|
R. Mute posted:What evidence are we talking about here? What evidence, outside of what was in the article, has been brought forward? All I see is semantics and giving Israel the benefit of the doubt. You can look closer at this all you want, that's fine, but at a certain point you're just looking for excuses, looking for a reason not to have to accept the truth that's staring you in the face. Alright, I'll own it: when I first read that guardian article, I assumed there was a clear link between the Israeli government and the forced contraception. I didn't bother to check my assumptions until Ytlaya suggested otherwise. That's incredibly dangerous just from the angle of legitimizing the "it's just more blood libels" defense. Just for clarification, when you say that Israel is responsible for this because it occurred in their clinics, are you saying that they're responsible for treatment and attempting to make the victims as whole as possible, or are you trying to argue that a clear line of authority can somehow be drawn to Netanyahu?
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2017 21:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 01:17 |
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:So are we're ignoring the whole "Ethiopian Jews" thing and conflating it wholesale with Israel's treatment of African immigrants and refugees? Yeah, there's no way this is part of the same larger problem of Israel being lovely on human rights of migrants and refugees, no siree
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2017 21:24
|
|
|
Keeshhound posted:Alright, I'll own it: when I first read that guardian article, I assumed there was a clear link between the Israeli government and the forced contraception. I didn't bother to check my assumptions until Ytlaya suggested otherwise. That's incredibly dangerous just from the angle of legitimizing the "it's just more blood libels" defense. The second Israel brought these people over to their country, they became responsible for their well-being. The fact that state-sanctioned medical organisations coerced these women into taking this drug further implicates the Israeli state. And that's all going off of the idea that this was as Ytlaya said, that it was done more or less independently - which, again, doesn't make much sense.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2017 21:41
|
|
|
R. Mute posted:The Ethiopian women in question were given Depo Provera while they were still in transit camps awaiting immigration to Israel and the practice continued in Israel clinics afterwards. The implied threat being that taking the drug was a prerequisite for migration to Israel, the core of the issue. I don't know how these camps were run, how much the Ethiopian and Sudanese governments were involved, but I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to assume that Israeli organisations - and most likely official ones - were present on the ground. They certainly were around when the injections continued in Israel itself. And while the threat of not being allowed to migrate was gone, the earlier threat was just replaced with a fear of deportation/imprisonment/whatever - especially considering how vulnerable these migrants were. I'm sorry, your theory of guilt is "I don't know anything about the situation and have no concrete facts, but I'm pretty sure it's Israel's fault, somehow, also if you put any more effort into understanding what happened than I did you're just muddying the waters?" gently caress you with a spoon, I'm not indulging this; I'm out.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2017 22:31
|
|
|
R. Mute posted:The second Israel brought these people over to their country, they became responsible for their well-being. The fact that state-sanctioned medical organisations coerced these women into taking this drug further implicates the Israeli state. And that's all going off of the idea that this was as Ytlaya said, that it was done more or less independently - which, again, doesn't make much sense. Yeah, i could be wrong; I was just mentioning a vague recollection I had from last time this came up as a "maybe double check this just in case" sorta thing. After looking into this, all I could find was this (from http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.699937): Haaretz posted:State Comptroller Joseph Shapira says in his probe summary that neither the Health Ministry nor health maintenance organizations in Israel had issued instructions to inject the immigrants from Ethiopia with the long-acting contraceptive Depo-Provera. Granted, this is from the state comptroller so it's entirely possible they're just denying it. Regardless, there doesn't seem to be any direct evidence supporting the idea this was an official government policy, though in a case like this the absence of evidence isn't necessarily the evidence of absence. It's probably best just to attack this from the angle of "the fact they thought this was a good idea in the first place is terrible and representative of prevailing attitudes."
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2017 22:36
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Granted, this is from the state comptroller so it's entirely possible they're just denying it. Regardless, there doesn't seem to be any direct evidence supporting the idea this was an official government policy, though in a case like this the absence of evidence isn't necessarily the evidence of absence. It's probably best just to attack this from the angle of "the fact they thought this was a good idea in the first place is terrible and representative of prevailing attitudes." The headline of that article is "Israeli Probe Into Ethiopian Women's Allegations of Forced Birth-control Injections Refused to Hear Complainants' Testimony". That does not bode well for it being a fair and thorough investigation.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2017 22:48
|
|
|
team overhead smash posted:The headline of that article is "Israeli Probe Into Ethiopian Women's Allegations of Forced Birth-control Injections Refused to Hear Complainants' Testimony". That does not bode well for it being a fair and thorough investigation. Circumstantial at best, but I'll gladly take that over someone's gut impressions. Does it say who was running the probe?
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2017 23:01
|
|
|
This isn't an argument about Zionism though, because that ideology would want Ethiopian Jews to have as many children as possible. It's horrific, but thankfully it was only depo provera. It's akin to the marriage laws, feminism, LGBT rights, and similar issues where Zionists are relatively progressive, while anti-Zionist haredim are the ones demanding racial purity and other regressive garbage.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2017 00:00
|
|
|
thought all the posting would be about the fresh load of bombs being dropped tonight, but instead it's pointlessly arguing with someone denying eugenics and genocide are bad :/
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2017 00:02
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:This isn't an argument about Zionism though, because that ideology would want Ethiopian Jews to have as many children as possible. It's horrific, but thankfully it was only depo provera. That assumes that all Zionists see Ethiopian Jews as Jews.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2017 00:03
|
|
|
It's paywalled so I haven't read it, but that has to be the most implausible peace plan so far: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.805747 quote:Peace Plan for a New Era: Israel and Palestine Should Apply to Join the EU
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2017 00:20
|
|
|
Keeshhound posted:I'm sorry, your theory of guilt is "I don't know anything about the situation and have no concrete facts, but I'm pretty sure it's Israel's fault, somehow, also if you put any more effort into understanding what happened than I did you're just muddying the waters?" Now, mr. deep understanding, if you have any alternative theory about how and why these women were coerced into using this birth control that doesn't implicate the Israeli state, I'm all ears. I'm willing to put in the extra effort that I've clearly lacked in my previous posts.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2017 00:26
|
|
|
Israel doesn't meet the the conditions on human rights to get in and if it did it would be ejected in two seconds after being slammed on human rights issues.
|
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2017 00:27
|
|
|
Disinterested posted:Israel doesn't meet the the conditions on human rights to get in and if it did it would be ejected in two seconds after being slammed on human rights issues. Well, I guess you could argue joining the EU would work in the sense that it wouldn't be possible in the first place unless Israel takes the same measures that would be required for any other reasonable peace deal.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2017 00:40
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:It's paywalled so I haven't read it, but that has to be the most implausible peace plan so far: What, so they can trade freely with one another?
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2017 00:52
|
|
|
Disinterested posted:Israel doesn't meet the the conditions on human rights to get in and if it did it would be ejected in two seconds after being slammed on human rights issues. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2017 04:52
|
|
|
420 Gank Mid posted:Yeah, there's no way this is part of the same larger problem of Israel being lovely on human rights of migrants and refugees, no siree Yeah I'm sure you've even read those articles before you posted them.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2017 05:57
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:Yeah I'm sure you've even read those articles before you posted them. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2017 07:40
|
|
|
Cugel the Clever posted:Sadly the EU has been grossly negligent in addressing the hard authoritarian turn taking place throughout its Eastern European member states, so joining the EU might be the best way for right-wing Israelis to get the EU to stop complaining about their abuses Poland and Hungary have a long loving way to go to get to even in the same galaxy as Israel. Don't get me wrong, they're poo poo leeches who flaunt EU's rules while sucking on it's tit, but they aren't a literal colonialist apartheid state who biannually or so murders hundreds or thousands of innocent people. EU and especially Europeans freaking hate Israel, except ironically Bibi has been making inroads with by far the most antisemitic states in the EU. Poland and Hungary. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2017 19:40
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:Poland and Hungary have a long loving way to go to get to even in the same galaxy as Israel. Don't get me wrong, they're poo poo leeches who flaunt EU's rules while sucking on it's tit, but they aren't a literal colonialist apartheid state who biannually or so murders hundreds or thousands of innocent people. EU and especially Europeans freaking hate Israel, except ironically Bibi has been making inroads with by far the most antisemitic states in the EU. Try speaking for yourself instead of an entire loving continent. I understand that surrounding yourself with ultra-left social justice warriors will lead you to believe that the world hates Israel, but those social justice warriors spewing left-wing rhetoric 24/7 are the same people who will tell you that you should sacrifice your imaginary "white male privilege" and GIVE your home free-of-charge to an African/Middle eastern asylum seeker Poland and Hungary are the only countries in the EU with the balls to actually uphold what it means to be European... which simply means actually being European, and not African or Middle Eastern, I would apologise if this is too politically incorrect for you, however I'm simply not sorry and I don't give a gently caress about your feelings. Israel is a country with a population traumatised by a global extermination attempt - who are now surrounded by an entire continent of people who are born and raised to despise them, and you're loving surprised when they've got such a twitchy trigger finger? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2017 23:59
|
|
|
Laserpig posted:Try speaking for yourself instead of an entire loving continent. I understand that surrounding yourself with ultra-left social justice warriors will lead you to believe that the world hates Israel, but those social justice warriors spewing left-wing rhetoric 24/7 are the same people who will tell you that you should sacrifice your imaginary "white male privilege" and GIVE your home free-of-charge to an African/Middle eastern asylum seeker
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 00:19
|
|
|
Lol what does it mean to be european?
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 01:09
|
|
|
It's not racism that baffles me but the idea that something as obviously malleable as culture or geographic location can be fetishized. It's the same impulse that makes idiots buy pallets of nutri-grain bars or something after the kellogs ceo badmouths trump or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 01:15
|
|
|
Ultramega posted:Lol what does it mean to be european? From what I can gather from their post, scapegoating minorities, spewing jingoism and a focus on blood purity. I mean I guess there's some historical prescident there but it's not really what I think of when I think of Europe.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 01:24
|
|
|
Ultramega posted:It's not racism that baffles me but the idea that something as obviously malleable as culture or geographic location can be fetishized. It's the same impulse that makes idiots buy pallets of nutri-grain bars or something after the kellogs ceo badmouths trump or whatever. There's no better/constructive way to put this: can you not see how loving utterly braindead retarded you are to suggest that speaking objectively about a particular ethnic group - is racism? The world has borders, countries are recognised entities, nationality exists as do native populations, this is not loving racism this is simple reality/life/earth. You live in your home, a crab lives in a shell, and Europeans live in Europe, I know... shocking right? When you personally open your own front door to a so-called asylum seeker and allow them to live in your house for free, pay for their expenses, feed them and eventually give them a house of their own - then you'll have the right to speak to Europe as a collective and suggest they do the same with their lands.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 01:49
|
|
|
First eugenics, now white genocide. We really are getting the live ones, aren't we?
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 01:53
|
|
|
Ultramega posted:It's not racism that baffles me but the idea that something as obviously malleable as culture or geographic location can be fetishized. It's the same impulse that makes idiots buy pallets of nutri-grain bars or something after the kellogs ceo badmouths trump or whatever. I mean, European history is basically one long story of people idolizing the little dale where they were born and the good familiar apes they've known all their lives who speak the good language and worship the right god, while snarling in rage and fear at the bad other apes who live in the next dale over and speak with a slightly different accent and wear unfamiliar clothes and worship the wrong god (or the right god in the wrong way), and then killing millions of each other in blood feuds over whose neighborhood has the better people, so...
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 02:05
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:I mean, European history is basically one long story of people idolizing the little dale where they were born and the good familiar apes they've known all their lives who speak the good language and worship the right god, while snarling in rage and fear at the bad other apes who live in the next dale over and speak with a slightly different accent and wear unfamiliar clothes and worship the wrong god (or the right god in the wrong way), and then killing millions of each other in blood feuds over whose neighborhood has the better people, so... Was it ever different anywhere else?
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 02:08
|
|
|
Laserpig posted:There's no better/constructive way to put this: can you not see how loving utterly braindead retarded you are to suggest that speaking objectively about a particular ethnic group - is racism? Personally, I suspect true Frenchmen will never come to accept the hordes of Burgundian and Visigothic peoples crossing over their country's long-established borders. The truth is these ethnic groups are fundamentally irreconcilable and many question whether these foreign vagabonds are even truly the same caliber of human. If we accept their presence now, who knows what violence these barbarians will inflict upon our noble culture? Don't even get me started about those damned Irish dogs.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 02:09
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:Was it ever different anywhere else? Good point. I just meant it's not surprising people like that still exist.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 02:10
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:First eugenics, now white genocide. We really are getting the live ones, aren't we? London population 1939: 8,6 million. (95% White British) London population 2017: 8.6X million. (45% White British) Genocide Noun The deliberate
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 02:16
|
|
|
You'll have to do better than just look at one city where half the buildings are empty because they've been bought by a Russian oligarch or a Saudi emir who never sets foot there.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 02:22
|
|
|
Didn't Britain consciously make all those non-white people British in the 40s as a gambit to hang on to their overseas empire?
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 02:23
|
|
|
where did all the replaced people go 
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 02:23
|
|
|
Cugel the Clever posted:You're putting a surprising amount of effort into your trolling.  Yeah, who know's?
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 02:25
|
|
|
Nebalebadingdong posted:where did all the replaced people go The 60's happened, and then feminism decided to make it cool to murder unborn babies, coincidentally immigrants never adopted the style.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 02:27
|
|
|
Londinium 79AD 85% Roman Briton  Londinium 979AD 10% Roman Briton, 20% Dane, 70% Saxon oh my lord what a disaster, these Saxons they aren't even human!
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 02:30
|
|
|
Laserpig posted:The 60's happened, and then feminism decided to make it cool to murder unborn babies, coincidentally immigrants never adopted the style. you better get to procreating, you got a lot of catching up to do
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 02:32
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:Londinium 79AD 85% Roman Briton Hasn't genetic evidence shown that there aren't huge differences between the English, Scottish, and Irish? Certain people in this thread may not be too happy about it, but Jews and Arabs are very close genetically too. There's this argument that with any conquered civilization, the elites die or are ethnically cleaned, while the plebes just slowly assimilate and convert. (Of course all racists should be burned alive, and it's impossible to draw any meaningful racial distinction between the Middle East and Europe.)
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 02:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 01:17 |
|
|
Look, I'm out of this thread, but before I go please allow me to make something clear. Personally, I live and let live. If I lived in a loving war zone on the other side of the world under the boot of savage dictators and 19/25 of my family had already been bombed into the next life - and then I find out they're eating fresh plump strawberries glazed with melted chocolate after a 16oz medium-rare fillet steak... I'd give a testicle to get here too. I don't blame the Asylum Seekers/Immigrants/Economic Migrants/Refugees or whatever the gently caress they are, I blame the elitist leaders of the EU and their evil, incomprehensible master plan to allow millions upon millions of unchecked people come flooding into Europe - who bring with them incompatible cultures and values, rape and terror statistics in Europe have loving sky rocketed since the African and Syrian "refugee crisis" and if you're going to ignore that, blame it on coincidence, or suggest that it's racism to discuss objective facts then god forbid your wake up call is for you or one of your close loved-ones becoming a victim to this. Laserpig fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Aug 11, 2017 |
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2017 02:42
|
|