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Fabricated posted:Endeavor is such a terrible person I wouldn't want to learn anything from him, regardless of how effective he is. His motivations drive his methods and if heroism is supposed to mean something more than being good at beating up villains and rescuing people from disasters anything you pick up from observing him is tainted right at the outset. Simply being around the guy is placing yourself in a toxic environment. I guess I disagree with this entirely. I think that it's still possible for lovely, terrible people to accomplish things that can really help people and society and that ideological purity isn't a requirement for someone to be worth learning from, especially when we're talking about a field of work that is directly responsible for the safety of innocent lives. Endeavor is an awful, terrible person on a personal level who has caused untold suffering to his family and deserves censure for it, but his methodology and approach to being a hero has presumably saved a lot of lives and diverted a lot of disasters because he's considered a more effective hero than literally any other hero in the system except for All Might himself. Hell, in this encounter alone, Endeavor's presence saved the lives of multiple heroes who would have died horribly to Nomus, in addition to any bystanders or additional heroes who would have been hurt by the Nomus continuing to rampage and Stain potentially escaping because the heroes who arrived to help round him up would have instead been busy being loving dead. Shoto himself acknowledges that while he hates his dad for what he's done and will probably never forgive him, there are a lot of useful things that he can learn from Endeavor's vast well of experience. That doesn't mean he needs to copy Endeavor's motivations in the slightest. He can take lessons about how Endeavor takes command of the situation, prioritizes threats, and puts the safety of bystanders first, for example, because none of those things require him to share Endeavor's toxic "GOTTA BEAT ALL MIGHT" motivation.
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Aug 2, 2017 15:35
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Endeavor is a bad dad who happens to be an excellent hero. He could've just as easily use his quirk as a villain, and more than likely be just as powerful as he is as a hero. For all of his complexes regarding All Might, he's still an incredibly proficient hero that'll do the right thing for (arguably) right reasons. I'm glad they put a bit more of a spotlight in Hosu in the anime than they did in the manga, because it shows you that he's really deserving of the number 2 title, regardless of what you think of him personally.
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Aug 2, 2017 15:45
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Spaghetti Stain and Shaggy Handjob are both symptoms of the same issue with the "everyone lean on All Might" system, but they're also both assholes who kill people.
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Aug 2, 2017 15:52
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Kanos posted:Endeavor's toxic "GOTTA BEAT ALL MIGHT" motivation. And this, right here, is why Stain considers him a fake. Endeavor, much like Bakugo, wants to be number 1. That's it. That's his raison d'etre. His entire motivation is "to be better than All Might." Focusing on surpassing All Might is not heroic. It doesn't matter if he's how good he is at getting results, because he's doing it for the wrong reasons. You can be a hero that is All Might-levels of good at saving people, fighting crime and beating incredibly powerful villains but if you were solely interested in the financial gain coming from it, you would still be a fake in Stain's eyes.
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Aug 2, 2017 15:59
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Fabricated posted:Endeavor is such a terrible person I wouldn't want to learn anything from him, regardless of how effective he is. His motivations drive his methods and if heroism is supposed to mean something more than being good at beating up villains and rescuing people from disasters anything you pick up from observing him is tainted right at the outset. Simply being around the guy is placing yourself in a toxic environment. But if Todoroki is going to become the great hero he wants to be, not learning from the #2 guy is shooting himself in the foot, and says that he'd rather continue ignoring his father than become a better hero. Todoroki has reconnected with his mother, earned her blessing, love and permission to use the fire side that she hates and can now look at Endeavor without hate for the man or himself and sees him primarily as a useful tool he can use, a stepping stone so maybe one day he can become what he wants to become. He's still a good boy, dropping everything to check on his friend with zero idea why. There isn't much more that Endeavors toxic personality can do to Todoroki that it hasn't done for the last fifteen years. also I know Endeavor doesn't care about them but his other siblings should really get out of that house, his adult sister being scared about Todoroki going to the hospital by himself is real sad and unsettling Expect My Mom fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Aug 2, 2017 |
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Aug 2, 2017 16:00
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Dragonatrix posted:And this, right here, is why Stain considers him a fake. Endeavor, much like Bakugo, wants to be number 1. That's it. That's his raison d'etre. His entire motivation is "to be better than All Might." Focusing on surpassing All Might is not heroic. And that's why I think Stain's entire philosophy is pretty much total garbage. If I'm going to get stabbed by a junkie in an alleyway and a hero swings in and saves my life, I'm not really concerned about if they're motivated by the desire for big endorsement dollars or if they're a really big jerk. If a hero saves a bus load of people from careening off a bridge, I don't give a poo poo if they're thinking about the modeling deal they had to skip to do it. They're a hero because they willingly put themselves in danger to save lives, even if they're gaining something from it or aren't doing it for ideologically pure reasons. In real life, police or firemen who put themselves in serious or mortal danger to rescue other people are often hailed as heroes despite that literally being their career, and they deserve the accolades.
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Aug 2, 2017 16:24
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Kanos posted:And that's why I think Stain's entire philosophy is pretty much total garbage. If I'm going to get stabbed by a junkie in an alleyway and a hero swings in and saves my life, I'm not really concerned about if they're motivated by the desire for big endorsement dollars or if they're a really big jerk. If a hero saves a bus load of people from careening off a bridge, I don't give a poo poo if they're thinking about the modeling deal they had to skip to do it. They're a hero because they willingly put themselves in danger to save lives, even if they're gaining something from it or aren't doing it for ideologically pure reasons. In real life, police or firemen who put themselves in serious or mortal danger to rescue other people are often hailed as heroes despite that literally being their career, and they deserve the accolades. I agree to an extent, but should someone who viciously beats and abuses his wife and kids be revered only one step down from All-Might? A system where you can use your wealth and fame to keep that sort of stuff a secret and avoid the consequences of your own actions is flawed. I would not be at all surprised is the Police and Government know about or have gotten hints of the sort of stuff Endeavor does at home and don't interfere or investigate because it's a "family matter" and because they don't want to piss off someone as powerful as Endeavor, Shouto and his mother written off as necessary collateral damage. I guess it depends on how much the MHA universe Japanese government differs from the real life version. But yeah, Stain's ideology is untenable extremism, it demands that everyone be an impossible paragon. Stain's ideology is rooted in real problems with the MHA world, but it does not present any workable solution for those problems, so he just lashes out in anger.
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Aug 2, 2017 17:32
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I unironically think that as he's written, Stain would not be on his crusade if the job had any title but "hero". He's absolutely obsessed with the purest definition of it.
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Aug 2, 2017 17:45
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Fabricated posted:I unironically think that as he's written, Stain would not be on his crusade if the job had any title but "hero". He's absolutely obsessed with the purest definition of it. That is because the Hero system in MHA is symbolic of a more general social structure. It's a vehicle from which parallels can be drawn.
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Aug 2, 2017 18:14
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:I agree to an extent, but should someone who viciously beats and abuses his wife and kids be revered only one step down from All-Might? A system where you can use your wealth and fame to keep that sort of stuff a secret and avoid the consequences of your own actions is flawed. I would not be at all surprised is the Police and Government know about or have gotten hints of the sort of stuff Endeavor does at home and don't interfere or investigate because it's a "family matter" and because they don't want to piss off someone as powerful as Endeavor, Shouto and his mother written off as necessary collateral damage. I guess it depends on how much the MHA universe Japanese government differs from the real life version. Endeavor's abuse looks to be emotional, rather than physical, so it's pretty hard for outsiders to know about it. The hospital staff at the place where Shoto's mom was placed were probably told "she had a breakdown and poured boiling water on our son while screaming about hating him", for example. I don't imagine the general public is aware of Endeavor's family stuff on any level, or else he would be substantially less popular than he is. Deku, who is a huge hero otaku who makes it his business to study and take notes on every hero he can, had absolutely no idea about any of it until Shoto infodumped him. Hell, I don't think that other pro heroes are aware of what he did; All Might doesn't seem to know.
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Aug 2, 2017 18:32
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One of the first of Todoroki's memories we see is his mom being hit by Endeavor. We've also seen a memory where he punched him in the stomach so hard that he puked, and still insisted that he stand up and fight back. Endeavor for sure is physically abusive to at least Todoroki and his mom.
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Aug 2, 2017 18:38
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Kanos posted:Endeavor's abuse looks to be emotional, rather than physical, so it's pretty hard for outsiders to know about it. The hospital staff at the place where Shoto's mom was placed were probably told "she had a breakdown and poured boiling water on our son while screaming about hating him", for example. We literally saw him punching Shouto in the stomach as a 5 year old and then hitting his wife when she tried to stop him. We saw Shouto's mom talking to her mother about what was going on, and her mother would have to be seriously dense as hell not to notice even if Shouto's mom was being indirect and not going into detail, the only reason it would not get out from her side of the family is either that her parents don't care about her or that they were far too afraid of Endeavour to bring his abuse of their daughter to light. The doctors and therapists at the hospital she was admitted to would need to be monumentally incompetent to not see the very obvious signs of abuse and any competent psychologist would not dismiss the things she probably told them out of hand as delusion. Considering that the doctors would be aware of at least the possibility of child abuse they would have a duty to go to the police to get an investigation started, that does not appear to have happened either because the hospital and doctors failed to notify the police or because they did and the police chose not to look into the matter.
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Aug 2, 2017 18:54
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:We literally saw him punching Shouto in the stomach as a 5 year old and then hitting his wife when she tried to stop him. We saw Shouto's mom talking to her mother about what was going on, and her mother would have to be seriously dense as hell not to notice even if Shouto's mom was being indirect and not going into detail, the only reason it would not get out from her side of the family is either that her parents don't care about her or that they were far too afraid of Endeavour to bring his abuse of their daughter to light. The doctors and therapists at the hospital she was admitted to would need to be monumentally incompetent to not see the very obvious signs of abuse and any competent psychologist would not dismiss the things she probably told them out of hand as delusion. Considering that the doctors would be aware of at least the possibility of child abuse they would have a duty to go to the police to get an investigation started, that does not appear to have happened either because the hospital and doctors failed to notify the police or because they did and the police chose not to look into the matter. The Mom's family married her off to Endeavor for money and stuff.
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Aug 2, 2017 19:10
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SpacePig posted:One of the first of Todoroki's memories we see is his mom being hit by Endeavor. We've also seen a memory where he punched him in the stomach so hard that he puked, and still insisted that he stand up and fight back. Endeavor for sure is physically abusive to at least Todoroki and his mom. AVeryLargeRadish posted:We literally saw him punching Shouto in the stomach as a 5 year old and then hitting his wife when she tried to stop him. We saw Shouto's mom talking to her mother about what was going on, and her mother would have to be seriously dense as hell not to notice even if Shouto's mom was being indirect and not going into detail, the only reason it would not get out from her side of the family is either that her parents don't care about her or that they were far too afraid of Endeavour to bring his abuse of their daughter to light. The doctors and therapists at the hospital she was admitted to would need to be monumentally incompetent to not see the very obvious signs of abuse and any competent psychologist would not dismiss the things she probably told them out of hand as delusion. Considering that the doctors would be aware of at least the possibility of child abuse they would have a duty to go to the police to get an investigation started, that does not appear to have happened either because the hospital and doctors failed to notify the police or because they did and the police chose not to look into the matter. I should be more specific, I think; Endeavor is absolutely hugely abusive and I'm not trying to deny that, but he's not physically abusive in a way that is easily visible to outsiders. Him roughing up Shoto could pretty easily be passed off as "training" and be believed, and since he wasn't really beating his wife black and blue it would be pretty easy for Endeavor to simply shake his head and point to the fact that she burnt the poo poo out of their tiny child with boiling water to cast a large amount of doubt on her accusations. Mrs. Endeavor's own family pretty obviously doesn't give much of a poo poo about her considering that they effectively sold her into a loveless quirk marriage in the first place, so I really doubt that her parents would risk rocking the boat in that way because if they were really concerned about her welfare and happiness they wouldn't have put her in this position to begin with. Given that she's been living in a hospital for what appears to be years at this point(since she was put there when Shoto was a child and he's a teenager now), it's probably not something anyone is actively investigating anymore.
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Aug 2, 2017 19:11
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SpacePig posted:One of the first of Todoroki's memories we see is his mom being hit by Endeavor. We've also seen a memory where he punched him in the stomach so hard that he puked, and still insisted that he stand up and fight back. Endeavor for sure is physically abusive to at least Todoroki and his mom. To be exact that was the same scene. He was trying to train Shoto to surpass All Might at the bright age of 5 and one of the methods he thought of was Sparring. Which as his mom pointed out was horrible as he is only 5, and he knocks her out of the way when she tries to stop him. With the rest of his kids they seem to have more normal lives cause Endeavor did not have any big expectations for them. Kanos posted:Him roughing up Shoto could pretty easily be passed off as "training" and be believed, This is actually the case. It was training. Just too brutal and too early in Shoto's life for him to be doing stuff like that. Lets not forget UA has fights as well. Endeavor is probably convinced in his own head that that stuff helped Shoto a lot. One of his explanations for Shoto's behavior is just that he is in his rebellious phase and will get over it. So he probably can't even see things wrong with those actions. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Aug 2, 2017 |
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Aug 2, 2017 19:13
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EmmyOk I dunno why you felt you had to quote that scene when I just quoted that scene verbatim, but okay coolEmmyOk posted:There is a small bit of ambiguity if you wanted to argue it but really it's very clear that he's talking about a separate fight to the Toxic Chainsaw one. Cool? Zaphod42 posted:I'm not misremembering; I misinterpreted. I see now my mistake. Like yeah I already admitted this. quote:Has that man... started to move again... Anime sure loves to play the pronoun game. I wonder if it sounds more natural in Japanese. "I'm going to use THAT technique!" just sounds goofy in English. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Aug 2, 2017 |
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Aug 2, 2017 19:30
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CharlestheHammer posted:Honestly Stain is cool but he doesn't have an overarching idea just half backed tropes crunched together. stain is staying pure to his 90s roots
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Aug 2, 2017 19:49
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Endeavor is a real piece of work and a terrible person; an abusive husband and father who shouldn't be held up as a role model. Stain is using his (justified?) hatred of dudes like Endeavor to murder totally normal people. He's no better than Shigaraki; he's just better at lying to himself about it. His expectation that heroes have to be like All Might is absurd. No one can be like All Might. The very first thing that happens in this story is we find out that All Might isn't All Might; as the story has gone on it's progressively stripped the layers of mythology from Toshinori Yagi, revealing the man underneath the impossible ideal. Stain is delusional. CharlestheHammer posted:I don't really think the native was hunting him, and Stain had to start somewhere, bore he was known. I disagree. I think the point is that it doesn't fit together, that villians "but they have a code" are just villians. It doesn't matter if Stain is right about the flaws of society or not; his response is dangerously wrong. I enjoy that MHA doesn't seem to truck with the idea that 'oh, it's your MOTIVATIONS that are the important part'; what you do is what you do. It's very fresh, especially compared to a lot of anime where any villian, no matter how awful his actions, can be redeemed if they just have a tragic enough backstory and some kind of 'pure' motivation.
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Aug 2, 2017 20:12
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I hope not that is really dumb.
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Aug 2, 2017 20:14
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CharlestheHammer posted:I hope not that is really dumb. Anime... is for dorks.
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Aug 2, 2017 20:15
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Dragonatrix posted:And this, right here, is why Stain considers him a fake. Endeavor, much like Bakugo, wants to be number 1. That's it. That's his raison d'etre. His entire motivation is "to be better than All Might." Focusing on surpassing All Might is not heroic. gently caress, I never thought about it before, but now I wish Bakugo had gone to intern with Endeavor. Bakugo could be like the son he never had. Also, it doesn't seem like there's much incentive for being a villain in this society? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like most of them are disenfranchised outliers who can't function in society and have no other choice. There are probably a couple obvious exceptions, Kurogiri comes to mind, but with the overwhelming hero population, it seems tough to make a go of it.
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Aug 2, 2017 20:16
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Dragonatrix posted:And this, right here, is why Stain considers him a fake. Endeavor, much like Bakugo, wants to be number 1. That's it. That's his raison d'etre. His entire motivation is "to be better than All Might." Focusing on surpassing All Might is not heroic. Yeah this is definitely a theme of the show. The argument between Endeavor and All Might in the hallway during the tournament was basically meant to just say "All Might is a hero for the right reasons, Endeavor is a hero for the wrong reasons" But like I said before, neither Ingenium or Tenya are really doing it for the money. They're part of a rich family, yeah, and so Stain sees them that way, but in reality Ingenium does seem to just want to be a hero and inspire people. In fact, we saw during one scene that he's even pretty humble; he used to think of himself as a pretty bad hero who did okay because so many people helped him out. He's nothing like Endeavor who just wants to be the best to be the best. And even moreso, Tenya's reason for attacking Stain was his love for his brother and his being so upset that a good hero could no longer help people because of Stain. That in itself is actually a noble hero quality, even though stain sees it as petty "revenge", stain himself is a villain no matter how you slice it and stopping him is heroic in itself.
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Aug 2, 2017 20:28
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Zaphod42 posted:Yeah this is definitely a theme of the show. That doesn't matter if he's there to inspire people if he's a type of hero like what was shown in the first episode. Someone who doesn't put their life on the line. Someone who waits for a 'better' hero. Someone who doesn't go PLUS ULTRA.
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Aug 2, 2017 21:20
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Kild posted:That doesn't matter if he's there to inspire people if he's a type of hero like what was shown in the first episode. Someone who doesn't put their life on the line. Someone who waits for a 'better' hero. Someone who doesn't go PLUS ULTRA. Yeah but neither Ingenium nor Tenya "waited for someone better" so I don't get what you're saying. They both went all-out on Stain, and Tenya even told Deku to run and leave him.
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Aug 2, 2017 21:23
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I wonder what sort of products Ingenium licences his image out to. Running shoes? Energy drinks?
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Aug 2, 2017 21:25
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Crasical posted:I wonder what sort of products Ingenium licences his image out to. Running shoes? Energy drinks? poo poo, probably car engines and F1 cars and poo poo. I'd love to see an All Might livery for a racing car 
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Aug 2, 2017 21:27
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Zaphod42 posted:Yeah but neither Ingenium nor Tenya "waited for someone better" so I don't get what you're saying. They both went all-out on Stain, and Tenya even told Deku to run and leave him. Uh we don't know that about Ingenium and Tenya was in it solely for revenge and wasn't going to even be targeted by Stain because he's a child. And they both lost so they're not good enough.
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Aug 2, 2017 21:30
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Kild posted:Uh we don't know that about Ingenium and Tenya was in it solely for revenge and wasn't going to even be targeted by Stain because he's a child. And they both lost so they're not good enough. To be fair, in a one on one situation anyone short of All Might would probably lose to Stain. Hell, All Might might lose to Stain if Stain attacked him from ambush or All Might tried to pull his punches too much; all it takes is one nick and you're dead.
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Aug 2, 2017 21:45
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Kild posted:Uh we don't know that about Ingenium and Tenya was in it solely for revenge and wasn't going to even be targeted by Stain because he's a child. And they both lost so they're not good enough. That's my whole point though, that's what I keep saying. They're bad because they lost; not because of any real ideological reason. That's it. I've literally posted that like 3 times now dude, you don't have to tell me. Tenya wasn't targeted by Stain but Stain was going to kill him unlike Deku. That's significant.
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Aug 2, 2017 21:56
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Zaphod42 posted:Tenya wasn't targeted by Stain but Stain was going to kill him unlike Deku. That's significant. He wasn't going to kill Tenya until Tenya said that he wanted revenge. Stain told him to gently caress off prior to that.
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Aug 2, 2017 22:10
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Incredible imo
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Aug 2, 2017 22:28
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Stain talks a good talk, but in the end he's nothing more than another piece of poo poo villain looking to justify his own hosed up bloodlust. Nothing we saw from Ingenium indicates that he's out for money or glory or fame. He wanted to take Stain down because Stain was a threat to people's lives but Stain took him out just the same, spouting all that bullshit about how he was right to have done it. Would his acceptance of All Might have lasted if All Might was the one who came to take him down?
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Aug 2, 2017 23:04
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Slime posted:Stain talks a good talk, but in the end he's nothing more than another piece of poo poo villain looking to justify his own hosed up bloodlust. Nothing we saw from Ingenium indicates that he's out for money or glory or fame. He wanted to take Stain down because Stain was a threat to people's lives but Stain took him out just the same, spouting all that bullshit about how he was right to have done it. Would his acceptance of All Might have lasted if All Might was the one who came to take him down? Yes? Stain says the only person that's allowed to kill him is All Might.
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Aug 2, 2017 23:05
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Kild posted:Yes? Stain says the only person that's allowed to kill him is All Might. What I mean is, would that sentiment actually survive when the chips are down and All Might is standing there telling him he's an awful, terrible, horrible person?
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Aug 2, 2017 23:08
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Slime posted:What I mean is, would that sentiment actually survive when the chips are down and All Might is standing there telling him he's an awful, terrible, horrible person? I could see that going either way, it depends on whether or not he is deluded enough to think that All-Might would agree with him.
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Aug 2, 2017 23:11
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EmmyOk posted:Incredible imo That rules.
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Aug 2, 2017 23:32
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By saying that All Might is the only one allowed to kill him, he clearly knows that what he is doing is in opposition of what All Might fights for, and he's okay with that.
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Aug 2, 2017 23:33
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Stain seems pretty aware that he's a villain who should be defeated by a hero, even if he thinks what he's doing is right. But he's crazy so that probably doesn't register as a contradiction to him.
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Aug 2, 2017 23:36
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Kanos posted:To be fair, in a one on one situation anyone short of All Might would probably lose to Stain. Hell, All Might might lose to Stain if Stain attacked him from ambush or All Might tried to pull his punches too much; all it takes is one nick and you're dead. JT Jag fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Aug 3, 2017 |
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Aug 3, 2017 00:01
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Aizawa has a prehensile scarf or some poo poo, while stain has a million knives It's an interesting matchup
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Aug 3, 2017 01:24
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