffering from too much socialism, but it might actually be suffering from too little, and not organised as well as it might need to be? Its suffering from Soviet Union syndrome. Where the promise of social benefits to the average person were promises, teased, then slowly melted away as corruption took hold in the government. To me it definitely sounds like there is no socialism there right now, and as evidenced by the election debacles not much democracy either. Thats easily fixable, likely with violence sadly, and restoring social order and a liberal government with a mandate to restore basic needs like food and water to its people and moving to return to modern social programs from there.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:34
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Anyway I am poor and have lost people too but you know, my positions are just not right-wing enough. When my uncle hung himself because no homeless shelter would take him, basically I was not listening to the IMF on solid fiscal policy. When my teeth rotted out and I didn't have any money to fix it or pull them out, I wasn't making sound economic decisions. I now see the error of my ways and am now firmly in support of making Pinochet's Frankenstein corpse President of Venezuela.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:35
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Thug Lessons posted:Anyway I am poor and have lost people too but you know, my positions are just not right-wing enough. When my uncle hung himself because no homeless shelter would take him, basically I was not listening to the IMF on solid fiscal policy. When my teeth rotted out and I didn't have any money to fix it or pull them out, I wasn't making sound economic decisions. I now see the error of my ways and am now firmly in support of making Pinochet's Frankenstein corpse President of Venezuela. How do we fix the crisis rear end in a top hat, who should the people back?
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Jul 31, 2017 07:37
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Thug Lessons posted:Okay then I want to explain to me why you believe right-wing government will fix your problems. Because the practical upshot of removing the current government is replacing it with a right-wing one that will cut your social services and oppress you even harder than Maduro, (you certainly won't be seeing these sort of uncontrolled protests under the new regime, LOL!), and I fail to see how this is somehow because they are rightists instead of leftists. You know this for a fact, "LOL"? Because I rather try with anything else than a band of gangsters stealing the country's money while the people dry up and die between the civil war the government has created and the lack of food they are failing to resolve. Also democracy is kinda good? Can you at least agree that calling legal elections off because they'd lose it is bad? Or do you just not give a single shot about what Venezuelans would want or need and just want to see a bunch of criminals in power just because they pay lip service to the same slogans you do, but don't even follow them? (This is a trick question, I know the answer)
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Jul 31, 2017 07:37
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fnox posted:How do we fix the crisis rear end in a top hat, who should the people back? Well, it's simple. Just put violent rightists in power and everything will solve itself, even though they have no ideas.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:38
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Thug Lessons posted:Well, it's simple. Just put violent rightists in power and everything will solve itself, even though they have no ideas. That's not what I asked rear end in a top hat. What's the solution? Who should they back? You have no idea on how to fix any of this.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:39
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Is it really that difficult for people to realise that the cause of Venezuela's many, many, many problems isn't due to any left/right ideological pissing match but rather due to the fact its run by corrupt shitbags who have literal billions in Swiss bank accounts?
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Jul 31, 2017 07:40
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Hugoon Chavez posted:You know this for a fact, "LOL"? Because I rather try with anything else than a band of gangsters stealing the country's money while the people dry up and die between the civil war the government has created and the lack of food they are failing to resolve. Okay so how does this make the other group of criminals who are right-wingers and set off IEDs to kill cops the solution?
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Jul 31, 2017 07:42
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For real though, not that they'll ever get the chance to, but good luck to anyone trying to unfuck that mess. That pooch was screwed when they handed the state oil company and food distribution networks over to the Army and gave a bunch of military weaponry to loosely organized street gangs & militias.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:42
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Thug Lessons posted:Okay so how does this make the other group of criminals who are right-wingers and set off IEDs to kill cops the solution? Don't ignore me rear end in a top hat, who should they be backing? The boot stomping on their head? Or should they back anything else?
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Jul 31, 2017 07:43
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fnox posted:That's not what I asked rear end in a top hat. What's the solution? Who should they back? Absolutely true. I have no idea how to fix the economy. However I am not claiming I should become the ruler of Venezuela riding on the back of a tide of right-wing violence. If they actually had solutions maybe I would back them.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:43
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Thug Lessons posted:Absolutely true. I have no idea how to fix the economy. However I am not claiming I should become the ruler of Venezuela riding on the back of a tide of right-wing violence. If they actually had solutions maybe I would back them. Do you have ANY solutions whatsoever to the Venezuelan crisis? Do you have ANYTHING helpful to say to Venezuelans to try and get them to stop suffering?
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Jul 31, 2017 07:44
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fnox posted:Do you have ANY solutions whatsoever to the Venezuelan crisis? Do you have ANYTHING helpful to say to Venezuelans to try and get them to stop suffering? Do you have any? All I can see is "give the reins to the right, they will fix it", which is insane.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:45
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fnox posted:Do you have ANY solutions whatsoever to the Venezuelan crisis? Do you have ANYTHING helpful to say to Venezuelans to try and get them to stop suffering? Not starving them with sanctions and then putting them under the thumb of a CIA-backed caudillo sounds like a good start
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Jul 31, 2017 07:45
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Thug Lessons posted:Do you have any? Read my post history. That's not what I asked. I asked you to give me some solutions. Who should the people back? Give me an answer. Agnosticnixie posted:Not starving them with sanctions and then putting them under the thumb of a CIA-backed caudillo sounds like a good start Then maybe the socialist wonderland of Maduro shouldn't be selling oil to the United States in the first place? It's not the sanctions that are starving people, it's corruption and inefficiency. There are no sanctions against oil exports from Venezuela yet, and there hadn't been for the entire duration of Chavez government. So I ask you, why are they starving now? You just want a caudillo you like. I don't want a caudillo, I want a civilian government, I want the military to gently caress off. fnox fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 07:45
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fnox posted:Read my post history. I've already told you I haven't heard any good solutions, but I am certain none of them involve handing the country over to the right wing, which as far as I can tell is the sum total of your "solution".
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Jul 31, 2017 07:48
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Thug Lessons posted:I've already told you I haven't heard any good solutions, but I am certain none of them involve handing the country over to the right wing, which as far as I can tell is the sum total of your "solution". So you have nothing to contribute. You have nothing to say to the Venezuelan people other than that they're idiots because you think they're all right wing paramilitaries, ignoring how badly they're suffering and how much they want a change. You have absolutely nothing of worth to add to the conversation other than any combination of the words "right-wing", "CIA", "IED" or "Trump". So you're doing nothing but stir poo poo for no reason. What the gently caress should they do? Should they hold on to see if there's gonna be another opportunity for change? Should they just get killed for a little while longer and wait for someone you like to come save them?
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Jul 31, 2017 07:49
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fnox posted:You just want a caudillo you like. I don't want a caudillo, I want a civilian government, I want the military to gently caress off. The military isn't going to gently caress off if the government change happens through a Washington-supported regime change.
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Jul 31, 2017 07:50
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Agnosticnixie posted:The military isn't going to gently caress off if the government change happens through a Washington-supported regime change. Then, what should they do? Tell me, what should the Venezuelan people do?
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Jul 31, 2017 07:51
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