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Medical and professional personnel in IRL militaries have courtesy ranks anyway, at least in the US military. You look at their pay grade and org chart position for their advancement.
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Jul 31, 2017 15:03
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Military ranks in general seem kinda wrong for such an egalitarian society like the Federation. I know why they exist for story/plot purposes but in theory I'd say an organisation like the Federation wouldn't even use ranks. You'd have certain "roles" and obviously some kind of organisational hierarchy (just like any company / state level organisation) but the whole militaristic hierarchy never made sense to me (in regards to internal consistency, at least if we talk about TNG and later on).
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Jul 31, 2017 16:11
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skasion posted:Melora has the Klingon chef who owns A crime that that character wasn't recurring.
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Jul 31, 2017 16:14
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LinkesAuge posted:Military ranks in general seem kinda wrong for such an egalitarian society like the Federation. I know why they exist for story/plot purposes but in theory I'd say an organisation like the Federation wouldn't even use ranks. You'd have certain "roles" and obviously some kind of organisational hierarchy (just like any company / state level organisation) but the whole militaristic hierarchy never made sense to me (in regards to internal consistency, at least if we talk about TNG and later on). Starfleet is a military, no matter how much they want it not to be. Which is yet another reason DS9 is really good, they actually put that forward instead of "We're just here to explore, honest!" *Gets involved in every other cultures poo poo at phaserpoint.* Orv fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 16:19
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LinkesAuge posted:Military ranks in general seem kinda wrong for such an egalitarian society like the Federation. I know why they exist for story/plot purposes but in theory I'd say an organisation like the Federation wouldn't even use ranks. You'd have certain "roles" and obviously some kind of organisational hierarchy (just like any company / state level organisation) but the whole militaristic hierarchy never made sense to me (in regards to internal consistency, at least if we talk about TNG and later on). Nah, a command structure is needed in addition to roles. Starships have (apparently frequent) emergencies and people need to know instantly who is in charge. The scene with Ro, OBrien and Troi and the deal with RED SQUAD RED SQUAD and Nog come to mind (though both might have been mishandled)
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Jul 31, 2017 16:20
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The Bloop posted:Nah, a command structure is needed in addition to roles. Starships have (apparently frequent) emergencies and people need to know instantly who is in charge. That's like saying you need money to know who owns what. It's something that might be true for our society but there is really no reason why a strict military command structure should be mandatory in a society like the Federation where people are supposedly more advanced. I'm not saying that you would abandon any sort of hierarchical structure (that's obviously not possible outside of a hivemind) but the Federation command structure really doesn't fit their mission, it's TOO militaristic. There really is no reason for it outside of the few positions at the top where the "need someone to decide things"-argument holds really much water. LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 16:27
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Even cruise ships have ranked officers and enlisted people. In a situation where people are on a large craft where poo poo can go wrong, there has to be a clear chain of command.
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Jul 31, 2017 16:33
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Also they are quite literally military ships that go to war and defend federation planets, even if that's not always the focus of the show.
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Jul 31, 2017 16:37
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LinkesAuge posted:That's like saying you need money to know who owns what. It's something that might be true for our society but there is really no reason why a strict military command structure should be mandatory in a society like the Federation where people are supposedly more advanced. I'm not saying that you would abandon any sort of hierarchical structure (that's obviously not possible outside of a hivemind) but the Federation command structure really doesn't fit their mission, it's TOO militaristic. There really is no reason for it outside of the few positions at the top where the "need someone to decide things"-argument holds really much water. I mean, is it just the names that bother you? Engineer Third class -> ESC -> EFC ->SHIFT CHIEF -> CHIEF ENGINEER Why is this different in substance from Ensign -> LtJg -> Lt -> LtCmdr etc etc The real reason though is that a starship needs a Captain. The other ranks flow up and down from there for consistency.
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Jul 31, 2017 16:37
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The Bloop posted:I mean, is it just the names that bother you? It's not just names, it's the way people interact with each other, how responsibilities/tasks are handled and how promotions work. Why are there even promotions? Only your qualifications/abilities should matter and your "job" would suit those (they pretty much imply that's how it works in the rest of the Federation). What you and others are writing here now is just repeating the 20th century approach and not really an argument why it should be that way in the context of the Fedeation (it would be like saying they need money because we do and I'd argue it's easier to get rid off strict command structures than it's to abandon money). A really egalitarian society wouldn't care for ranks, the power or the status they bring. Any "command strucutre" would exist just for practical purposes and only when necessary but without the "Yes, Sir", "No, Sir", "I have more power than you do" stuff. You might even have a system of command rotation and at least for some areas a different way to come to decisions (let's say there is a prime directive problem, there is no reason why the Captain alone should have the final word on it, you'd have specialists on board and as long as it's not an immediate situation there is no reason why there wouldn't be some kind of council to decide on such things). I know why it isn't that way in the show, it would be very alien to viewers and hard to create conflict. It's the same reason why we never really see the "civilian" everyday life but considering the length the Federation goes to with its ideals it really doesn't make sense that their "military" is still organised like it's the 20th century. That just assumes people haven't changed and we haven't made any progress in the way of cooperative work which seems like the antithesis to the whole premise of the Federation.
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Jul 31, 2017 17:07
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That's not really the Federation presented in either the shows or the premise. Yes it's utopian (insomuch as utopias ever are) but they're not magically above the need for structure and leadership. Orv fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 17:10
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Well, for one thing, the Federation does not have ranks, Starfleet does. Starfleet is an inherently paramilitary organization. It is, in fact, the actual military of the Federation. It does other things too, exploring and diplomacy and humanitarian missions etc of course, but so have navies since forever. Every officer on board is a soldier in addition to being a specialist in something else - they need to be ready to fight. There are other professionals on board ships like the Enterprise that are teachers or barbers or whatever that don't have ranks and call the officers by their first names and annoy them and whatever. Also, there are plenty of civilian-run science vessels and other ships flying around that don't have ranks. It's also not as though people are drafted into Starfleet.
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Jul 31, 2017 17:21
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When it comes to bad DS9 episodes, much like bad Star Trek episodes in general, they often have a romantic plot or weird romantic element.
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Jul 31, 2017 17:22
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King Hong Kong posted:When it comes to bad DS9 episodes, much like bad Star Trek episodes in general, they often have a romantic plot or weird romantic element. Time's Orphan?
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Jul 31, 2017 17:26
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Honestly, I thought that the D should've been 200 ranked crew and 800 specialists who fit into the science and exploration missions and just get out of the way if shooting starts.
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Jul 31, 2017 17:29
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Believe it or not but real life militaries also do exploration, science, and humanitarian missions.
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Jul 31, 2017 17:34
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Orv posted:That's not really the Federation presented in either the shows or the premise. Yes it's utopian (insomuch as utopias ever are) but they're not magically above the need for structure and leadership. There also seems to be the perspective that any defined authority is necessarily authoritarian, which we've seen to very much not be the case in Starfleet.
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Jul 31, 2017 17:39
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Cojawfee posted:Believe it or not but real life militaries also do exploration, science, and humanitarian missions. As a sidebar. Science is ostensibly Starfleet's primary mission and occupies most of their time. The closest modern equivalent would probably be the NOAA Corps and fleet. The NOAAS Ronald H. Brown, for example, carries 6 commissioned officers, 24 other crew, and 30 regular scientists. And NOAA officers are all scientists too. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 17:39
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MikeJF posted:Honestly, I thought that the D should've been 200 ranked crew and 800 specialists who fit into the science and exploration missions and just get out of the way if shooting starts. David Gerrold was of much the same opinion back when he was involved in pre-production; his novelization of Encounter at Farpoint said the 'operations crew' of the Enterprise-D was probably about the same size as that of Kirk's Enterprise, and when you remember that Kirk had a bunch of scientists and technicians on the ship too, I'd say the numbers are pretty close to what you put there. I think the show broadly assumed something like 800 Starfleet personnel and 200 civilians. EDIT: Honestly one of the nitpicks that sticks out to me is how whenever they give an exact number for how many people are on board, it's always 1,014. It would make way more sense for that number to fluctuate as various specialists/teams/civilians embark or leave (or are killed or born). Of course, it's also ludicrous that a ship that size only carries about a thousand people at any given time. Farmer Crack-Ass fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 17:56
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Of course, it's also ludicrous that a ship that size only carries about a thousand people at any given time. The original plan was 5000, but they figured they wouldn't be able to make it feel like that onscreen. But it's easily justified that as an explorer and mobile starbase, most of her interior is cargo or storage or capability, she was meant to be able to comfortably last many years on her own if need be.
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Jul 31, 2017 18:02
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It's interesting too how the starfleet ranks work since in a real military situation, one's rank as a commissioned officer often has to do with the size of the group you're in command of, yet we don't generally see the Trek cast members commanding many enlisted folks.
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Jul 31, 2017 18:04
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Hoo boy https://twitter.com/WilliamShatner/status/891852127085109249
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Jul 31, 2017 18:12
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William Shatner has and has always had lovely opinions on things, and it's probably a good chunk of why basically nobody else on cast likes him.
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Jul 31, 2017 18:16
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Jul 31, 2017 18:16
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PostNouveau posted:Goo monsters who rule with an iron fist and live in a big cuddle puddle are way more believable than someone wanting to gently caress a Ferengi. Are ferengi dicks orangish like the rest of them. Also does a ferengi dick have tiny ears Asking for a friend
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Jul 31, 2017 19:11
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CharlieWhiskey posted:Are ferengi dicks orangish like the rest of them. Also does a ferengi dick have tiny ears There's actually a chance Roddenberry answered that question
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Jul 31, 2017 20:06
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Some of the civilians we saw working on the Enterprise D: bartenders, barbers, botanists (including Keiko O'Brien), schoolteachers and daycare workers. For whatever reason most of the science teams we saw on the show were in Starfleet uniforms but there were probably at least as many civilian researchers working alongside them. In "Lower Decks" that bartender made a point of it: quote:BEN: Hi, Will.
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Jul 31, 2017 20:55
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I'm willing to buy the military ranks as a concession to viewer comprehension even if it might make more sense if they called the guys on the command track "Directors" or some poo poo. The Engineer Third Class->Second Class->First Class->Shift Lead->Chief Engineer progression seems reasonable. This would've made Wesley a brevet Navigator Third Class or something. It also makes total sense that McCoy would be plateaued at "Chief Ship's Doctor" or some poo poo, medical people are usually on a different track.
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Jul 31, 2017 21:09
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It's not without precedent in the US military for personal with civilian status to be required to wear a uniform while on the job.
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Jul 31, 2017 21:11
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^^^ A lot of people in the reserves or the guard who work as contractors during the week are required to wear their military uniforms.Nessus posted:It also makes total sense that McCoy would be plateaued at "Chief Ship's Doctor" or some poo poo, medical people are usually on a different track. Someone already mentioned it, but medical officers in a real military have honorary ranks. They can only be in charge of other medical personnel. The rank doesn't mean anything to anyone nonmedical aside from saluting.
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Jul 31, 2017 21:14
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Cojawfee posted:Someone already mentioned it, but medical officers in a real military have honorary ranks. They can only be in charge of other medical personnel. The rank doesn't mean anything to anyone nonmedical aside from saluting. Really if this stuff works this way it irons out some of the oddities. Data was probably the Chief of Operations on the Enterprise, and maybe O'Brien went from "Technician" to "Engineer" while getting up ins on DS9. It'd also remove the whole enlisted/officer divide poo poo.
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Jul 31, 2017 21:17
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Cojawfee posted:^^^ A lot of people in the reserves or the guard who work as contractors during the week are required to wear their military uniforms. Yeah, even though they have to maintain reserve status, they are civilian federal employees in their 9-5 M-F job. They have been required to be in uniform at those jobs for several years (not without controversy.) I could see something similar in Starfleet. Anyone who signs on for a tour on a Starfleet vessel for what counts as a primary mission is technically a reservist in Starfleet as they may be called upon for their skills in an emergency situation. While on the job, they would have to wear a uniform.
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Jul 31, 2017 21:24
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Cojawfee posted:Someone already mentioned it, but medical officers in a real military have honorary ranks. They can only be in charge of other medical personnel. The rank doesn't mean anything to anyone nonmedical aside from saluting. Yea, come on, did no else watch M*A*S*H?
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Jul 31, 2017 21:31
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WampaLord posted:Yea, come on, did no else watch M*A*S*H?
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Jul 31, 2017 21:35
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I knew a guy who was a base JAG in Okinawa and he was a colonel.
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Jul 31, 2017 21:50
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I'm reminded of some of the civil servant roles for the Ministry of Defence. Nick Pope was famously Secretariat (Air Staff) 2a, which he said granted him the equivalent rank of Major, despite not actually being military.
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Jul 31, 2017 22:04
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WampaLord posted:Yea, come on, did no else watch M*A*S*H? Not all of the medical personnel on M*A*S*H were draftees with medical ranks. Houlihan and Potter, at least, were career. Also, everyone else drat well took orders from them from time to time, and they had a draftee as a CO so I'm not sure that's the best example
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Jul 31, 2017 22:22
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The Bloop posted:Not all of the medical personnel on M*A*S*H were draftees with medical ranks. Houlihan and Potter, at least, were career. Also, everyone else drat well took orders from them from time to time, and they had a draftee as a CO so I'm not sure that's the best example I was more using it as an example of "Medical personnel get military ranks" like Captain Hawkeye.
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Jul 31, 2017 22:23
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WampaLord posted:I was more using it as an example of "Medical personnel get military ranks" like Captain Hawkeye. And it was a "real" rank, so he could order around the grunts that do all the work, not just other medical personnel!
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Jul 31, 2017 22:41
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The Bloop posted:And it was a "real" rank, so he could order around the grunts that do all the work, not just other medical personnel! I...know? Are we arguing about something?
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Jul 31, 2017 22:43
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