The democrats are a waste

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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed.
B	77	25.50%
K	160	52.98%
M	65	21.52%
Total:	229 votes

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JailTrump: Jul 14, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

WampaLord posted:

lmao what in the gently caress is this poo poo?

I will pray for your sole "Wampalord"

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:06

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# ? May 15, 2024 22:37

JeffersonClay: Jun 17, 2003; by R. Guyovich

Ytlaya posted:

No, what she did was almost certainly quite racist. I'm sure she probably didn't have racist intentions, but policies that have a disproportionate negative impact on minorities are generally intrinsically racist, and families with truant students are disproportionately of color.

Child abuse and neglect reports are disproportionately against people of color, too, at least in California. Should we stop prosecuting them?

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:07

FuriousxGeorge: Aug 8, 2007; We've been the best team all year.

They're just finding out.

JeffersonClay posted:

Child abuse and neglect reports are disproportionately against people of color, too, at least in California. Should we stop prosecuting them?

Should we jail parents if the children are obese? It poses an immediate health risk. Oh poo poo, you are centrist dem psychopath enough to say yes, aren't you?

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:10

Grand Theft Autobot: Feb 28, 2008; I'm something of a fucking idiot myself

JeffersonClay posted:

Child abuse and neglect reports are disproportionately against people of color, too, at least in California. Should we stop prosecuting them?

Jailing a parent for child abuse will likely end that parent's abuse of the child, for a time. Jailing a parent for their kid's truancy problem will not end their kid's truancy problem, and will likely exacerbate it.

Hope this helps.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:11

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

JeffersonClay posted:

Child abuse and neglect reports are disproportionately against people of color, too, at least in California. Should we stop prosecuting them?

Something like child abuse can be proved in a way that doesn't have any alternative understandable explanations for why it might have occurred. And even then, as far as the child's well being is concerned it's more important to ensure they're removed from the environment than it is to punish the parent (in a way beyond taking away their child, anyways).

Whether the parent should be imprisoned or fined in addition to having their child removed is a separate issue, but as long as the child remains in their custody, a high fine or prison time accomplishes nothing.

(Also, your argument can be made about virtually any crime. You could say "well black people are imprisoned more for X, are you saying X isn't actually a crime?")

edit: Oh, I missed one of the most important points. What you're arguing implicitly assumes that black parents are more likely to allow truancy for inexcusable reasons. You're basically revisiting one of the favorite arguments of racists - "what if black people are just naturally more likely to be criminals???"

Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Aug 2, 2017

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:11

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

JeffersonClay posted:

That's a pretty sad retort considering you've been proven decisively wrong.

nah, you're just an idiot clinging to abusive laws and pretending that some just world bullshit applied on top makes them just

quote:

Also, the law only applies to kids in elementary and middle school. "Older kids, not really under their parent's control any more" don't qualify.

quote:

Please know that student attendance laws apply to all students between the ages of 6 and 18 in all California public schools.

quote:

And again, the court has a number of non-fine, non-incarceration remedies, and parents can only be found guilty after they've received support services designed to help them make their kids go to school.

but that still doesn't help? like what do you not understand about "fining parents or sending them to jail is not proven to improve truancy"?

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:13

call to action: Jun 10, 2016; by FactsAreUseless

It's amazing watching bad dems pivot effortlessly from "supporting Tulsi makes you a racist" to "oh, OF COURSE you just happen to dislike kamala just like you disliked hillary. right. yeah, we get it. mmhmm."

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:14

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

FuriousxGeorge posted:

"The courts will treat poor and/or minority people who can't even afford lawyers very fairly when it comes to a legal matter."
-An American Psychopath

seriously. we already have ample evidence of this, but JC says "well there are some provisos so obviously only the real nasty parents will be jailed"

of course, that still skips the question of how jailing bad parents improves the attendance of truant students

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:16

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

JeffersonClay posted:

If you're demonstrably trying to make your kids go to school, and they won't go, you're not at fault.

A couple things:

- I'm not sure if this is actually true of the law in question (a quick Google didn't reveal if it cares about the reason for the child missing)

- Even if it does account for the reason, the justice system itself is racist and cannot be expected to make what are ultimately subjective judgments in a way that isn't biased. Black parents will inevitably be considered at fault for things white parents wouldn't be, because that's how things tend to work in our justice system. This is why a punitive approach to trying to fix problems like this is counterproductive more often than not, especially in a situation like this where there's a clear non-punitive solution.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:16

C. Everett Koop: Aug 18, 2008

JeffersonClay posted:

I think both unavoidable circumstance and willful neglect cause children to miss school, and I think the state is right to punish the latter. I think both unavoidable circumstance and willful neglect cause children to have their physical and emotional needs unmet, and the state is right to punish the latter.

You don't, you send your kids to public school. If, however, you actively don't give a poo poo about your kid going to school while you're at work, I don't have a problem with the state threatening to sanction you.

You realize that the system is broken by design to punish the poor for the crime of being poor, and it just so happens! that the majority of the poor in this country are minorities, right? You realize that the school systems are underfunded to deny them a proper education, to over-punish anyone who steps a fraction out of line, to remove anyone who's considered a "nuisance" for whatever reason real or perceived? That once a poor person has been cut off from getting an education there's almost no hope for them and the best case, the loving best case scenario, is that they only end up homeless and not in the prison system or in the county morgue? That this is just one step closer to removing the whole "school" aspect and just criminalizing being poor with dark skin? That what centrist piles of filth like you want would be to arrest a child out of the womb for the unforgivable crime of not being white and sentencing them to life? Born in the prison system die in the prison system, this is what you want? This is what you consider good government?

You pathetic pillock. You unfathomable buffoon. You stupid piece of poo poo. How loving dumb are you? I don't know how you wake up each morning having not suffocated on your own drool. I can't imagine that you can put one foot in front of the other without collapsing into a pile of worthless flesh under your own ignorance. You have never had an opinion that wasn't willfully false. You have never made a post that wouldn't have been drastically improved by someone slamming your face into the keyboard. You embarrass us all as a human being.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:17

John Wick of Dogs: Mar 4, 2017; A real hellraiser

What if, rather than jailing parents for kids being truant, you assigned a case worker who could pick the kids up in the mornings to take them to the bus stop if necessary?

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:18

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Ytlaya posted:

A couple things:

- I'm not sure if this is actually true of the law in question (a quick Google didn't reveal if it cares about the reason for the child missing)

- Even if it does account for the reason, the justice system itself is racist and cannot be expected to make what are ultimately subjective judgments in a way that isn't biased. Black parents will inevitably be considered at fault for things white parents wouldn't be, because that's how things tend to work in our justice system. This is why a punitive approach to trying to fix problems like this is counterproductive more often than not, especially in a situation like this where there's a clear non-punitive solution.

isn't it amazing how frequently i've mentioned that the non-punitive solutions have actually scientifically established results, compared to the punitive ones, but centrists still insist on punishing people for truancy with jail

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:18

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Al Borland Corp. posted:

What if, rather than jailing parents for kids being truant, you assigned a case worker who could pick the kids up in the mornings to take them to the bus stop if necessary?

that would require a spine, it's easier to uselessly jail parents to make it look like you did something

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:19

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

Nevvy Z posted:

Agreed. is there evidence Harris did this part in bold? That's all I've been asking. She supported an idea that is bad, but we don't seem to have any sources on the actual implementation or the actual results and how it affected the real people it affected, just a bunch of goons accusing her of genocide or whatever.

One could easily argue that merely supporting the idea is strong evidence that she can't be trusted to have good judgement on the general topic of criminal justice reform.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:21

John Wick of Dogs: Mar 4, 2017; A real hellraiser

gently caress, you could just hire a loving tutor and homeschool the kid for less than the cost of jailing the parents.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:22

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Al Borland Corp. posted:

gently caress, you could just hire a loving tutor and homeschool the kid for less than the cost of jailing the parents.

Condiv posted:

how odd, when given a choice between a costly tool that doesn't work and brutalizes the poor, and a less costly tool that does work and lets the poor keep their dignity, centrists reach without fail for brutalizing the poor. amazing!

jailing parents of truant kids doesn't help. it's expensive. if the kids can't find family to stay with they go into the foster system which is even more expensive

meanwhile, aid to parents with truant kids works, and is less expensive than throwing them in jail or putting their kids in foster homes. but centrists would have to make a stand and actually govern to get this part. so they do the thing that doesn't help at great cost to everyone

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:24

Mecha Gojira: Jun 23, 2006; Jack Nissan

Doesn't help the parent who does drop their kid off at the front door of the school who then skips on his own.

Maybe what we really need is a top to bottom restructuring of our society along the lines of egalitarian justice instead of sticking with a system that literally turns the American education system into a feeder for the Prison Industrial Complex out of pure racism and a need to extract profit.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:25

John Wick of Dogs: Mar 4, 2017; A real hellraiser

I told you I'm not a centrist, regardless of my belief that attacking Clinton's rotting corpse is more of a waste than the Democrats. I'm completely on board with criticism of living Democrat centrists threatening to run for president.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:27

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Al Borland Corp. posted:

I told you I'm not a centrist, regardless of my belief that attacking Clinton's rotting corpse is more of a waste than the Democrats. I'm completely on board with criticism of living Democrat centrists threatening to run for president.

i wasn't accusing you of being centrist. i was sharing a similar sentiment i had earlier

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:28

WampaLord: Jan 14, 2010

JailTrump posted:

I will pray for your sole "Wampalord"

Keep your weird fundie poo poo to yourself, please.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:28

JeffersonClay: Jun 17, 2003; by R. Guyovich

Grand Theft Autobot posted:

Jailing a parent for child abuse will likely end that parent's abuse of the child, for a time. Jailing a parent for their kid's truancy problem will not end their kid's truancy problem, and will likely exacerbate it.

Hope this helps.

If the truancy problem is due to willful neglect, which is the type we're talking about prosecuting, I don't think you're necessarily correct.

Ytlaya posted:

A couple things:

- I'm not sure if this is actually true of the law in question (a quick Google didn't reveal if it cares about the reason for the child missing)

- Even if it does account for the reason, the justice system itself is racist and cannot be expected to make what are ultimately subjective judgments in a way that isn't biased. Black parents will inevitably be considered at fault for things white parents wouldn't be, because that's how things tend to work in our justice system. This is why a punitive approach to trying to fix problems like this is counterproductive more often than not, especially in a situation like this where there's a clear non-punitive solution.

I've already quoted the law in question and I'm right.

1) Student needs to be chronically truant. That means missing more than 10% of school, non-excused, so illness/family event doesn't count.
2) Parent is only prosecutable if they've failed to "reasonably supervise and encourage school attendance"
3) Parent is only prosecutable if they've previously received "language accessible support services to address the pupil's truancy".
4) If found guilty, the court has a substantial number of non-fine, non-incarceration options as remedies.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:28

Mister Facetious: Apr 21, 2007; I think I died and woke up in L.A.,
I don't know how I wound up in this place...

Condiv posted:

how odd, when given a choice between a costly tool that doesn't work and brutalizes the poor, and a less costly tool that does work and lets the poor keep their dignity, centrists reach without fail for brutalizing the poor. amazing!

jailing parents of truant kids doesn't help. it's expensive. if the kids can't find family to stay with they go into the foster system which is even more expensive

meanwhile, aid to parents with truant kids works, and is less expensive than throwing them in jail or putting their kids in foster homes. but centrists would have to make a stand and actually govern to get this part. so they do the thing that doesn't help at great cost to everyone

Don't forget that they're invested in for-profit prisons, and have a vested stock interest in keeping them full.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:29

John Wick of Dogs: Mar 4, 2017; A real hellraiser

Condiv posted:

i wasn't accusing you of being centrist. i was sharing a similar sentiment i had earlier

I know, I was referencing the earlier conversation

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:29

John Wick of Dogs: Mar 4, 2017; A real hellraiser

JeffersonClay posted:

If the truancy problem is due to willful neglect, which is the type we're talking about prosecuting, I don't think you're necessarily correct.

I've already quoted the law in question and I'm right.

1) Student needs to be chronically truant. That means missing more than 10% of school, non-excused, so illness/family event doesn't count.
2) Parent is only prosecutable if they've failed to "reasonably supervise and encourage school attendance"
3) Parent is only prosecutable if they've previously received "language accessible support services to address the pupil's truancy".
4) If found guilty, the court has a substantial number of non-fine, non-incarceration options as remedies.

That 10% number is ridiculously low, imo. Especially given that usually for medical absence you need a doctor's note, and guess who can't afford to go to the doctor.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:31

JeffersonClay: Jun 17, 2003; by R. Guyovich

Mecha Gojira posted:

Doesn't help the parent who does drop their kid off at the front door of the school who then skips on his own.

A parent who has dropped their kid off at the door of the school has "reasonably supervised and encouraged" school attendance, and thus is not prosecutable under the statute we're talking about.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:31

JeffersonClay: Jun 17, 2003; by R. Guyovich

Al Borland Corp. posted:

That 10% number is ridiculously low, imo. Especially given that usually for medical absence you need a doctor's note, and guess who can't afford to go to the doctor.

You don't need a doctor's note except in the case of an extended absence, and poor kids in California have medical. Regardless, If a parent is keeping their seriously sick kid home for weeks at a time and not taking them to see a medical professional that's a different type of child abuse.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:34

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

JeffersonClay posted:

A parent who has dropped their kid off at the door of the school has "reasonably supervised and encouraged" school attendance, and thus is not prosecutable under the statute we're talking about.

are they getting a notarized attendance slip each time?

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:35

Sneakster: Jul 13, 2017; by R. Guyovich

That was pleasant. Was talking to black lady in advisement and Kamala Harris came up: "She's trying to rehabilitate her image, but everyone knows what she did as a DA in California".

JC, people know this candidate is trash, run a less sleazy candidate before you get another Trump elected, again.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:38

Matt Zerella: Oct 7, 2002; Norris'es are back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (fox Howl)

JeffersonClay posted:

A parent who has dropped their kid off at the door of the school has "reasonably supervised and encouraged" school attendance, and thus is not prosecutable under the statute we're talking about.

What if you work 2 jobs to make ends meet and can't drop your kid off at the door?

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:39

JailTrump: Jul 14, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

WampaLord posted:

Keep your weird fundie poo poo to yourself, please.

Naw.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:40

Mister Facetious: Apr 21, 2007; I think I died and woke up in L.A.,
I don't know how I wound up in this place...

Matt Zerella posted:

What if you work 2 jobs to make ends meet and can't drop your kid off at the door?

Get a better job
- a centrist

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:40

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Matt Zerella posted:

What if you work 2 jobs to make ends meet and can't drop your kid off at the door?

jail

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:40

FuriousxGeorge: Aug 8, 2007; We've been the best team all year.

They're just finding out.

Matt Zerella posted:

What if you work 2 jobs to make ends meet and can't drop your kid off at the door?

We will offer you student loans at reasonable interest rates so you can develop skills while in prison.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:40

Mecha Gojira: Jun 23, 2006; Jack Nissan

FuriousxGeorge posted:

We will offer you student loans at reasonable interest rates so you can develop skills while in prison.

Specifically coding so we can help our new Silicon Valley donor class suppress wages.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:41

Willie Tomg: Feb 2, 2006

Sneakster posted:

That was pleasant. Was talking to black lady in advisement and Kamala Harris came up: "She's trying to rehabilitate her image, but everyone knows what she did as a DA in California".

JC, people know this candidate is trash, run a less sleazy candidate before you get another Trump elected, again.

At this rate Dems will shoot their wad putting Pence in the seat, and it'll be lovely Dem versus a florescently beige towheaded millenarist endtimes psycho. In wartime.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:43

Willie Tomg: Feb 2, 2006

Mecha Gojira posted:

Specifically coding so we can help our new Silicon Valley donor class suppress wages.

hot take: retrain lobbyists and thinkpiece nepotists to code

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:44

JeffersonClay: Jun 17, 2003; by R. Guyovich

Matt Zerella posted:

What if you work 2 jobs to make ends meet and can't drop your kid off at the door?

There are plenty of other ways to "reasonably supervise and encourage" school attendance. Do you really need me to list them? This statute is for prosecuting parents who willfully neglect that responsibility.

Condiv posted:

are they getting a notarized attendance slip each time?

If they're a chronically truant student? Sure. Again, I'm pretty sure I have a better understanding of these systems in California than you do.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:44

Call Me Charlie: Dec 3, 2005; by Smythe

i'll try again on the next page

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:44

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

JeffersonClay posted:

You don't need a doctor's note except in the case of an extended absence, and poor kids in California have medical. Regardless, If a parent is keeping their seriously sick kid home for weeks at a time and not taking them to see a medical professional that's a different type of child abuse.

quote:

In 2011, slightly more than 1.1 million children in California were uninsured

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:45

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# ? May 15, 2024 22:37

John Wick of Dogs: Mar 4, 2017; A real hellraiser

What if instead of prisoners being forced to do slave labor they could earn a college education on prison campus. Like, what if your core were literature, ethics, philosophy, science, and after that you move on to one of a few different available programs.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:45

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