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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
| M |
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65 | 21.52% |
| Total: | 229 votes | ||
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C. Everett Koop posted:There isn't. Anyone with a job and health insurance is The Enemy and needs to be destroyed. Don't worry, your post gave me cancer. jfood posted:I'm really enjoying the irony of a dude with the forums name of 'Reik' who sits on actual death panels. Thanks thread! I really like Warhammer Fantasy Battles http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Reikland Reik fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Aug 9, 2017 |
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Aug 9, 2017 15:04
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tekz posted:This has to be exaggerated or something right? They aren't actually not running a candidate for governor in one of the country's biggest states? I guess they figured since they were just going to run another Republican-Lite why bother. 
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Aug 9, 2017 15:08
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Glazier posted:I guess they figured since they were just going to run another Republican-Lite why bother. I mean, they can just pick anyone, right? Who's gonna lose running against Greg Abbott? Guy's in a wheelchair.
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Aug 9, 2017 15:16
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tekz posted:This has to be exaggerated or something right? They aren't actually not running a candidate for governor in one of the country's biggest states? Someone threw their hat in the ring but the texas dem leadership is looking for a donor-friendly corporate conservative businessman.
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Aug 9, 2017 15:29
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jfood posted:I'm really enjoying the irony of a dude with the forums name of 'Reik' who sits on actual death panels. Thanks thread! in fairness to him, that's not what he does. he just provides the data on when it would be a good idea for his employer to stop paying for people's health care, we'd certainly never act on this incredibly valuable information to have, profit motive what's profit motive if you want death panels as they were envisioned by the terrified republicans of the world, where the people actually providing your health care have a break to discuss if you're really worth the effort of keeping alive, allow me to introduce you to the wonderful world of HMOs.
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Aug 9, 2017 16:02
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Ze Pollack posted:in fairness to him, that's not what he does. he just provides the data on when it would be a good idea for his employer to stop paying for people's health care, we'd certainly never act on this incredibly valuable information to have, profit motive what's profit motive Your ability to not understand what Actuaries do is astounding.
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Aug 9, 2017 16:21
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Reik posted:Your ability to not understand what Actuaries do is astounding. your inability to recognize what your value-add to the company you work for is is probably for the best for your mental health. shame about the people you've killed, but hey, look on the bright side, you'll never know their names
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Aug 9, 2017 16:24
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Reik posted:Your ability to not understand what Actuaries do is astounding. Look man, you're a cog in a machine that kills people. Accept it. If this is the way you make your bread, fine, whatever, I get it. But you don't have to spend what precious free time you have defending your industry, it's a lovely industry.
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Aug 9, 2017 16:29
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WampaLord posted:Look man, you're a cog in a machine that kills people. Accept it. We're all cogs in a machine that kills people.
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Aug 9, 2017 16:31
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Reik posted:We're all cogs in a machine that kills people. Yea, but some more direct than others. And the rest of us aren't defending our respective industries like you are.
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Aug 9, 2017 16:33
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WampaLord posted:Yea, but some more direct than others. And the rest of us aren't defending our respective industries like you are. Okay, lets take a step back. If I remember correctly, this all started because we were arguing about who is driving up healthcare costs. I said insurers are not driving up healthcare costs. I never said health insurers have no negative effects on healthcare. If insurers had no negative effects on healthcare I wouldn't support single payer/UHC. I think health insurers have the same negative effects on healthcare that any insurance company has on their respective market. Now, because healthcare is, as other people have said as well, a completely different market/service when compared to other traditional insurance markets like homeowners, life, and auto insurance, I think the negative effects a traditional insurer causes on the market is not acceptable in healthcare. I think the way to fix this is to remove the underlying issue of healthcare being a for-profit industry, not burning down health insurers. The reason I defend insurers when it comes to driving up healthcare costs is because I don't want people thinking that removing insurers will stop rising healthcare costs. It won't. If you want to stop rising healthcare costs you have to address the producers of the healthcare, not the insurers. Does that make sense?
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Aug 9, 2017 16:47
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Reik posted:We're all cogs in a machine that kills people. it's interesting. fun bit of trivia for you: your business environment was explicitly constructed with lessons learned from the holocaust at heart. see, there was this pretty big problem back in late 1930s Germany: it turns out when you assign a bunch of nine-to-fivers the job "kill these people," not only do you have issues with desertion and psychological trauma, they commit the most egregious of crimes against the machine: they drag their feet. sensible, industrially minded systems managers took a look at this problem, and came up with the idea: 'what if we divided up the labor.' Reik just builds models that identify what a policy that's about to become extremely expensive looks like. he doesn't do anything with them, that's someone else's department. the person who drew up the claims guidelines didn't identify the expensive policies. some actuary did that. he just identified which policies need to be subjected to additional scrutiny. (by the numbers, if the claim's less than ten thousand dollars, the claims agent is wasting their time.) the claims agent just followed the guidelines his supervisor gave him. sometimes you just get told to try a denial on grounds they must have done something wrong. who picks out which policies get this, certainly not him. the person who places the call saying "unless you can pay for it out of pocket, we're not able to treat you anymore" didn't kill anyone. they're just the messenger for the people who did. and the orderly who wheels the person out of the hospital, to die bankrupt for the crime of showing up on Reik's model, well, they just work here, man. it's not hard to build a people-murdering machine, it turns out. you've just got to spread the responsibility nice and thin.
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Aug 9, 2017 16:47
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Reik posted:Your ability to not understand what Actuaries do is astounding. You are welcome to come join us actuaries over on the property & casualty side. Still insurance, same pay, none of the existential guilt of working in health.
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Aug 9, 2017 16:48
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Gaghskull posted:You are welcome to come join us actuaries over on the property & casualty side. Still insurance, same pay, none of the existential guilt of working in health. Once health insurance goes the way of the dodo I may end up getting an FCAS, but until then I guess I'm getting unique actuarial experience? Did you see the letter the NAIC sent out trashing the SOA GI track? Pretty hilarious stuff. http://www.naic.org/documents/committees_c_catf_exposure_soa_action_items.pdf SOA is being a bunch of idiots when it comes to working with CAS.
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Aug 9, 2017 16:52
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Reik posted:Okay, lets take a step back. incidentally, no. removing insurers will not stop rising healthcare costs, because they are not the only factor in raising them. they are, however, a massive market inefficiency that can be removed relatively simply. private insurance is not the worst offender. it is, however, the easiest of the many, many problems to correct. via excision. welcome to value-add modeling, my actuarial friend. the trendlines for "efficiencies provided" and "cost to achieve" form a neat little crosshairs over your head. not as fun when you're on the other end of the spreadsheet, is it?
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Aug 9, 2017 16:54
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Reik posted:I said insurers are not driving up healthcare costs. You're literally incapable of accepting counter factual information to these claims, they have become dogmatic to you because your salary depends on believing them. They're all wrong, and you refuse to accept that because from within the system it all seems totally normal. But nothing about it is normal.
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Aug 9, 2017 16:55
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WampaLord posted:You're literally incapable of accepting counter factual information to these claims, they have become dogmatic to you because your salary depends on believing them. They're all wrong, and you refuse to accept that because from within the system it all seems totally normal. No, I don't accept these claims because they're objectively false. My salary, job security, whatever you want to call it has absolutely zero dependence on whether or not health insurers are driving up costs.
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Aug 9, 2017 17:00
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Reik posted:No, I don't accept these claims because they're objectively false. My salary, job security, whatever you want to call it has absolutely zero dependence on whether or not health insurers are driving up costs. My dude, I literally linked a New York Times article showing an example of how insurers were driving up healthcare costs and you went "Pffffft, nah." You are in deep denial.
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Aug 9, 2017 17:04
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Ze Pollack posted:in fairness to him, that's not what he does. he just provides the data on when it would be a good idea for his employer to stop paying for people's health care, we'd certainly never act on this incredibly valuable information to have, profit motive what's profit motive Fox News style death panels actually happened in Arizona (Thanks Jan): http://abcnews.go.com/Health/News/arizona-transplant-deaths/story?id=12559369#.UaOZIJXEJz9 quote:On Oct. 1, the Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System stopped paying for seven types of transplants that the state's GOP governor, Jan Brewer, and GOP-led legislature said they could no longer afford. The state faces a projected $1 billion program deficit by July 2011.
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Aug 9, 2017 17:08
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WampaLord posted:My dude, I literally linked a New York Times article showing an example of how insurers were driving up healthcare costs and you went "Pffffft, nah." I already explained that if what is going on in that article is what I think is going on, the insurer is lowering the overall cost of healthcare, but shifting the cost to the policyholder through benefit design, specifically the formulary. There's a very important difference between the two. Maybe, just maybe, the person that works in the field and spends hundreds of hours studying for exams about the field has a better understanding of the inner workings of the field.
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Aug 9, 2017 17:09
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Reik posted:No, I don't accept these claims because they're objectively false. My salary, job security, whatever you want to call it has absolutely zero dependence on whether or not health insurers are driving up costs. do you think providers just shrug their shoulders and say "welp, serves us right for treating someone Reik's model said was expensive, we'll just write that .2 mil off as a learning experience" when your company denies somebody coverage? of course they resolve to just charge you more next time to make up the difference! thanks to which your bosses need to deny more claims to stay profitable. so hospitals charge you more, so you deny more claims, so hospitals charge you more, so you deny more claims, and repeat until something finally breaks. current score rests at 20% of all claims denied, and hospitals having dedicated actuaries to determine which routes of defrauding their local insurance companies have the highest return. welcome to the bigger picture. you do not look any better from this angle.
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Aug 9, 2017 17:11
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Reik, Would you agree with this statement: quote:Insurers are just a mechanism which is intermediate to cause and effect. Inasmuch as they're simply part of a system which has, in a sense, dictated these outcomes, they are not culpable.
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Aug 9, 2017 17:12
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Accretionist posted:Reik, No. Insurers have the same culpability any corporation has. By the nature of the business their sphere of influence might be different than non-insurers, but within their sphere of influence the insurers are just as culpable/liable for their actions. Reik fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Aug 9, 2017 |
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Aug 9, 2017 17:15
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Reik posted:No. Insurers have the same culpability any corporation has. So, none. Got it.
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Aug 9, 2017 17:20
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look nobody is saying employees of the insurance industry should roll over and die. we want you to have a job you can wake up to everyday and be proud of, like janitor or computer janitor or car janitor
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Aug 9, 2017 17:32
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Calibanibal posted:look nobody is saying employees of the insurance industry should roll over and die. we want you to have a job you can wake up to everyday and be proud of, like janitor or computer janitor or car janitor statistical janitorial positions are available in pretty much every field these days, it turns out
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Aug 9, 2017 17:40
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Calibanibal posted:look nobody is saying employees of the insurance industry should roll over and die. we want you to have a job you can wake up to everyday and be proud of, like janitor or computer janitor or car janitor Those jobs are only jobs you can be proud of if you work for a correct organization. Being a computer janitor at an insurance company isn't magically absolved of still being an insurance company. You can't be an ethical computer janitor or janitor and work in finance. Can't be an ethical car janitor and fix cars for cops. Etc etc
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Aug 9, 2017 17:42
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Trabisnikof posted:Those jobs are only jobs you can be proud of if you work for a correct organization. Being a computer janitor at an insurance company isn't magically absolved of still being an insurance company. it is impossible to be perfectly ethical. the moral is never try. welcome to the republican party, Trabisnikof.
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Aug 9, 2017 17:50
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tekz posted:This has to be exaggerated or something right? They aren't actually not running a candidate for governor in one of the country's biggest states? Why is anyone surprised by this? The Dems don't have a candidate for President either.
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Aug 9, 2017 17:56
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Ze Pollack posted:it is impossible to be perfectly ethical. the moral is never try. Sure but is it more moral to be a janitor for an insurance company or a janitor for a food processor? I don't have a clear answer of which would be worse or how workers could easily determine this. And this isn't even discussing the relative morality between working within an evil system to limit harm versus disengaging but allowing those potentially preventable harms.
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Aug 9, 2017 18:39
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C. Everett Koop posted:Why is anyone surprised by this? The Dems don't have a candidate for President either. The gubernatorial election is next year. (I know you're a gimmick poster, but in case anyone else is confused)
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Aug 9, 2017 18:39
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Majorian posted:The gubernatorial election is next year. (I know you're a gimmick poster, but in case anyone else is confused) And the filing deadline for the primary is this November so plently of time for Danny Fetonte to file.
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Aug 9, 2017 18:43
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Trabisnikof posted:Sure but is it more moral to be a janitor for an insurance company or a janitor for a food processor? I don't have a clear answer of which would be worse or how workers could easily determine this. there's a great line in the movie Apollo 13, in the aftermath of everything having gone to hell: "what do we have on this spacecraft that's good" silence falls in mission control. and at its end, someone says "I'll get back to you, Flight." let us discuss the profound harm-limiting power of repeating "there have been no harms committed, at any point, by anyone" louder when presented with evidence of said harms. centrism is a great theory, it's a shame about the way it inevitably collapses when put into practice.
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Aug 9, 2017 18:46
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Trabisnikof posted:Sure but is it more moral to be a janitor for an insurance company or a janitor for a food processor? I don't have a clear answer of which would be worse or how workers could easily determine this. First off, calling somebody who is involved in a decision making process a janitor is funny, but misleading and dishonest when used as a genuine argument. Second, people can be removed by various degrees from actual authority. The problem with the people like Reik, by the way, is that in modern systems the process is so compartmentalized and abstracted that nobody involved is actually by default aware of the greater whole to which they belong. It's the proper meaning of banality of evil, the fact that an army of paper pushers, none of which actually are compelled to think of themselves as proper moral agents in any way, can administer a system as severe as the Holocaust, or the targeted discrimination of non-profitable patients. THe answer is to promote the creation of consciousness (class consciousness if you will) among workers, which would allow them to transcend the immediate boundaries imposed upon them by their profession. E: I see Ze Pollack has already posted the same thing. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Aug 9, 2017 |
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Aug 9, 2017 18:55
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You guys should really let these medical insurers loot the houses of people they kill, like Visigoths.
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Aug 9, 2017 18:58
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Ze Pollack posted:it's interesting. fun bit of trivia for you: your business environment was explicitly constructed with lessons learned from the holocaust at heart. Side note, there's a wonderful german film about Napalm that tackles this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJXJRNB-5kk
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Aug 9, 2017 18:58
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Trabisnikof posted:And the filing deadline for the primary is this November so plently of time for Danny Fetonte to file. It doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the Democratic Governor's Association that they're so grievously behind on so many governor's races.
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Aug 9, 2017 19:03
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steinrokkan posted:First off, calling somebody who is involved in a decision making process a janitor is funny, but misleading and dishonest when used as a genuine argument. Second, people can be removed by various degrees from actual authority. Kind of like how people buying meat at the supermarket have no idea what kind of Holocaust-esque system we have in place in the US with factory farming?
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Aug 9, 2017 19:18
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Reik posted:Kind of like how people buying meat at the supermarket have no idea what kind of Holocaust-esque system we have in place in the US with factory farming? buddy if there's anyone who shouldn't be throwing the term holocaust around this thread it's you
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Aug 9, 2017 19:21
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C. Everett Koop posted:buddy if there's anyone who shouldn't be throwing the term holocaust around this thread it's you You're right. Building models to determine how much we need to collect in premiums to cover expected claims costs is pretty much the same as killing 6 million Jews.
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Aug 9, 2017 19:24
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