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Dross posted:again, the reconstructed me would not know the difference. Dude, he had consciousness while he was a jumble of molecules. That episode essentially established the existence of the soul and showed that it travels with you during teleportation
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Aug 10, 2017 03:19
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Guy Goodbody posted:Dude, he had consciousness while he was a jumble of molecules. That episode essentially established the existence of the soul and showed that it travels with you during teleportation Are we discussing sci-fi or hypothetical real tech? In the former you get to make up the rules.
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Aug 10, 2017 03:24
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I mean, the clone remembers having conciousness, that does not mean the clone is the same person. It's getting philosophical but thats the whole point of the question.
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Aug 10, 2017 03:27
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Guy Goodbody posted:Dude, he had consciousness while he was a jumble of molecules. That episode essentially established the existence of the soul and showed that it travels with you during teleportation yeah, it seems less like you actually get de-atomized and more like you're temporarily out-of-phase with the rest of the universe and then moved to where you need to be because the whole process creates concrete memories, aka there's an intact brain that never stops working, i guess there's another episode where a few crew members were turned into teleporter-ghosts who couldn't be seen or felt because of a transportation accident, i guess that would support the out-of-phase idea - don't ask me what happened to riker when he was twinned tho geez, that show sometimes 
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Aug 10, 2017 03:59
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yeah I eat rear end posted:I have an irrational hatred of every holodeck episode hard counter posted:yeah, it seems less like you actually get de-atomized and more like you're temporarily out-of-phase with the rest of the universe and then moved to where you need to be because the whole process creates concrete memories, aka there's an intact brain that never stops working, i guess there's another episode where a few crew members were turned into teleporter-ghosts who couldn't be seen or felt because of a transportation accident, i guess that would support the out-of-phase idea - don't ask me what happened to riker when he was twinned tho Dross posted:that's not even remotely similar and you're being obtuse for the sake of a metaphysical "whoa dude" Edgar Allen Ho posted:Like yes "I" am a composite of mostly carbon and some other elements, but if you vaporize me and then precisely assemble the same exact atomic composition elsewhere, I'm pretty sure my consciousness is still gone and I'm functionally dead, from my own perspective. My perspective being the oblivion of death. There is still an identical simulacrum of me shitposting on intergalactic forums, but that is of little use to the previous, dead me, who will never experience the post-teleportation life that the new copy does.
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Aug 10, 2017 05:37
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There is no permanent unchanging self but there is still an idea of "me" inside my own mind. A psychic homunculi, if you will. A simulcrum. Fancy words. This idea of me is my soul and my sense of self. Its all the things I identify as me: my subjective experience of being in this fleshly guise, my memories, experuences, all that stuff. But this idea of myself is dependent on the phenomena witnessed by the Ego I, the "Eye". My name, the sensations and perceptions that i perceive, those are just things that the Ego-I-"Eye" watches. They can change but the ego-i-eye remains. Other people have an image of me in their mind, as well. But their idea of me is not the same as my idea of myself. The Ancients knew this. These are the different spirit aspects of ourselves.
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Aug 10, 2017 07:31
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Souls don't exist
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Aug 10, 2017 09:02
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If you want me to step through the teleporter, you're going to have to pay me a lot more than nothing
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Aug 10, 2017 09:08
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Caufman posted:If you want me to step through the teleporter, you're going to have to pay me a lot more than nothing pay your next of kin
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Aug 10, 2017 09:11
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Blue Star posted:My name, the sensations and perceptions that i perceive, those are just things that the Ego-I-"Eye" watches. They can change but the ego-i-eye remains.
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Aug 10, 2017 09:36
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yeah I eat rear end posted:Even the puppets aren't that bad after you get used to them. Pilot for example is a pretty good character. I also like the part about the crackers. Lani Tupu gives a much better performance as Pilot than he does as Crais. It's seriously fantastic. I really like the gradual escalation in Farscape, how they go from ragtag group of nobodies to legendary outlaws to tapdancing in the space UN with a nuke.
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Aug 10, 2017 09:39
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Tiggum posted:Nope. The imaginary you is imagining itself. There's no inner you watching through your eyes, you are the eyes (and the rest of the body). There's nothing at the centre. Your body is not external to you, something that you could escape or transcend, it's you. Entirely. Okay, so explain something like locked-in syndrome. Surely if there were no "you" there as a consciousness, no one would report this documented medical condition.
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Aug 10, 2017 13:36
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Tiggum posted:
That's possible but there is absolutely no science to support it. Is a perfect identical combination of molecules that I have still me? For extra wtf, consider taking a person and then building a perfect copy in the same room, every memory, neuron, molecule, atom is identical. Shoot one in the head. Did you kill someone?
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Aug 10, 2017 15:28
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WampaLord posted:Okay, so explain something like locked-in syndrome. Surely if there were no "you" there as a consciousness, no one would report this documented medical condition. Edgar Allen Ho posted:Is a perfect identical combination of molecules that I have still me? Edgar Allen Ho posted:For extra wtf, consider taking a person and then building a perfect copy in the same room, every memory, neuron, molecule, atom is identical. Shoot one in the head. Did you kill someone?
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Aug 10, 2017 16:11
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Tiggum posted:I don't understand the problem. Locked-in syndrome is just full body paralysis, right? Paralysis is real. What part of that requires a soul (or soul analogue or inner self or whatever you want to call it)? I care because it's a simulacrum, not me. I guess this is hard for goons to grasp but I like being alive and would rather not trade it to a different set of the same atoms.
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Aug 10, 2017 16:31
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Isn't there some creepy Canadian cartoon that discussed this issue Edit: yup https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdxucpPq6Lc
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Aug 10, 2017 16:32
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I care because it's a simulacrum, not me. I guess this is hard for goons to grasp but I like being alive and would rather not trade it to a different set of the same atoms. What's so special about "your" atoms? If you can't perceive any difference in your "new" atoms, who cares? This isn't some "lol goons" thing, you're just getting hung up on some meaningless technicality that would only be an issue if you made it into one in your mind.
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Aug 10, 2017 16:36
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yeah I eat rear end posted:What's so special about "your" atoms? If you can't perceive any difference in your "new" atoms, who cares? This isn't some "lol goons" thing, you're just getting hung up on some meaningless technicality that would only be an issue if you made it into one in your mind. It's not "my" atoms, I'm dead and gone. IDK how this is so hard, people are finite. If you delete me and then re-assemble the same atomic structure, using different, disgusting foreign atoms, that's an exact copy. Copy. The original person is now dead, and not having any experiences. Edgar Allen Ho has a new favorite as of 17:44 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 17:41
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:It's not "my" atoms, I'm dead and gone. By any objective standard, you're perfectly fine, just somewhere else. You're arguing that something you can't prove exists has been killed.
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Aug 10, 2017 17:45
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misogynoir is a bad word. It's an awkwardly forced portmanteau that requires like, the seventeenth word you'd think of when trying to come up with a synonym for black, awkward to say aloud, and can't be turned into a verb or an adjective. The intersection between misogyny and racism is an important issue, and it's a shame that somebody came up with such a terrible word for it and other people accepted it.
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Aug 10, 2017 17:57
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wait, THATS what it means? edit: oh i thought it was a term for "misogynist black person" spit on my clit has a new favorite as of 18:03 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 17:59
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misogyschwartz
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Aug 10, 2017 18:01
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If you assemble a second copy of me I do not begin experiencing the world through the sensory organs of the second copy. It is a separate person. If you destroy the original, my experience ends. To itself or any outside observer the copy is me for all intents and purposes, but it is a separate sentience.
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Aug 10, 2017 18:04
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Dross posted:If you assemble a second copy of me I do not begin experiencing the world through the sensory organs of the second copy. It is a separate person. If you destroy the original, my experience ends. Who cares? We will never, ever get to that level of technology so this is just a philosophical circlejerk.
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Aug 10, 2017 18:07
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Dross posted:If you assemble a second copy of me I do not begin experiencing the world through the sensory organs of the second copy. It is a separate person. If you destroy the original, my experience ends. What is the "I" you think is doing the experiencing? What is it that ends? Without any kind of mystical force, what differentiates the "original" from the "copy"? In what sense is the "copy" not legitimately you?
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Aug 10, 2017 18:09
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yeah I eat rear end posted:Who cares? We will never, ever get to that level of technology so this is just a philosophical circlejerk. Assuming that teleportation even is a level of technology that can be got to seems pretty shakey, imo
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Aug 10, 2017 18:12
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People care because the idea of "self" is a conundrum that has been pondered since literally the dawn of man, and thought experiments like that help. It's not about literally figuring out how teleportation would work.
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Aug 10, 2017 18:15
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Fister Roboto posted:People care because the idea of "self" is a conundrum that has been pondered since literally the dawn of man, and thought experiments like that help. It's not about literally figuring out how teleportation would work. To reiterate, imho the "self" is nothing but your collected experiences, memories and personality. It doesn't matter if it's in a copy, a computer, it's "you". Your atomic makeup is constantly changing, there is nothing special about the atoms making up your body right now. Everything that is "you" is in your brain. If you can transport those things into a different set of atoms making up a brain, then it is still you.
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Aug 10, 2017 18:21
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yeah I eat rear end posted:To reiterate, imho the "self" is nothing but your collected experiences, memories and personality. It doesn't matter if it's in a copy, a computer, it's "you". Your atomic makeup is constantly changing, there is nothing special about the atoms making up your body right now. Everything that is "you" is in your brain. If you can transport those things into a different set of atoms making up a brain, then it is still you. We're literally arguing about the difference between objectivity and subjectivity here. To reiterate, if you make another me, I am not subjectively him.
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Aug 10, 2017 18:24
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Tiggum posted:What is the "I" you think is doing the experiencing? What is it that ends? Without any kind of mystical force, what differentiates the "original" from the "copy"? In what sense is the "copy" not legitimately you? It's me, the sentience typing these words. An exact copy is fine for everyone else but as me, I'd rather keep typing as long as possible. I'd love to pal around with someone who has my exact experiences but they would, still, be a different, independent person. yeah I eat rear end posted:To reiterate, imho the "self" is nothing but your collected experiences, memories and personality. It doesn't matter if it's in a copy, a computer, it's "you". Your atomic makeup is constantly changing, there is nothing special about the atoms making up your body right now. Everything that is "you" is in your brain. If you can transport those things into a different set of atoms making up a brain, then it is still you. So you're fine with me shooting you dead as long as I make a perfect clone first? Edgar Allen Ho has a new favorite as of 18:31 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 18:28
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:So you're fine with me shooting you dead as long as I make a perfect clone first? As long as my clone has all my memories/experiences/personality and doesn't have the memory of the other host dying.
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Aug 10, 2017 18:44
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So what do you think happens while you and your clone are still alive? Do you somehow see through both sets of eyes?
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Aug 10, 2017 19:01
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Guy Goodbody posted:misogynoir is a bad word. It's an awkwardly forced portmanteau that requires like, the seventeenth word you'd think of when trying to come up with a synonym for black, awkward to say aloud, and can't be turned into a verb or an adjective. The intersection between misogyny and racism is an important issue, and it's a shame that somebody came up with such a terrible word for it and other people accepted it. I assumed this was going to be internet slang for opinions on women that belong in old black and white detective stories
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Aug 10, 2017 19:03
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EmmyOk posted:I assumed this was going to be internet slang for opinions on women that belong in old black and white detective stories that would be much more interesting and comedic, so we cant have that
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Aug 10, 2017 19:18
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yeah I eat rear end posted:As long as my clone has all my memories/experiences/personality and doesn't have the memory of the other host dying. RIP in peace other host, sorry about the violent death What would you do if i told you that two identical copies of a thing are not the same thing Edgar Allen Ho has a new favorite as of 19:51 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 19:49
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:RIP in peace other host, sorry about the violent death We're talking an extreme hypothetical here - first we need to be able to perfectly clone someone including all their memories/experiences/personality, and then we need to have a reason to destroy the original one. I would question why it's necessary to kill the other one, since there is no reason why there can't be two of me living (although it would lead to twice as many terrible posts on this forum), but I would feel no attachment to the original host. All the important bits that comprise "me" have lived on, I don't care about the lump of meat I was wearing before.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:52
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yeah I eat rear end posted:We're talking an extreme hypothetical here - first we need to be able to perfectly clone someone including all their memories/experiences/personality, and then we need to have a reason to destroy the original one. I would question why it's necessary to kill the other one, since there is no reason why there can't be two of me living (although it would lead to twice as many terrible posts on this forum), but I would feel no attachment to the original host. All the important bits that comprise "me" have lived on, I don't care about the lump of meat I was wearing before. That's insane Like yes I want to pass on my ideas but otoh I'd rather do it myself rather than doing seppuku and having some copy do it. Are you indifferent on being alive vs dead? If yes then please seek counseling.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:55
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The parts i care about wouldn't die though, which is my whole point.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:56
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yeah I eat rear end posted:We're talking an extreme hypothetical here - first we need to be able to perfectly clone someone including all their memories/experiences/personality, and then we need to have a reason to destroy the original one. I would question why it's necessary to kill the other one, since there is no reason why there can't be two of me living (although it would lead to twice as many terrible posts on this forum), but I would feel no attachment to the original host. All the important bits that comprise "me" have lived on, I don't care about the lump of meat I was wearing before. You are still wearing that lump of meat. That lump of meat is you.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:56
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yeah I eat rear end posted:We're talking an extreme hypothetical here - first we need to be able to perfectly clone someone including all their memories/experiences/personality, and then we need to have a reason to destroy the original one. I would question why it's necessary to kill the other one, since there is no reason why there can't be two of me living (although it would lead to twice as many terrible posts on this forum), but I would feel no attachment to the original host. All the important bits that comprise "me" have lived on, I don't care about the lump of meat I was wearing before. So as long as you don't feel an attachment to somebody, it's ok to have them murdered? If the lumps of meat that aren't you aren't significant, would it be OK to kill literally everybody who isn't you in the universe?
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Aug 10, 2017 19:56
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