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ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Nevets posted:

How long does it take hivemind pops to die off after being severed from the collective?

5 years, like most purges.

# ? Aug 7, 2017 17:16

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# ? May 9, 2024 12:01

Poil: Mar 17, 2007

That sounds like a horrendous slow and torturous decay before the sweet release of the death. :gonk:

# ? Aug 7, 2017 17:24

Zore: Sep 21, 2010; willfully illiterate, aggressively miserable sourpuss whose sole raison d�etre is to put other people down for liking the wrong things

I imagine there are a lot of well meaning doctors and scientists trying real hard to figure out how to keep the bodies alive in most empires.

# ? Aug 7, 2017 17:25

GunnerJ: Aug 1, 2005; Do you think this is funny?

Maybe they just have naturally short lives and don't reproduce without the hivemind's control.

# ? Aug 7, 2017 17:28

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

The great thing about this is, it can be whatever you want! Just write a short blurb into your species lore description, and presto: Now it's that thing you want them to be only.

# ? Aug 7, 2017 17:57

Nevets: Sep 11, 2002; Be they sad or be they well,
I'll make their lives a hell

Even presuming severed pops retain all knowledge relating to their profession, just the lack of a hierarchical organization in a super-specialized future society would lead to a slow but inevitable breakdown & die off. Doctors would still treat sick patients brought to them, farmers would still grow spacemelons, etc. but without someone/thing to prioritize resource allocation then every instance of scarcity no matter how minor would chip away at the system.

You cut yourself & whichever ambulance is assigned to your location brings you to it's central hospital, you might bleed to death waiting for the doctor to finish treating someone with a twisted ankle who was there ahead of you. A drought hits and farmers growing cotton get an equal distribution of water as those growing melons, now you have a (well dressed) famine.

# ? Aug 7, 2017 18:07

Fintilgin: Sep 29, 2004; Fintilgin sweeps!

Nevets posted:

I'd say a hivemind species' brain is an atrophied but not yet vestigial organ, almost as capable of reason as non-hivemind species' brains. However, having never experienced individuality hivemind pops are totally unprepared after being cutoff. Left with no focus or ambition and no ability to relate to each other severed pops listlessly carry out their previous assignments until accident or circumstance stops them and then they just wait to die.

Probably right. Doesn't the Hive Mind fluff specifically say the hive linkage is psionic? So the individual will is subsumed to the psionic whole, but the average drone is still capable of reasoning and some degree of independent action.

# ? Aug 7, 2017 18:13

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Fintilgin posted:

Probably right. Doesn't the Hive Mind fluff specifically say the hive linkage is psionic? So the individual will is subsumed to the psionic whole, but the average drone is still capable of reasoning and some degree of independent action.

Hive Minds control their drones psionically, and leaders (Autonomous Drones) have some degree of self-awareness. That's really the only two 'fixed' rules of biological Hive Minds in Stellaris, the rest you're kind of free to decide for yourself when playing one.

# ? Aug 7, 2017 18:20

kujeger: Feb 19, 2004; OH YES HA HA

According to the descirption of the Hive Mind ethic, the pops "become comatose and eventually wither and die" when cut off from the hive. Five years is a long time to be comatose, guess the hive mind has built in some serious fat storage.

# ? Aug 7, 2017 18:23

Psychotic Weasel: Jun 24, 2004; Bang! You're dead.

Libluini posted:

The great thing about this is, it can be whatever you want! Just write a short blurb into your species lore description, and presto: Now it's that thing you want them to be only.

I don't think this isn't going to work - a lifetime of watching television and playing videogames has completely destroyed my imagination. I will need Wiz to carefully spell everything out for me so I know what I'm working with.

Nevets posted:

Even presuming severed pops retain all knowledge relating to their profession, just the lack of a hierarchical organization in a super-specialized future society would lead to a slow but inevitable breakdown & die off. Doctors would still treat sick patients brought to them, farmers would still grow spacemelons, etc. but without someone/thing to prioritize resource allocation then every instance of scarcity no matter how minor would chip away at the system.

You cut yourself & whichever ambulance is assigned to your location brings you to it's central hospital, you might bleed to death waiting for the doctor to finish treating someone with a twisted ankle who was there ahead of you. A drought hits and farmers growing cotton get an equal distribution of water as those growing melons, now you have a (well dressed) famine.

Imagine a drone like a dummy terminal or a piece of factory equipment. As soon as you cut off its network connection it won't be able to function (or perform a new function after it finishes whatever it was doing), it has no way of being told what to do. It will still 'work' in the sense that it still has power and all the parts are functional but it can't do anything; the lights are on but nobody is home.

# ? Aug 7, 2017 18:24

binge crotching: Apr 2, 2010

Wiz posted:

Hive Minds control their drones psionically, and leaders (Autonomous Drones) have some degree of self-awareness. That's really the only two 'fixed' rules of biological Hive Minds in Stellaris, the rest you're kind of free to decide for yourself when playing one.

If they are psionic, shouldn't they be able to delve into the Shroud?

# ? Aug 7, 2017 18:29

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

binge crotching posted:

If they are psionic, shouldn't they be able to delve into the Shroud?

They do (it's how they can communicate over interstellar distances), but it's more of a natural and inherent connection than a psionic empires' intrusions, so they don't use it the same way.

# ? Aug 7, 2017 18:43

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

kujeger posted:

According to the descirption of the Hive Mind ethic, the pops "become comatose and eventually wither and die" when cut off from the hive. Five years is a long time to be comatose, guess the hive mind has built in some serious fat storage.

It's made longer so you won't have them go pop after a month and cause you to lose a planet you just conquered. Gameplay reasons. I'm pretty sure it isn't actually 5 years though, at least in 1.8.

# ? Aug 7, 2017 18:44

kujeger: Feb 19, 2004; OH YES HA HA

Wiz posted:

It's made longer so you won't have them go pop after a month and cause you to lose a planet you just conquered. Gameplay reasons. I'm pretty sure it isn't actually 5 years though, at least in 1.8.

I'm going to go with the mental image of all hive pops being ridiculously fat instead, especially the penguin ones I made

# ? Aug 7, 2017 18:50

Poil: Mar 17, 2007

Hive minds turn species into goons?

# ? Aug 7, 2017 18:51

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Wiz posted:

It's made longer so you won't have them go pop after a month and cause you to lose a planet you just conquered. Gameplay reasons. I'm pretty sure it isn't actually 5 years though, at least in 1.8.

Maybe not in 1.8. I'll recheck 1.6 later today.

# ? Aug 7, 2017 18:52

Tigey: Apr 6, 2015

Wiz posted:

They do (it's how they can communicate over interstellar distances), but it's more of a natural and inherent connection than a psionic empires' intrusions, so they don't use it the same way.

Yeah I remember one of the Civics (Subspace Esphase or something) described it as being a biological connection over subspace or something.

Back before Banks, I made up a similar technobabble explanation for my Hive Mind race being able to work over interstellar distances, by explaining that as all drones came from eggs laid by the Queen, each egg that 'Her Grand Loveliness' laid contained small amounts of quantum entangled non-organic components which acted as instantenous receivers for the Hive Mind's neural signals across any distance, which each drone's brain then interpreted and transmitted back as needed.

It was complete and total made up bullshit, but it sounded surprisingly plausible enough to my nerdy friends at the time.

# ? Aug 7, 2017 19:16

3 DONG HORSE: May 22, 2008; I'd like to thank Satan for everything he's done for this organization

Poil posted:

Hive minds turn species into goons?

No, they are already goons then turn into goons without internet. Like imagine if you had to go outside.

# ? Aug 7, 2017 19:16

Nevets: Sep 11, 2002; Be they sad or be they well,
I'll make their lives a hell

3 DONG HORSE posted:

No, they are already goons then turn into goons without internet. Like imagine if you had to go outside.

If goons could talk to other goons telepathically they wouldn't need SA. And if they lived in a Stellaris-esque future universe they wouldn't need EVE online.

That accounts for 98% of goon internet usage, I'd bet they'd be pretty much the same.

# ? Aug 7, 2017 19:43

Jenny Angel: Oct 24, 2010; Out of Control
Hard to Regulate
Anything Goes!; Lipstick Apathy

In my first game, I'm at a fleet power of around 20,000 and a mineral income of around 300 right before wrapping up my first century of play. About how long do I have, give or take, before an endgame crisis shows up, and am I roughly on track or behind for preparing for it?

# ? Aug 7, 2017 19:48

LogisticEarth: Mar 28, 2004; Someone once told me, "Time is a flat circle".

Jenny Angel posted:

In my first game, I'm at a fleet power of around 20,000 and a mineral income of around 300 right before wrapping up my first century of play. About how long do I have, give or take, before an endgame crisis shows up, and am I roughly on track or behind for preparing for it?

Depends on what galaxy size you're playing on. The mineral income isn't too shabby, but that fleet size will probably get wiped by most of the crises, which have multiple fleets at something like 50-80k.

Spoilers in case folks still care: I think the Prethoryn Scourge has a few timespans where they can show up, set randomly at the beginning of the game. I think it ranges from 150-350 years into the game, or something. The Unbidden might appear when people start using Jump Drives a lot, so farther down the tech tree, or if you get an Awakened Empire that starts moving around. Never actually had the AI rebellion, and my understanding is their occurrence is typically quite rare at the moment. So, to answer your question, you still have a few decades before you need to start worrying, but don't dawdle. If anything, you may be dealing with an AE at some point.

# ? Aug 7, 2017 22:19

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Wiz posted:

It's made longer so you won't have them go pop after a month and cause you to lose a planet you just conquered. Gameplay reasons. I'm pretty sure it isn't actually 5 years though, at least in 1.8.

Is there a reason regular purges take so long? Having the fastest option be 5 years is kinda annoying.

# ? Aug 8, 2017 01:06

binge crotching: Apr 2, 2010

LogisticEarth posted:

If anything, you may be dealing with an AE at some point.

I'm pretty sure that 50k fleet is still a requirement for the awakening event.

# ? Aug 8, 2017 01:12

Wolfechu: May 2, 2009; All the world's a stage I'm going through

Nevets posted:

If goons could talk to other goons telepathically they wouldn't need SA. And if they lived in a Stellaris-esque future universe they wouldn't need EVE online.

That accounts for 98% of goon internet usage, I'd bet they'd be pretty much the same.

I'm sure the remaining use (porn) accounts for more than 2%.

# ? Aug 8, 2017 01:35

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Wiz posted:

It's made longer so you won't have them go pop after a month and cause you to lose a planet you just conquered. Gameplay reasons. I'm pretty sure it isn't actually 5 years though, at least in 1.8.

From 1.6.2, species_rights.txt:

code:

citizenship_purge = {
	token = citizenship_purge

	allow = {
		hidden_trigger = { exists = from }
		custom_tooltip = {
			fail_text = "HIVE_MIND_MAIN_SPECIES_ALWAYS_CITIZEN"
			NAND = {
				from = { has_authority = auth_hive_mind }
				is_same_species = from
			}
		}
		NOT = { is_same_species = from }
		if = { 
			limit = { is_lonely_hive_mind_pop = yes } 
			always = yes

If I read that piece right, a species will always get set to purge if it's a lonely hive mind (aka a hive mind species in an empire without a hive mind). And then, from 00defines.txt:

code:

		PURGE_EXTERMINATION_MONTHS				= 60	# Number of months it takes to exterminate a population when using extermination purging
		PURGE_PROCESSING_MONTHS					= 120	# Number of months it takes to exterminate a population when purging
		PURGE_LABOR_CAMPS_MONTHS				= 300	# Number of months it takes to exterminate a population when purging
		PURGE_NEUTERING_LENGTH_FACTOR			= 0.75	# Factor of leader death age

# ? Aug 8, 2017 01:43

imweasel09: May 26, 2014

I feel like these robots are maybe being a little hypocritical.

# ? Aug 8, 2017 01:50

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

Strudel Man posted:

You gotta wonder exactly how that works, though. The entire planet is still full of drones. In what way does signing a treaty cut them off from the hive?

I guess you could say maybe the overmind is agreeing to cut the planet off. Like chopping off a hand.

Yeah I figured the treaty was "All control nodes are destroyed"

# ? Aug 8, 2017 02:31

Strudel Man: May 19, 2003; ROME DID NOT HAVE ROBOTS, FUCKWIT

Mister Adequate posted:

Yeah I figured the treaty was "All control nodes are destroyed"

I don't usually imagine any external control apparatus is necessary for a hive mind to continue hiving, is all.

# ? Aug 8, 2017 02:37

Milkfred E. Moore: Aug 27, 2006; 'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

Strudel Man posted:

I don't usually imagine any external control apparatus is necessary for a hive mind to continue hiving, is all.

As with all discussions of cool space stuff, Blindsight holds the answers you seek.

The aliens in that feel like the idea of the hive mind in Stellaris.

# ? Aug 8, 2017 02:50

Relevant Tangent: Nov 18, 2016; Tangentially Relevant

Poil posted:

That sounds like a horrendous slow and torturous decay before the sweet release of the death.

They have no sense of self. It's like feeling bad for a hair that you pluck. On the other hand, if you're not letting Bob the Space Monster join your alliance just because they've got a million bodies maybe you're the real Space Monster.

# ? Aug 8, 2017 03:01

Conskill: May 7, 2007; I got an 'F' in Geometry.

Relevant Tangent posted:

They have no sense of self. It's like feeling bad for a hair that you pluck. On the other hand, if you're not letting Bob the Space Monster join your alliance just because they've got a million bodies maybe you're the real Space Monster.

I was going to grouse about how Stellaris uses the term sentient again, but somehow it seems less funny when talking about the 5-year-long slow death of a potentially feeling being.

Stellaris: surprisingly dark.

# ? Aug 8, 2017 03:06

Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

imweasel09 posted:

I feel like these robots are maybe being a little hypocritical.

They didn't abandon being organic, they were built that way. How dare you sully their mechanical perfection with your organically formed mindwaves?

# ? Aug 8, 2017 03:56

Psychotic Weasel: Jun 24, 2004; Bang! You're dead.

What if one of the end game ascension paths for a mechanical/AI race was to become human? Like Data in Star Trek or I guess the Cylons, their ultimate goal is to become a 'real' person; it could be like the Evolutionary Mastery but for robots.

Those robots would really hate races that took Synthetic Evolution since they're essentially throwing away something they want most.

# ? Aug 8, 2017 04:02

Kurgarra Queen: Jun 11, 2008; GIVE ME MORE
SUPER BOWL
WINS

Psychotic Weasel posted:

What if one of the end game ascension paths for a mechanical/AI race was to become human? Like Data in Star Trek or I guess the Cylons, their ultimate goal is to become a 'real' person; it could be like the Evolutionary Mastery but for robots.

Those robots would really hate races that took Synthetic Evolution since they're essentially throwing away something they want most.

At the very least, it'd be cool if there was a kind of Bicentennial Man-inspired event where a robot wants to be recognized as a human/organic.

# ? Aug 8, 2017 04:25

3 DONG HORSE: May 22, 2008; I'd like to thank Satan for everything he's done for this organization

Where is my drat Q quest chain

# ? Aug 8, 2017 04:51

Improbable Lobster: Jan 6, 2012; What is the Matrix 🌐? We just don't know 😎.; Buglord

Lance of Llanwyln posted:

At the very least, it'd be cool if there was a kind of Bicentennial Man-inspired event where a robot wants to be recognized as a human/organic.

Whenever you build a Synth you have to watch the entirety of Bicentennial Man

# ? Aug 8, 2017 05:31

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

Improbable Lobster posted:

Whenever you build a Synth you have to watch the entirety of Bicentennial Man

# ? Aug 8, 2017 05:42

Reveilled: Apr 19, 2007; Take up your rifles

GunnerJ posted:

Would be kinda neat if they devolved to pre-sapience for later uplift as individuals.

I also wish this was an option for hive minds on worlds they conquer. Rather than calling it "Pre-sentience" call it "benign neglect" or something, the hive doesn't get any use out of these pops it can't (yet) integrate or assimilate, but it also isn't going out of its way to displace them or eat them.

If I'm wanting to play as a "nice" hivemind, I want a way to vassalise or liberate hostile powers, but I can't do that without committing genocide if the hostile power is too large to vassalise in one go. At least if I could ignore pops instead of purging them, I could grind an enemy down and then give the planet's back once they're properly vassalised.

I also kind of wish Hive Mind was a 2 cost ethos instead of 3. Hive minds would feel a bit more interesting to interact with if they had some actual ideology in that giant space mind.

# ? Aug 8, 2017 10:25

Demiurge4: Aug 10, 2011

What about a district 9 approach? The individual hive members are capable of reasoning on a basic level but without the guidance of the hive mind they revert to scavengers and subsistence existence.

This would keep the pops around but make them completely useless to you and your only option would be gene modding or purge.

# ? Aug 8, 2017 10:44

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# ? May 9, 2024 12:01

Atsushogob: Oct 7, 2008

Reveilled posted:

I also wish this was an option for hive minds on worlds they conquer. Rather than calling it "Pre-sentience" call it "benign neglect" or something, the hive doesn't get any use out of these pops it can't (yet) integrate or assimilate, but it also isn't going out of its way to displace them or eat them.

If I'm wanting to play as a "nice" hivemind, I want a way to vassalise or liberate hostile powers, but I can't do that without committing genocide if the hostile power is too large to vassalise in one go. At least if I could ignore pops instead of purging them, I could grind an enemy down and then give the planet's back once they're properly vassalised.

I also kind of wish Hive Mind was a 2 cost ethos instead of 3. Hive minds would feel a bit more interesting to interact with if they had some actual ideology in that giant space mind.

They are adding in the ability to assimilate pops, which I'm assuming comes long before you would finish Bio Mastery, so depending on how nice you view that option it sounds a lot like what you're looking for with your hive runs.

# ? Aug 8, 2017 13:09

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