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The VICE claim was a joke.
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Jul 31, 2017 11:35
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What happened to the thread  Like someone said about 10 pages ago, the PSUV is claiming an unprecedented victory in yesterday's election with a voter turnout of 41.53% and 8,089.320 votes cast. This is a fictitious number. When Chavez died and Maduro ran against Henrique Capriles in the 2013 election, he got 7,587,579 votes. This was weeks after Chavez looked into a television camera and told Venezuelans, "If something happens to me, vote for Nicolas". At the pinnacle of his popularity, Maduro got 7.6 million votes. In the 2015 parliamentary elections, just two years into Maduro's presidency, the PSUV lost two million votes, with only 5,625,248 votes cast for the party. We know that Maduro and the PSUV are deeply unpopular. Maduro's approval rating ranges from the historically-solid 18-20% range to the very generous 30% mark. We also know that the Constituent Assembly was overwhelmingly unpopular, with the last survey before the vote showing that 72.7% of Venezuelans did not agree with holding it. With all of this in mind, the CNE told us last night that an unpopular president got 8 million people to vote in favour of an unpopular measure. It's obscene. So why the 8 million number? Last night's election result had to be greater than 7.1 million, because that's how many people voted in the opposition-sponsored July 16 plebiscite. No matter what happened yesterday, the PSUV was going to get more than 7.1 million votes. To the people who showed up overnight to liven up the thread, I'll say two quick things: Your binary "right wing/left wing" split is false. When you label ~75% of the country "right wing", you are simultaneously ignoring the wide range of opinions and internal debates inside the opposition, and you're setting yourself up to dismissing the opposition out-of-hand. My advice: take a step back, take off your ideological goggles for two minutes, and ask serious questions about who these 3/4 of the country are. On the other hand, when you label the regime "left wing", you're buying into their propaganda. You're less inclined to ask critical questions about the PSUV just because you've been told that it's a left wing government. Are corrupt mismanagement of the economy and brutal repression of dissent pillars of left-wing ideology? I don't think so, but those are the pillars of the PSUV ideology at the moment. Again, take a step back and ask serious questions. Don't walk into a conversation with your mind already made up. The (I sense perhaps fake?) indignation at the explosion in Altamira yesterday is comical. I can't speak for the poster(s) who were just shocked that after four months of violence and approximately 130 deaths, many of them at the hands of the authorities, some people decided to bundle up all of their fireworks and shoot them at the police who were on their way to possibly murder some protesters. "Police violence is unacceptable everywhere, specially where I live, but not in Venezuela: there, it is acceptable, and I cannot understand how anyone might see violence as an adequate response to it". I don't have time/want to through every post overnight, but this one encapsulates a lot of what is wrong with these arguments: Scent of Worf posted:I too hope the situation improves and for someone much better than Maduro to win the election, but not through CIA intervention and that the people who are burning black Venezuelans alive don't get into power. 1. The whole reason why people have been protesting since April 1 is because we want to be able to vote in general elections and the regime won't let us. The situation is not going to improve via elections as long as Maduro is in power because he won't let us have elections. The regime will not let people vote unless it can guarantee itself a victory. We had two electoral processes cancelled last year and one ignored this year. Look for more electoral processes to be cancelled with the Constituent Assembly. 2.  if you think the choice is between Maduro and "CIA intervention and the people who are burning black Venezuelans alive". I'll do you one better, I think: the choice is between Maduro and Hitler's clone! No, wait: it's between Maduro and... a bunch of wife-beating, child-molesting unrepentant Nazis! You're walking into this conversation with a comically skewed view of what's happening in the country. When you get to decide what the choices are in your head, then the choice is always an easy one to make.
Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 12:31 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 12:29
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A few years ago, myself and other Venezuelans were writing about how Chavez was quickly turning the country to poo poo, while rabid goon tankies defended Chavez. Now years later I find goon tankies defending Maduro, D&D led by a tankie mod, people defending Mao, etc. I am starting to suspect some form of elaborate meta trolling, as nobody can possibly be this stupid.
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Jul 31, 2017 13:02
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The amount of leftists who are ready to excuse any violence with the infulence from alleged CIA and IMF meddling is scary and depressing. The dumbest and most surreal take got to be "apparently blue lives don't matter when they are Venezuelan", with people nodding approvingly at militarized police because they crack skulls in the name of proper ideology.
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Jul 31, 2017 13:03
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Chuck Boone posted:1. The whole reason why people have been protesting since April 1 is because we want to be able to vote in general elections and the regime won't let us. The situation is not going to improve via elections as long as Maduro is in power because he won't let us have elections. The regime will not let people vote unless it can guarantee itself a victory. We had two electoral processes cancelled last year and one ignored this year. Look for more electoral processes to be cancelled with the Constituent Assembly. quote:2. I'm not saying that's the only choice, but it could be if the US gets involved. They're not going to be handing power over to any leftists. They're going to install far-right puppets and they aren't going to make Venezuela any better.
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Jul 31, 2017 13:13
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The question that I really have, other than where the gently caress all these people crawling out from, is well, what now? The government went through with its sham, it's internationally decried as being fraudulent, their claims of 8 million voters cannot be corroborated in any way and are more easily explained as being fake, but in the end it means that the government has in fact created a National Constituent Assembly. That means, legally (Or at least, had they followed the constitution to begin with), we no longer have a president, vice president, legislative branch or judiciary. As of today there no longer is a Venezuelan constitution as this assembly is meant to redact it. It effectively means that as of today we're in an open dictatorship, at the whim of the PSUV elites. At the same time, the opposition has thus far failed to act on the will of the people, as was commanded by the plebiscite. They seem aimless, they seem to lack any sort of leadership at a time where the people need them the most. We need to know what they're planning, what we can do to produce a change in government. They no longer have the crutch of "we want to stop the constituent assembly" to prevent speaking about open rebellion because it has now happened, there's no going back on it. We need them to set up a transitional government, for real this time, we need them to ally with the dissident chavistas, and we need a strategy. Scent of Worf posted:Do you think this might have anything to do with the opposition attacking voting sites and assassinating pro-govt people? Are you that loving stupid to not see that the PSUV elites just want to stay in power and that's why they don't want real elections? We don't want them in power, let us get rid of them or gently caress off. fnox fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 13:14
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fnox posted:The question that I really have, other than where the gently caress all these people crawling out from, is well, what now? The government went through with its sham, it's internationally decried as being fraudulent, their claims of 8 million voters cannot be corroborated in any way and are more easily explained as being fake, but in the end it means that the government has in fact created a National Constituent Assembly. That means, legally (Or at least, had they followed the constitution to begin with), we no longer have a president, vice president, legislative branch or judiciary. As of today there no longer is a Venezuelan constitution as this assembly is meant to redact it. It effectively means that as of today we're in an open dictatorship, at the whim of the PSUV elites. Maduro said over the weekend that the first thing the Constituent Assembly would do is go after the Public Ministry. Since Diosdado Cabello has said that the Assembly would begin to meet within 72 hours of the election, I fully expect attorney general Luisa Ortega Diaz to be out of a job and likely in a prison cell before the end of the week. Beyond that, who knows. The Constituent Assembly rules above every institution in the country. It's going to be a de facto National Assembly/Supreme Court/Executive Office rolled into one. Scent of Worf posted:Do you think this might have anything to do with the opposition attacking voting sites and assassinating pro-govt people? Nope. Read the links that I provided you in my earlier post. The recall referendum was cancelled after about 7 months of the CNE inventing new rules and rules-within-rules designed to let the opposition fail (by contrast, we just had a vote 3 months after Maduro declared that it was going to take place--the CNE can hold elections quickly when it wants to). The CNE never gave a good reason for why it cancelled the regional elections. I don't mean to offend you, but it's clear to me that you get your news from places like TeleSur and Venezeulanalysis. They've skewed your views on what's happening in Venezuela. That'd be like me trying to argue with you about U.S. politics when all I do is watch Fox News and listen to Alex Jones. Scent of Worf posted:I'm not saying that's the only choice, but it could be if the US gets involved. They're not going to be handing power over to any leftists. They're going to install far-right puppets and they aren't going to make Venezuela any better.
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Jul 31, 2017 13:24
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Chuck Boone posted:Nope. Read the links that I provided you in my earlier post. The recall referendum was cancelled after about 7 months of the CNE inventing new rules and rules-within-rules designed to let the opposition fail (by contrast, we just had a vote 3 months after Maduro declared that it was going to take place--the CNE can hold elections quickly when it wants to). The CNE never gave a good reason for why it cancelled the regional elections. Thanks I checked out the links but it doesn't really answer my question. The right wing opposition is attacking voting sites and assassinating pro PSUV people. Why try to ignore the RW extremist elements of the opposition? That's really the point. People seem to want to turn a blind eye to the hosed up poo poo the opposition is doing. Also I don't read Telesur or that other website. quote:Again, no offence, but as a rule of thumb you should try to become informed about a topic before engaging people in debate. Otherwise, asking questions helps.You're squarely in the land of conjecture here. We can speculate about what would happen if the U.S. gets involved, if it doesn't get involved, if Russia gets involved, if it doesn't get involved, etc., but that's all speculation. You're making arguments based on ill-informed speculation. No offense taken. My country has a very long history of forcing regime changes all over world. They almost always install right wing puppets and it almost always turns to complete poo poo. I don't think it's too out there to suggest a CIA coup would almost certainly not end well for Venezuela.
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Jul 31, 2017 13:37
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Scent of Worf posted:Thanks I checked out the links but it doesn't really answer my question. The right wing opposition is attacking voting sites and assassinating pro PSUV people. Why try to ignore the RW extremist elements of the opposition? That's really the point. People seem to want to turn a blind eye to the hosed up poo poo the opposition is doing. Also I don't read Telesur or that other website. We're not turning a blind eye, we're just not completely ignoring that the regime is openly killing people, breaking into houses, burning cars, burning down apartments, arresting protesters without reason, attacking them with rounds that go from ball bearings to live ammunition, all while continuing to rob us blind, all while conditions continue to get worse and worse. Why can't you believe that's real? Why is it so hard to believe that this violent spiral was started by the police overreacting to peaceful protests?
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Jul 31, 2017 13:42
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fnox posted:The question that I really have, other than where the gently caress all these people crawling out from, is well, what now? I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Speaking as a leftist, gently caress Maduro, gently caress Chavez, and gently caress any so-called leftist without a sufficiently skeptical mindset who can't see that the Venezuelan regime has become a self-destructive police state thinly-guised in anti-US, anti-imperialist rhetoric. A pair of shits who've hollowed out their economies, devastated civil society, and are now paying off state police and the national military with their increasingly feeble petrodollars aren't exactly heroes of the left.
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Jul 31, 2017 13:45
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Cugel the Clever posted:For the former question, I'd say they're teens in St. Petersburg being paid to shape opinion in western countries. They sporadically invade the Middle East thread and swamp it with braindead defenses of Assad, too. I wish I was getting paid for this. Would you really rather believe this conspiracy theory than maybe educate yourself about real history and the well-documented practice of US-backed regime change? Privileged western "leftists" in core imperialist nations who systematically support their goverment's military interventions in the third world, and its imperialist exploitation of workers from the periphery, are loving useless to the international working class. They are tools to power who are willing to sell out the rest of the world's oppressed if they think it will make their imperialist masters more likely to throw them a few welfare crumbs. How many times does this have to happen for people to get a clue? The Philippines, Korea, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Vietnam, Cambodia, Haiti, Brazil, Indonesia, Chile, Iraq, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Salvador, Egypt, etc, etc. There's always loving tools ready to go "this time is different" and "I can't support the evil dictator america must do something", people who are so concerned with what the media tells them to be concerned about, but completely ready to look another way and forget how they've been lied to the moment the consequences of the actions they supported become apparent.
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Jul 31, 2017 14:16
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remember when Venezuela had elections and maduro and the PSVU refused to seat the democratically elected government by outright denying representation to the elected candidates from the Amazonian region, denying the indigenous minority their vote just want to remind my fellow leftists that did happen
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Jul 31, 2017 14:24
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Bob le Moche posted:I wish I was getting paid for this. Would you really rather believe this conspiracy theory than maybe educate yourself about real history and the well-documented practice of US-backed regime change? What I want you to do is to give me any other option other than to just continue suffering, and none of you loving tankies can do that. I'm somehow wrong in supporting the opposition, but you don't offer any sort of alternative. Venezuela is currently an open dictatorship, the Venezuelan people are being ruled by a bunch of crooks who would rather die than give up power. What do I do? What can I do as a Venezuelan to restore democracy and take back the future that was seized from me?
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Jul 31, 2017 14:24
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Jesus Christ. The loving tankies. Look you halfwit fucktards - People in South America don't want anything super amazing. They want to be able to actually eat - something people in Venezuela can't do. They want to be able to buy basic goods like toilet paper and shampoo - something people in Venezuela struggle to do. They want to be able to walk out in broad daylight without having their cell phone robbed or being attacked and shot by thieves - something people in Venezuela can't do. You have no loving clue what it's like to not be able to walk around with your cell phone out. Or not to be able to go out at night because you will be robbed or shot. You don't know what it's like to carry some money in your pocket just in case- because if the thieves out there catch you with no money - they'll shoot you. You have no loving clue what life is like in South America. You have no clue what rampant crime looks like. What absolute corruption is. You're trying to defend a corrupt clientelist narcostate run by utter fuckwits who have turned one of the richest countries in South America into a Mad Max state. If you cared a single bit about leftism in any way or form you'd oppose them. Because what they've done is deliver a mortal blow to Leftism throughout South America that will last for a 100 years. And nothing your bitching on internet forums about how the opposition is "Right Wing Paramilitaries" is going to change that. It's loving offensive as a Colombian. I know what a loving right-wing paramilitary is. And the opposition is not rolling around Venezuela doing "Limpieza Social" killing prostitutes, drug dealers, union members, politicians, and anyone who crosses their way. They're not invading small cities in remote departments, seizing control of them, setting up drug shops, and murdering everyone who was connected to the left wing. That's what real paramilitaries do. And it's disgusting and dangerous. But that's not what the opposition in Venezuela is. There isn't a real chance that something like that would occur - because the opposition has no weapons or military branch. But if it were to occur Maduro and his illegitimate, illegal regime would bare the brunt of the blame. If you gave a single gently caress about the people of Venezuela you would oppose it's government. Because every action creates a very strong counter-reaction. And Maduro's actions if continued at this pace can quickly spiral the country into a civil war. You can go on and on about "Imperialism" but you don't know jack poo poo about South America. Chavez funded every single left-wing politician in South America and actively intervened in other countries politics and economies. He funded left-wing radical terrorists all over South America and the world. He allied himself with dangerous nutzoid Dictators from the left-wing to the right-wing including Putin, Ahmedinijad, Assad, Gaddafi, and didn't give a single gently caress about what their politics were as long as it lined his pockets. He placed the power of the government increasingly in the hands of the military, who act as a cover for illegal drug trade and goods smuggling. He created a oligarchy ten times the size of any other oligarchy in South America. Yet you have the gall to go on and on about the opposition or oligarchy's. To be clear - there is a battle going on for the heart and soul of Venezuela. And the officialists are not the ones representing the will of the people nor do they have plans that will help the vast majority of Venezuelans. They have created a dictatorship lead by very powerful rich people who control everything in the country and do everything to benefit only themselves. There is absolutely zero difference between the left-wing regime of Maduro and any right-wing regime that has taken over any South American country when it comes to the terms of having a elite few rich individuals who obtain the vast majority of the wealth the country has created. There is nothing "leftist" about Maduro or his regime. He is simply a corrupt criminal who is incompetent on every level - leading his people to starvation - and ultimately death. He is the Manuel Noriega of South America - and if there is to be any hope for the people of Venezuela he must be stopped at any cost. If you have any problem with that you can go gently caress yourself. Bob le Moche posted:Cambodia, Man that Pol Pot sure was a great dude! 
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Jul 31, 2017 14:27
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also someone repeated the lie that Venezuela is under sanctions as the reason for the "economic war" when the sanctions are targeted ones against corrupt individuals lmao
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Jul 31, 2017 14:28
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Murder rate in Venezuela is ridiculously high. It's over 90 per 100,000 citizens. Around 27,000 Venezuelans are murdered every year. And that rate started spiking in 2010. Mind you back in 1998, the murder rate was one of the lowest in South America. Let's say about 17k of those murders are due to poor policy and lack of prosecution, poor funding for police, and the complete collapse of law caused by the Chavistas. (The number is probably higher - before Chavez coming to power the murder rate was lower than 20 per 100k) . That number alone is 100,000 unnecessary civilian deaths. The toll on the citizens of Venezuela is staggering.
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Jul 31, 2017 14:34
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what the gently caress happen in this thread while I slept
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Jul 31, 2017 14:40
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JailTrump posted:Man that Pol Pot sure was a great dude! I am referring to the coup which led to Pol Pot taking power. The US never opposed Pol Pot and was thankful for his cooperation against Vietnam you ignoramus. It was Vietnam with the support of the Soviet Union who deposed him against the will of the US. This is what I mean when I talked about the historical ignorance of the likes of you.
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Jul 31, 2017 14:42
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Bob le Moche posted:I am referring to the coup which led to Pol Pot taking power. The US never opposed Pol Pot and was thankful for his cooperation against Vietnam you ignoramus. It was Vietnam with the support of the Soviet Union who deposed him against the will of the US. This is what I mean when I talked about the historical ignorance of the likes of you. But why do you hate Pol Pot? He's just a good old socialist like Maduro!
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Jul 31, 2017 14:51
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Bob le Moche posted:Privileged western "leftists" in core imperialist nations <...> are loving useless to the international working class. Until you get rid of US-centered worldview from your tankie brain you should stop at just that.
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Jul 31, 2017 14:59
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Is there a term for when cloistered western leftists- who haven't faced meaningful hardship themselves- demand that foreign people under immense stress follow their social prescriptions? Asking for a friend.
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Jul 31, 2017 15:04
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fnox posted:What I want you to do is to give me any other option other than to just continue suffering, and none of you loving tankies can do that. I'm somehow wrong in supporting the opposition, but you don't offer any sort of alternative. Venezuela is currently an open dictatorship, the Venezuelan people are being ruled by a bunch of crooks who would rather die than give up power. What do I do? What can I do as a Venezuelan to restore democracy and take back the future that was seized from me? My answer is different for Venezuelans and non-Venezuelans. For non-Venezuelans (including me): Oppose US sanctions on Venezuela, oppose any intervention and interference. Educate people about why imperialist governments have a stake in the events in Venezuela, and what they're trying to produce as an outcome. Talk about it, go out and protest, try to put pressure on your politicians and pundits, so that when Donald Trump decides to escalate things, he is not allowed to do it with the total and unconditional support of liberals. Expose the corporate media's bias about the situation, and remind people that it's the same media that lied about Iraqi WMDs and systematically build justification for every US military intervention while remaining silent about their consequences. Call out people when they repeat the media narrative without knowing what they're talking about. Realize that anything the US tries to do will only serve to strengthen Maduro's claims of defending Venezuela against imperialism. This is what you should do because this is where you actually have any power as a non-Venezuelan. Unfortunately you can't do much to influence either Maduro's government or the opposition, and supporting sanctions or your government's imperialist agenda will only create more suffering for the Venezuelan people down the line. For Venezuelans: Don't call for US intervention. You are being tricked and manipulated. I don't claim to know better than you what's good for Venezuela but I do claim to know what the US is after and why they support he opposition, and I can tell you they don't want to save you or to give you democracy. Trust me, this is a trap. Do not make threads on English-language internet platforms with the intent of convincing North Americans that intervention is necessary and that they should support Trump in his actions against Venezuela the rogue state ruled by an evil dictator. Do not accept to write about that and to lend support to the official imperialist narrative as an academic expert in exchange for a PhD from a North American university. Believe me, I would love for the Venezuelan people to be able to rise up and overthrow their government without the revolution being co-opted. I believe every government, socialist or not, should always be in fear of the people rising against it, and that this should always be an option. Unfortunately it is not an option right now. Outside of Venezuela, the opposition is being used by greater powers as justification for a regime change operation that will be brutal, undemocratic, and make things worse for the most vulnerable Venezuelans. When Maduro is overthrown it won't be the will of the people that will be expressed in the outcome because there are other interests involved that are too powerful. It's because I wish this wasn't the case and I wish democracy could be expressed in Venezuela and Venezuelans get the government that best represents them, that I oppose such intervention and am so insistent about the US staying out of it.
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Jul 31, 2017 15:05
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Celexi posted:what the gently caress happen in this thread while I slept The Tankies saw their hammer and sickle bat signal and descended on the thread.
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Jul 31, 2017 15:08
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lol your advice for all sides is literally never stop posting lol
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Jul 31, 2017 15:10
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fnox posted:We're not turning a blind eye, we're just not completely ignoring that the regime is openly killing people, breaking into houses, burning cars, burning down apartments, arresting protesters without reason, attacking them with rounds that go from ball bearings to live ammunition, all while continuing to rob us blind, all while conditions continue to get worse and worse. Why can't you believe that's real? Why is it so hard to believe that this violent spiral was started by the police overreacting to peaceful protests? I'm not denying the cops/military aren't doing those things, but you have to understand. If you ignore the extremists elements in the opposition protests.. well I mean just look at Syria. It could quickly spiral out of control. The US has been dumping millions into the opposition and from the sound of things it seems like they are going to ramp things up. Just look at posters like Saladman posted:I also find it really hard to believe that even a noticeable minority of the protestors are "right-wing". Nor, I imagine, are they "left-wing". They're not fighting for some loving ideology, even the ones using "IEDs" to attack the government's armed forces. They just want the government to collapse. Maybe some of the MUD's politicians are genuinely right wing (but certainly not a majority), but I am especially incredulous that one could pick up any right-wing expressions from the people on the streets This is white washing the opposition protests. The attacks on voting sites, attacks on pro-government people, etc. Those are clearly right wing extremist targets. The Syrian "Moderate rebels" were carrying out such attacks on government forces early on as well. And who was funding them? the CIA. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 31, 2017 15:13
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Bob le Moche posted:For Venezuelans: So your answer to them is, nothing. Everything that you said could be resumed as "do nothing but make sure to complain about the opposition". You're asking Venezuelans to do nothing as their current government is killing and imprisoning them. Bob, this is why you're useless to us. We do not give a single gently caress about your opinion, because what you propose won't stop the police from killing people, it won't stop the famine, it won't bring medicine to those who need it. To any Venezuelan on the ground, your comments are completely loving useless and irrelevant. They don't care about the same things that you care about, and you couldn't possibly imagine what it's like to live in the conditions they're in. Scent of Worf posted:I'm not denying the cops/military aren't doing those things If you're not denying the cops are actively killing people what makes you loving think that somebody throwing fireworks at them is something unexpected and irrational? You're telling me that after more than a hundred days of them shooting at 17 year olds you can't possibly fathom someone would have gone as far as to try and fight back? fnox fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 15:17
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Scent of Worf posted:This is white washing the opposition protests. The attacks on voting sites, attacks on pro-government people, etc. Those are clearly right wing extremist targets. The Syrian "Moderate rebels" were carrying out such attacks on government forces early on as well. And who was funding them? the CIA. Edit for content: the US has a heinous history of stupid interventions, but excusing bloodthirsty dictators by bandying about the specter of the CIA is the wrong answer. Cugel the Clever fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 15:17
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Until Venezuela is a literal smoking wasteland, with enclaves controlled by warring bands of religious lunatics comparing it to Syria is a very, very silly thing to do.
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Jul 31, 2017 15:19
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Scent of Worf posted:Thanks I checked out the links but it doesn't really answer my question. The right wing opposition is attacking voting sites and assassinating pro PSUV people. Why try to ignore the RW extremist elements of the opposition? That's really the point. People seem to want to turn a blind eye to the hosed up poo poo the opposition is doing. Also I don't read Telesur or that other website. We are now talking about two different things. Also, I don't know what your question is. I think that we should separate the two things that we are talking about for the sake of clarity: 1. You made a claim earlier about a hypothetical election where the choice would be Maduro vs. a boogeyman. I pointed out that the whole reason why Venezuelans have been risking getting murdered by the state for the past four months is that Venezuela is no longer a country were free and fair elections take place. I pointed out to you that the regime cancelled two elections it was sure to lose last year, and neither one was cancelled because "the opposition is attacking polling centres and killing PSUV politicians". Those elections were cancelled with a bureaucratic waving of hands. I'd be happy to talk about this more later if you'd like, but for now I'll summarize the point and say that the recall referendum and the regional elections were cancelled last year because the PSUV was going to lose. Plain and simple. The regime also ignored an election that we had on July 16, where 7 million people voted to reject the Constituent Assembly. The regime simply said "We didn't sanction this election, so it's meaningless". Funny thing for a socialist government built on popular support to say, isn't it? 2. As for the claim that the opposition is attacking polling centres and assassinating PSUV politicians, I'll say a couple of things. The first is that we have to differentiate between institutionalized violence and individual violence. By institutionalized violence I mean violence that is part of the fabric of a social structure or an institution. For example, the police exercise institutionalized violence: the use of force to coerce people into committing/not committing acts is part of their job. By individual violence I mean violence that originates in individuals as opposed to social structures and institutions. For example, I would argue that James Hodgkinson's shooting of the Republican congressmen back in June is an example of individual violence. Hodgkinson was not operating under some institutional guidlelines to shoot those congressmen. He acted as an individual. Now, what would you say to me if I said to you, "Hodgkinson was an avid Bernie supporter. Why are you ignoring the left wing's radical violence against the Republicans? Why are you defending Bernie's role in this violence?". Would you not agree that blaming Bernie Sanders or leftists in general for the shooting would be a bit of stretch? And what kind of person would I be for suggesting that because one single individual acting alone committed a violent act, that tens of millions of people and their political leaders are violent murderers by connection? I'd be Sean Hannity, no? The opposition leadership (Henrique Capriles, Freddy Guevara, Julio Borges, Henry Ramos Allup, etc.) have been clear and unequivocal in their repeated calls for peaceful protests, and for a democratic, peaceful solution to the crisis. Remember, people are protesting for the right to vote in general elections. The opposition is confident that it would win any electoral process against Maduro and the PSUV, so it wants elections. The instances of violence that you have pointed at are, I suspect, disputable even on their face. I do know that protesters broke into electoral centres in a few places (mostly in Tachira and Merida states) over the weekend to burn electoral equipment. Is that the violence that you're referring to? Is it really shocking or disappointing to you that, facing life in the waking nightmare that is Maduro's Venezuela, a handful of people might decide to destroy the materials that oppress them? Could you honestly tell us that you might not also be motivated to do the same thing, if you were in the shoes of a desperate Venezuelan who is no longer allowed to vote for his leaders, and whose future is being stolen by a corrupt elite who is dressing up the theft as an election? As for the claim that the opposition is killing PSUV politicians, I believe you are referring to the killing of Jose Felix Pineda over the weekend, who was a candidate for the Constituent Assembly. Pineda was killed in his home, which was then robbed by the assailants. There is no evidence that the opposition conducted or ordered the killing. But let's say that the people who robbed and killed Pineda were opposition supporters. What would your point be? Again, the opposition leadership has been consistently clear in its calls for peaceful protests and for non-violent resistance. We're back in Hodgkinson territory. Pointing to alleged opposition violence is a losing game, too, because we have a regime in power that has killed dozens of peaceful protesters and has nearly 500 political prisoners in jail simply for disagreeing with the government. I'm not ignoring or condoning the acts of violence committed by opposition protesters, but when you have a political leadership that is calling for peace and non-violence, and a handful of cases of violent actions during four months of daily protests, then you can't really say that the leadership is responsible for the violence. I'd also like to point out that the use of the term "right wing opposition" obscures rather than explains. "The opposition" is anyone who does not support the PSUV, which is about 705-80% of the country. We're talking millions of people. There are lots of leftists both inside Venezuela (see: Nicmer Evans and the Socialist Tide party, whose slogan is "Socialism and more revolution") and outside (see: yours truly) who are "the opposition". To suggest that everyone who opposes Maduro is "right wing" is counter-factual, and it doesn't help you to understand the complexity an nuance of the situation. If you already have it set in your mind that this is a struggle between the Fourth Reich in Venezuela and a benevolent socialist leader before you even get into the nitty-gritty of the facts on the ground, then you're not going to learn anything new. You've already decided what the puzzle looks like without even looking at any of the pieces. Scent of Worf posted:I'm not denying the cops/military aren't doing those things, but you have to understand. If you ignore the extremists elements in the opposition protests.. well I mean just look at Syria. It could quickly spiral out of control. The US has been dumping millions into the opposition and from the sound of things it seems like they are going to ramp things up. Scent of Worf posted:No offense taken. My country has a very long history of forcing regime changes all over world. They almost always install right wing puppets and it almost always turns to complete poo poo. I don't think it's too out there to suggest a CIA coup would almost certainly not end well for Venezuela. Bob le Moche posted:For Venezuelans: I don't agree with you on the non-bolded part. I think we're disagreeing on whether the glass is half-full or half-empty. But I cannot in good conscience support a murderous regime made up of a handful of corrupt elites who are interested only in enriching themselves while millions of people suffer and die from easily-preventable diseases, malnutrition, etc. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 15:19
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*Venezuelans protest for over a hundred days, despite brutal repression from state security forces and triple digit fatalities due to state sanctioned violence* Pfftt, dumb idiots, let's show them how to really affect change *logs on to dying comedy website forums*
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Jul 31, 2017 15:22
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Stop bullying poor Maduro, you right wing assholes!
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Jul 31, 2017 15:23
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fnox posted:So your answer to them is, nothing. Everything that you said could be resumed as "do nothing but make sure to complain about the opposition". You're asking Venezuelans to do nothing as their current government is killing and imprisoning them. I'm really sorry. Things really do suck. Things are also going to get even worse after sanctions get imposed, and although the responsibility for that will lie with those who are imposing the sanctions, it will be Maduro's government that will be blamed for it. The US is capable of creating conditions so desperate, so hopeless, that literally anything else would be better than them. That's true! I don't blame Venezuelans for surrendering to imperialism when that happens: it's not like they are given any other choice. But I can try to do as much as I can to prevent my own government from following that path, and from coercing that outcome out of Venezuelans.
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Jul 31, 2017 15:24
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Bob le Moche posted:! I don't blame Venezuelans for surrendering to imperialism lol
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Jul 31, 2017 15:24
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I just wanted to read about what's happening in Venezuela and listen to Venegoons give Venezuelan takes on the subject. That's all I wanted. 
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Jul 31, 2017 15:27
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Thug Lessons posted:I am not trolling. I would actually prefer Venezuela have a left-wing government rather than a right-wing one, while acknowledging the current government has been terrible. Three obvious reasons why this (which is more or less the 'leftist defense of Maduro') is a bad argument: 1. 'The opposition is worse' is a goalpost that has shifted all the way to the moon by this point. It doesn't seem to matter how much worse things get for the average Venezuelan or how much worse the actions of the government are, you can always claim the opposition would be worse because there were right-wing military dictatorships in South America forty years ago. There is no real logic to this argument; it is not any different than claiming that Maduro's government is going to start a campaign of ethnic cleansing eventually because Stalin did bad things back in the day. You know this is a dishonest argument because no one was seriously making these outlandish claims about right-wing opposition to Chavez ten years ago, and he'd survived a coup. It's only as the government becomes increasingly terrible and life becomes increasingly poo poo that any alternative must be made to appear to be demonic beyond the point of belief. 2. Why are the only two alternatives 'a lovely, awful left-wing government' (which to many is only left-wing in name at this point) and 'a lovely, right-wing government'? The conditions in Venezuela are terrible, and have been so for a long time, so why isn't there a left or center-left alternative? And if there is, why aren't people backing it instead of this poo poo government? It's pretty obvious that in these conditions, there is a big space for there to be opposition based on left principles, and if there isn't, and this vacuum has been filled by right-wing parties (which is essentially what you claim), then there's got to be a reason for that. Maybe the reason is that people on the left chose to support this government even though the warning signs were there ages ago, and it was a massive strategic mistake that they now can't find a way out of. Maybe acknowledging that massive fuckup would be a good idea. 3. If there's something we should have all learned after 2016, is that 'we are bad but better than the alternative' is an argument that works less and less the more you reach a certain critical point of despair. Chavismo falling, and some degree of right-wing government afterwards, is pretty much an inevitability at this point, one caused by Chavismo. Talking about who you should or shouldn't support is kind of inmaterial at this point, it's not an intellectual argument we're having when we're talking about a malnourished and depressed population, many of whom have spent the majority or entirety of their conscious lives living under Chavismo.
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Jul 31, 2017 15:28
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Bob le Moche posted:I'm really sorry. Things really do suck. Things are also going to get even worse after sanctions get imposed, and although the responsibility for that will lie with those who are imposing the sanctions, it will be Maduro's government that will be blamed for it. The US is capable of creating conditions so desperate, so hopeless, that literally anything else would be better than them. That's true! I don't blame Venezuelans for surrendering to imperialism when that happens: it's not like they are given any other choice. But I can try to do as much as I can to prevent my own government from following that path, and from coercing that outcome out of Venezuelans. I'm sorry, but no Bob. Things will get worse, and it will be Maduro's fault, it won't be the US fault, things will not get better so long as the PSUV is in power. It is not the fault of some imaginary boogeyman, because food, medicine and pretty much everything disappeared when Maduro was in charge, and it happened because he's an incompetent fuckwit. The only chance we have to improve ANYTHING is to change the government.
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Jul 31, 2017 15:28
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Ofaloaf posted:I just wanted to read about what's happening in Venezuela and listen to Venegoons give Venezuelan takes on the subject. That's all I wanted. Let me tell you what's really happening in South America.... takes long hit on disgustingly elaborate vaping device ...... exhales
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Jul 31, 2017 15:30
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Bob le Moche posted:Don't call for US intervention. You are being tricked and manipulated. I don't claim to know better than you what's good for Venezuela but I do claim to know what the US is after and why they support he opposition, and I can tell you they don't want to save you or to give you democracy. Trust me, this is a trap. Do not make threads on English-language internet platforms with the intent of convincing North Americans that intervention is necessary and that they should support Trump in his actions against Venezuela the rogue state ruled by an evil dictator. Do not accept to write about that and to lend support to the official imperialist narrative as an academic expert in exchange for a PhD from a North American university. Who is doing this?
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Jul 31, 2017 15:31
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Zikan posted:remember when Venezuela had elections and maduro and the PSVU refused to seat the democratically elected government by outright denying representation to the elected candidates from the Amazonian region, denying the indigenous minority their vote And denying the opposition of their earned 2/3 majority in he process. And then there was the court packing, and the attack on the national assembly. Also how many people have security forces and colectivos killed at protests this year?(serious question, it has to be hundreds by now). But anyways I hear if you say "right wing opposition" 3x in a mirror the editor of Jacobin magazine appears and asks you to write an article
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Jul 31, 2017 15:32
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| # ? May 21, 2024 13:01 |
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excuse me that was a bad election because reasons
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Jul 31, 2017 15:32
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