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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
| Total: | 229 votes | ||
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Supply and demand is, actually, a thing that's happening. Notice how the wild liberal desperately pulls the conversation to "white working class", erasing the Latinos that suffer under our immigration control regime. Nobody said poo poo about the white working class, dickhead.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:30
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call to action posted:Supply and demand is, actually, a thing that's happening. And net immigration has been zero for years. So again, no, it's not immigration that's takin' ur jerbs.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:30
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Majorian posted:And net immigration has been zero for years. So again, no, it's not immigration that's takin' ur jerbs. My job isn't threatened, actually, because my employer checks status. My neighbors jobs are, though. I get that the whole "empathy for your community" aspect is hard for you, and that Latinos instantly become white racists as soon as they don't agree that their industry should be flooded by people who work for peanuts.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:33
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Also,  Why is immigration both going up and their percentage of the population going up if it's "net zero"
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Aug 10, 2017 19:35
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call to action posted:My job isn't threatened, actually, because my employer checks status. My neighbors jobs are, though. I don't know your neighbors, but I guarantee you, it is not immigration that threatens their jobs. call to action posted:Also, Perhaps because that chart ends at 2007?
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Aug 10, 2017 19:39
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Majorian posted:Not actually a thing that's happening. How can it not be a part of what's happening? Companies abusing illegal immigration in order to fill jobs Americans "won't do" (see: at the poo poo wages they offer) is absolutely having an impact on wages.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:40
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Majorian posted:I don't know your neighbors, but I guarantee you, it is not immigration that threatens their jobs. i will have you know the great recession and the presidency of Barack Obama have never happened
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Aug 10, 2017 19:41
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NewForumSoftware posted:How can it not be a part of what's happening? as of right now, immigration's a net zero. companies are certainly abusing the existence of employees who they can threaten with ICE if it looks like they're acting rowdy, i.e. asking to have any wages or benefits whatsoever, but this suggests the solution of "remove the ICE threat" rather than "build the wall"
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Aug 10, 2017 19:42
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Majorian posted:Not actually a thing that's happening. I'm a chef and that poo poo is 100% definitely happening. I would quibble that low wages are not entirely "due to immigration" and rather that the disgusting norms prevalent in the industry are largely fueled by a preponderance of several million off-the-books workers that can't go to the labor department when their human rights are violated. But, uhhh.... yeah. I have definitely been told to my face by ownership that its cheaper to replace me with two Guatemalans who are 6'5 between the two of them than pay me OT on $12/hr. And I'm in a better place now! There are tiers of the industry you can work in where that doesn't happen quite as much But that definitely happens and it's been the subject of some serious internal headchecking on my part to not let it poison me.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:42
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NewForumSoftware posted:How can it not be a part of what's happening? Wrong, as usual. Undocumented immigrations create more demand, which helps create more jobs and raise wages overall. Other factors are responsible for a lack of jobs and lower wages, particularly automation.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:43
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Ze Pollack posted:as of right now, immigration's a net zero. companies are certainly abusing the existence of employees who they can threaten with ICE if it looks like they're acting rowdy, but this suggests the solution of "remove the ICE threat" rather than "build the wall" what do you mean it's a net zero? it has a net zero impact on wages? I find that hard to believe at best. i know people who work in fields that compete with illegal immigrants and trust me, it has an impact on the wage AND labor standards. Look at what agricultural workers have to put up with. Majorian posted:Wrong, as usual. Undocumented immigrations create more demand, which helps create more jobs and raise wages overall. Other factors are responsible for a lack of jobs and lower wages, particularly automation. lol at posting some lovely newsweek article and just wiping your hands im sorry, illegal immigrants are not creating enough demand for fruits and vegetables to create more jobs than they are taking in the aggregate? sure. but people actually have these jobs and they get screwed and look, I'm not opposed to open borders and amnesty or whatnot, illegal immigration only exists to serve the capitalist class, it does have a negative impact on the American people NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 19:43
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NewForumSoftware posted:lol at posting some lovely newsweek article and just wiping your hands Hmmmm yes, how dare I back up my argument with evidence, instead of relying on right-wing "common sense" about scary Messicans takin' ARR JURBS.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:45
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Majorian posted:Hmmmm yes, how dare I back up my argument with evidence, instead of relying on right-wing "common sense" about scary Messicans takin' ARR JURBS. The article you posted doesn't even disagree with what I'm saying. You see anything that addresses the negative impacts of illegal immigration and go into shriek mode. Again, I don't oppose amnesty or open borders, I just think illegal immigration as it exists today does negatively impact the wages of SOME american workers
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Aug 10, 2017 19:47
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Willie Tomg posted:I'm a chef and that poo poo is 100% definitely happening. I would quibble that low wages are not entirely "due to immigration" and rather that the disgusting norms prevalent in the industry are largely fueled by a preponderance of several million off-the-books workers that can't go to the labor department when their human rights are violated. I mean, this is absolutely a thing that happens, but it happens because the structure of the immigration system means that they enter undocumented and without labor rights, and nationalist garbage like "closing the borders" won't actually fix that problem. Undocumented immigrants are people, people who are often desperate and in search of a job to support themselves. If we want them to become a part of our labor movements and not end up acting as scabs out of desperation, we have to give them legal status and rights and make it so that the people coming here can obtain those things as well. Otherwise we'll continue to have different groups of workers fighting each other for the scraps left behind by the people who own the businesses. quote:and look, I'm not opposed to open borders and amnesty or whatnot, illegal immigration only exists to serve the capitalist class, it does have a negative impact on the American people Yes, but it's the illegal part, not the immigration part.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:47
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Majorian posted:And net immigration has been zero for years. So again, no, it's not immigration that's takin' ur jerbs. And cook's wages have flatlined since the 80's and currently the industry as a whole is in a hiring crisis because the NAFTA wave is aging out of the workforce and for 40 years now the standard practice has been to throw sad Latinos at every problem and most places profit models are set up so they literally cannot afford to jack up plate costs to pay their workers more. This is a colossal, utterly thread-hijacking conversation and one for which I don't really have the time or stamina right now, in no small part because things ARE changing. Slowly and painfully but they are, and in large part because as you point out what is traditionally the culinary labor pool has been net-zero for a minute, but also because of other industry practices (tip-free restaurants being a big one), and its all a massively interconnected shitshow that stretches aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllll the way to agriculture/agribusiness. Willie Tomg fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 19:48
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean, this is absolutely a thing that happens, but it happens because the structure of the immigration system means that they enter undocumented and without labor rights, and nationalist garbage like "closing the borders" won't actually fix that problem. Abso-loving-loutely correct, yes.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:48
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Lightning Knight posted:Yes, but it's the illegal part, not the immigration part. That's all I've been talking about. Like I said, Majoram just jumped into turbo-defense mode the second anyone has the gall to suggest immigration in any way is anything but a benefit. Shouting "well, it works out for the middle class!" is a pretty lovely defense to that.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:49
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The "net immigration is zero" thing isn't supposed to refer to total immigration I thought, only to immigration from Mexico since the recession.NewForumSoftware posted:That's all I've been talking about. Like I said, Majoram just jumped into turbo-defense mode the second anyone has the gall to suggest immigration in any way is anything but a benefit. I would argue that immigration would be entirely a benefit if the system wasn't intentionally designed to create an underclass out of immigrants. Legal immigrants coming here with legal rights to labor protection would be expanding the tax base and creating demand. It's only the fact that they're de facto slaves that is creating the problem.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:51
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Willie Tomg posted:And cook's wages have flatlined since the 80's and the industry and currently the industry as a whole is in a hiring crisis because the NAFTA wave is aging out of the workforce and for 40 years now the standard practice has been to throw sad Latinos at every problem and most places profit models are set up so they literally cannot afford to jack up plate costs to pay their workers more. All right, I may have overplayed my hand in saying that it doesn't happen, but my point is, the culprit here aren't the immigrants. The empirical evidence that exists is pretty clear: illegal immigrants aren't having very much of an effect on the overall job market or wages at all. quote:• “We found little to no negative effects on overall wages and employment of native-born workers in the longer term,” said Francine D. Blau, an economics professor at Cornell University who led the group that produced the 550-page report. As Lightning Knight said (and I expect you agree with him), having a sane immigration system that makes it easier for people seeking work to enter legally, and be protected from exploitation, is the only ethical solution.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:56
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Lightning Knight posted:I would argue that immigration would be entirely a benefit if the system wasn't intentionally designed to create an underclass out of immigrants. Legal immigrants coming here with legal rights to labor protection would be expanding the tax base and creating demand. It's only the fact that they're de facto slaves that is creating the problem. Maybe... but I mean, the labor market as we know it is still subject to supply and demand. I'm not saying it's a big factor, but it's a real one and it's hard to ignore American's real complaints with this. That being said, the solution is to divorce the idea of your work/job determining your value to society. If we're going to insist on a larger population fighting for fewer jobs it's only going to get worse. And I'm not sure you can really blame the people who are forced to participate in those labor markets. Majorian posted:The empirical evidence that exists is pretty clear: illegal immigrants aren't having very much of an effect on the overall job market or wages at all. Are you really too dense to understand we're not talking about the "overall" job market but specific professions that are forced to compete with these workers?
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Aug 10, 2017 19:56
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NewForumSoftware posted:That's all I've been talking about. Like I said, Majoram just jumped into turbo-defense mode the second anyone has the gall to suggest immigration in any way is anything but a benefit. That's not what we were discussing at the time. call to action and I were discussing whether or not it is ethical to close the borders and leave desperate refugees and people trying to escape complete economic deprivation to die. quote:Shouting "well, it works out for the middle class!" is a pretty lovely defense to that. Not a thing I actually said or suggested. NewForumSoftware posted:Are you really too dense to understand we're not talking about the "overall" job market but specific professions that are forced to compete with these workers? You should read the NY Times piece that I posted. Or any of the evidence I posted, instead of just relying on what you view as "common sense."
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Aug 10, 2017 19:57
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Majorian posted:That's not what we were discussing at the time. call to action and I were discussing whether or not it is ethical to close the borders and leave desperate refugees and people trying to escape complete economic deprivation to die. Well maybe you should have read the post you quoted before posting a newsweek article and going "boom, got ya" because I was specifically talking about illegal immigration Majorian posted:Not a thing I actually said or suggested. It actually is when you say things like "well in the 'overall' job market its a net benefit!"
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Aug 10, 2017 19:58
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NewForumSoftware posted:Maybe... but I mean, the labor market as we know it is still subject to supply and demand. I'm not saying it's a big factor, but it's a real one and it's hard to ignore American's real complaints with this. That being said, the solution is to divorce the idea of your work/job determining your value to society. If we're going to insist on a larger population fighting for fewer jobs it's only going to get worse. And I'm not sure you can really blame the people who are forced to participate in those labor markets. Part of the problem is that it's basically impossible to separate out the economics of the situation with the reality that xenophobia and racism play a massive part in how people view the issue. Also in the context of "more people competing for fewer jobs," automation is going to play a much bigger part in that than immigrants will. Automation is bearing down on, what, 40-50% of the labor market in the next 25 years? That poo poo is apocalyptic and everyone is still acting like it's 1970 and outsourcing is the big boogie man.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:59
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Majorian posted:Hmmmm yes, how dare I back up my argument with evidence, instead of relying on right-wing "common sense" about scary Messicans takin' ARR JURBS. You're such a loving racist piece of poo poo, turning this argument into white people concerns constantly and using slurs against Latinos. We get it man, you don't know anyone but white people (or are scared of brown people) and thus you haven't talked to a chef or lawn maintenance worker who is ABSOLUTELY concerned about job competition.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:59
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Lightning Knight posted:Part of the problem is that it's basically impossible to separate out the economics of the situation with the reality that xenophobia and racism play a massive part in how people view the issue. Also in the context of "more people competing for fewer jobs," automation is going to play a much bigger part in that than immigrants will. Automation is bearing down on, what, 40-50% of the labor market in the next 25 years? That poo poo is apocalyptic and everyone is still acting like it's 1970 and outsourcing is the big boogie man. I agree, and that's why I said the only solution is to fix the underlying issue of work being tied to your wellbeing. Once that's resolved immigration will be a much easier pill to swallow for the workers competing with immigrants. Majorian posted:You should read the NY Times piece that I posted. Or any of the evidence I posted, instead of just relying on what you view as "common sense." lol at you continuing to post garbage fake news articles like anyone gives a gently caress
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Aug 10, 2017 20:00
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NewForumSoftware posted:It actually is when you say things like "well in the 'overall' job market its a net benefit!" Mmmm yes, when I say "the job market overall benefits from immigration," I'm only talking about the middle class, which is totally what the studies I cited say. Brilliant, NFS, you've cracked the code. call to action posted:You're such a loving racist piece of poo poo Turn on your monitor.
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Aug 10, 2017 20:00
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Ze Pollack posted:i will have you know the great recession and the presidency of Barack Obama have never happened We'd be far better off if that was the truth.
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Aug 10, 2017 20:01
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Majorian posted:Mmmm yes, when I say "the job market overall benefits from immigration," I'm only talking about the middle class, which is totally what the studies I cited say. Brilliant, NFS, you've cracked the code. Do you know why they say "overall"? Who do you think the winners and losers are in that equation? Why do you think they even use the word overall? It's almost as if there are pro's and con's that can be weighed against each other 
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Aug 10, 2017 20:01
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NewForumSoftware posted:Do you know why they say "overall"? Who do you think the winners and losers are in that equation? Well, if you read the NYT piece, you'll see that it's not most of the working class that's losing. Again, look at the evidence. Don't go with just what your common sense tells you.
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Aug 10, 2017 20:02
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NewForumSoftware posted:Do you know why they say "overall"? Who do you think the winners and losers are in that equation? I mean this reminds me of the "free trade benefits the overall economy" concept, which is technically true but misses the larger reality that the people who missed out become very mad and also vote and also don't have a good enough grasp on the situation to not simplify it to "Chinese people bad."
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Aug 10, 2017 20:03
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Majorian posted:Well, if you read the NYT piece, you'll see that it's not most of the working class that's losing. I can't believe I just opened that stupid article to scroll through and see literally nothing address what anyone is saying. illegal immigration negatively impacts the wages and labor standards of farm workers there. now post the nyt article telling you otherwise Lightning Knight posted:I mean this reminds me of the "free trade benefits the overall economy" concept, which is technically true but misses the larger reality that the people who missed out become very mad and also vote and also don't have a good enough grasp on the situation to not simplify it to "Chinese people bad." it's literally exactly the same, down to the capitalist class pushing some stupid 'the economy being good is good for you' while the 1% clean up 99% of the gains in income while the poor get hosed
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Aug 10, 2017 20:03
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call to action posted:If the construction workers and cooks of the country get to have their wages driven into the ground due to immigration, the pain should be equally spread. Either close the borders (except for family, probably) or open the floodgates, the current "poor people get the downsides of immigration while rich people get the upsides" thing is bullshit. So "yes". As someone who's worked in tech, the people complaining about H-1B abuse are the same people who will tell you how Trump should build the wall to keep the Mexicans out. They sound a lot like you, frankly. I agree we should have a coherent immigration policy for all income levels. I don't think that means 100% open borders but I do think that both accepting refugees and enforcing fair wages is the ethical path. Employers paying undocumented immigrants pennies to pick tomatoes ought to go to jail.
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Aug 10, 2017 20:04
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im sick and tired of being called a nazi by Majorjam
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Aug 10, 2017 20:06
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Calibanibal posted:im sick and tired of being called a nazi by Majorjam i don't get why he comes in here to pretend like he's a reformed bad dem only to browbeat us with lovely new york times articles about how smart he is "hey guys look at this dumb thing the trump thread said, lmao!"
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Aug 10, 2017 20:06
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Immigration policy has no relation to labor, apparently.
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Aug 10, 2017 20:08
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Here's my immigration policy:quote:People may need societies, but they do not necessarily need 'nations'. Take that for what you will.
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Aug 10, 2017 20:10
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NewForumSoftware posted:I can't believe I just opened that stupid article to scroll through and see literally nothing address what anyone is saying. You do realize that farm workers do not make up the entirety of the working class, I hope? Per the NYT summary: quote:Giovanni Peri, an economist at the University of California, Davis, has written a series of influential papers comparing the labor markets in states with high immigration levels to those with low ones. He concluded that undocumented workers do not compete with skilled laborers — instead, they complement them. Economies, as Adam Smith argued in “Wealth of Nations,” work best when workers become specialized and divide up tasks among themselves. Pedro Chan’s ability to take care of routine tasks on a work site allows carpenters and electricians to focus on what they do best. In states with more undocumented immigrants, Peri said, skilled workers made more money and worked more hours; the economy’s productivity grew. From 1990 to 2007, undocumented workers increased legal workers’ pay in complementary jobs by up to 10 percent.
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Aug 10, 2017 20:10
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Christ, don't subject posters to the stigma of permanent sin. Majorian has been consistently one of the most productive posters itt, and just because you don't agree with one of his points of view, you don't have to slander him as a traitor and a right wing reactionary plant.
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Aug 10, 2017 20:11
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In fact you can hardly call yourself a socialist if your reaction to dissent is to lash out and call for excluding people, instead of trying to foster a dialogue.
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Aug 10, 2017 20:12
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Majorian posted:You do realize that farm workers do not make up the entirety of the working class, I hope?
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Aug 10, 2017 20:12
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