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I haven't read Chuubo's, but Jenna Moran's games can't possibly qualify as the closet-drama-iest in a world where any number of fantasy heartbreakers exist just to show off someone's ~fantasy worldbuilding~. I'm still not clear on how to play Nobilis, but I'm pretty sure I could figure it out given a reasonable effort; I can't say the same for Eoris and its many cousins.
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Aug 10, 2017 21:23
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Covok posted:That's the inevitable problem for a generic system with moderate to severe amount of crunch and no supplements built for particular genre. Imagine trying to run Savage World using only the $10 book and you'd run into the same problem. quote:I once knew a guy who tried to run Anime:Beyond Fantasy. My roommate was in the game. I looked at that character sheet and all I can think is "you made a mistake."  
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Aug 10, 2017 21:26
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Yawgmoth posted:That's pretty much how I felt about it. It's less "here is a game to play" and 100% "here are some mechanics I wrote, maybe you can use them to make a game if you don't get sick of my editorializing first!" Works for me, since I want to make a game and the mechanics are decently good. I think we'll just be excising the Kit concept, since there's really not a good way to get it to mesh with the combat mechanics without really heavily rewriting a bunch of them. Even without those a starting character is still choosing an Origin, Background, Class, Role, and a feat or two, so dropping Kits just makes sense. Halloween Jack posted:AFAIK the only bad thing about Savage Worlds is people on forums insisting it's FAST AND FURIOUS, whatever that means. One of the weirdest things to me about Immortal: The Invisible War is how it's got a ton of color pages, and those pages are often used for raw text lists. So you'll be reading along in black and white, looking at black and white crazy art (and yes, a lot of also insane color art), and then suddenly you're looking at a bright yellow glossy page that's just a glossary of terms or skill list. theironjef fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 21:35
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Halloween Jack posted:AFAIK the only bad thing about Savage Worlds is people on forums insisting it's FAST AND FURIOUS, whatever that means. Also the combat lends itself to a pretty high system mastery ceiling, much like optimizing a fighter in 3.x. Just replace feats with edges. With combat about as varied, as you spam your optimized trick over and over. And the healing rules make the game as gritty as Fate is pulpy. Which can be fine if that's what you're looking for.
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Aug 10, 2017 21:36
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theironjef posted:Works for me, since I want to make a game and the mechanics are decently good. I think we'll just be excising the Kit concept, since there's really not a good way to get it to mesh with the combat mechanics without really heavily rewriting a bunch of them. Even without those a starting character is still choosing an Origin, Background, Class, Role, and a feat or two, so dropping Kits just makes sense. Kits are also totally optional, so dropping them is super easy. Having run a game with Kits and a game without, I gotta say I prefer the game without them.
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Aug 10, 2017 21:37
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I feel like Kits would probably be better replaced with some noncombat Feat system that operates parallel to normal Feat advancement, so you aren't locked into one specific concept. I know getting locked in is part of the point, but they're effectively very loose Feat trees already.
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Aug 10, 2017 22:11
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Halloween Jack posted:You know a game's going to be...memorable when the character sheet looks like the TimeCube guy hired a graphic designer.
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Aug 10, 2017 22:11
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I'm in a group that runs 3.x and Fragged Empires, with me DMing the latter. Most of the group is new to ttgs in general. I don't have the physical book so I've mostly used print outs and just told them how stuff works. So far, I'm finding they're learning it and sticking to it a lot easier then 3.x; the way the character sheets are organized is perfect (page 1 non-combat, page 2 combat, page 3 reference sheet), and looking stuff up is, as has been mentioned, practically what the game book was designed for. While it's not entirely easy to learn how everything in the game works just by reading it, god it makes teaching others and generally running the game so much faster and simpler. That there's an actual straight up reference pdf with all the "lists" for gear or ships or traits just means leveling up is a snap.
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Aug 10, 2017 22:25
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theironjef posted:Works for me, since I want to make a game and the mechanics are decently good. I think we'll just be excising the Kit concept, since there's really not a good way to get it to mesh with the combat mechanics without really heavily rewriting a bunch of them. Even without those a starting character is still choosing an Origin, Background, Class, Role, and a feat or two, so dropping Kits just makes sense. quote:One of the weirdest things to me about Immortal: The Invisible War is how it's got a ton of color pages, and those pages are often used for raw text lists. So you'll be reading along in black and white, looking at black and white crazy art (and yes, a lot of also insane color art), and then suddenly you're looking at a bright yellow glossy page that's just a glossary of terms or skill list. But then there are still times when the use of glossy full-colour makes little sense. I think the portraits for the Prides are all repeated twice, once in B&W and once in colour.
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Aug 10, 2017 22:31
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Halloween Jack posted:I agree that Fragged Empire is easy to reference, but kind of tricky to learn. The tripping point for me was gear. I think gear looks complicated, but actually isn't that bad. Wade Dyer tends to use a lot of shorthand with mechanics, so the lists look really complex or like there are a ton of different things you need to know, but once you get a handle on the abbreviations it's pretty simple. For example, a gun is a base model (which determines base stats) and a variation, done. You can add modifications if you have the resources/spare time and they just adjust the stats, but at least up front you're probably just going to have the base model and the variation to think about. Outfits are the same way. It's a modular system that seems really complex but there aren't actually that many moving parts when you break it all down. ProfessorCirno posted:I'm in a group that runs 3.x and Fragged Empires, with me DMing the latter. Most of the group is new to ttgs in general. I don't have the physical book so I've mostly used print outs and just told them how stuff works. So far, I'm finding they're learning it and sticking to it a lot easier then 3.x; the way the character sheets are organized is perfect (page 1 non-combat, page 2 combat, page 3 reference sheet), and looking stuff up is, as has been mentioned, practically what the game book was designed for. While it's not entirely easy to learn how everything in the game works just by reading it, god it makes teaching others and generally running the game so much faster and simpler. That there's an actual straight up reference pdf with all the "lists" for gear or ships or traits just means leveling up is a snap. I've been interested to read people's experiences playing/running Fragged Empire, because I'm going to start a game of that at the end of the month. I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of it, but I'm curious what to expect from how it actually plays out.
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Aug 10, 2017 22:37
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Harrow posted:I've been interested to read people's experiences playing/running Fragged Empire, because I'm going to start a game of that at the end of the month. I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of it, but I'm curious what to expect from how it actually plays out. I'm interested too. Have you found any good APs (preferably podcast rather than video) that use the final rules?
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Aug 10, 2017 22:44
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Rules clarity was definitely an important part of the process when designing Chuubo, and you certainly aren't expected to have read Nobilis (honestly, they aren't at all similar in practice, at least to me). Everything Jenna writes is as clear as she was able to make it. If it doesn't work out for a lot of people, it's because Jenna's idea of what constitutes a logical order of information is really different from most people. She tends to see everything as part of a single "flow" of book and I'm not sure that it works out if you try to read it like a White Wolf splatbook.* It would be nice if we had four editors but honestly RPG budgets generally have room for less than one. * my outline for Nobilis 4e is structured to be like a White Wolf corebook but we'll see how that goes
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Aug 10, 2017 22:56
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Wait, Cirno's playing 3e? Never would have guessed.
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Aug 10, 2017 23:16
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Harrow posted:I think gear looks complicated, but actually isn't that bad. Wade Dyer tends to use a lot of shorthand with mechanics, so the lists look really complex or like there are a ton of different things you need to know, but once you get a handle on the abbreviations it's pretty simple. Yeah. gear looks complex because it's all tied to Resources and because there's so many options and mods to stick on things, and it's all presented in list format, but once you realize how few of those various options actually apply to your gun, it gets way easier. There's big lists for gun variants and chemical variants and shell variants and all that...and you're pretty much only going to be using one of those. quote:I've been interested to read people's experiences playing/running Fragged Empire, because I'm going to start a game of that at the end of the month. I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of it, but I'm curious what to expect from how it actually plays out. We have a thread you can ask questions at if this next bit doesn't help! So, as I basically only own pdfs for everything now, I wanted to make some real life props (sorta, I'm busy with life and also lazy) to help out. What I did was, for each of the eight species, I printed out their "main" picture and one page details (you know, the stuff from the start of the book) and stapled them together, then printed out the full species right up and put it in a manila folder underneath. It's kinda goofy, but I felt presenting the picture first, then one page write up, was a good intro to each of the species, and if they were interested, they could grab the folder to flip through it. I went over the stats, told them what each was for pretty broadly ("Strength is for using big heavy armor, big heavy weapons, and punching real hard. Reflexes is for hiding in stealth and dodging attacks. Focus is mostly used for sniping."), as well as how high stats could be used in non-combat situations. Same with skills - most were self explanatory, though there's always questions about what falls under which social skills (like Intimidate being under Leadership). After that, I ran sort of a tutorial mission. We went through the free Ghost Ship Carthage adventure with a bit afterwards where they had to escape from a space station and steal a ship on their way out (thus giving them a ship), showcasing rules as I went - so first fight was theater of mind, second was full grid, for example. Likewise, their big escape scene on the ship I did theater of mind to ease them into rules gently as I could, and it ended with them on their ship in the Haven system in need of cash. Which, you know, is how a lot of Fragged Empire games begin! We actually did traits after the tutorial mission, because that's also where I told them they could change out any of their stats if they didn't like how they worked out. Way I have it set up, first three levels, if they don't like stuff, they can change it on demand. After that, it goes to Retros. My goal was for them to get some practice using the rules before diving into the deeper end of things, and to see how their characters worked with their stats and then letting them change stuff up if it wasn't satisfying. Likewise, gear was done half-way through, and not on the first day, since I didn't want to overload them with rules rules rules right off the bat. EDIT: rumble in the bunghole posted:Wait, Cirno's playing 3e? Never would have guessed. Wasn't my idea ;p. And you can carve a good game out of 3e, uh, sorta, though it's gonna be work for the DM, but hey - I ain't the one DMing that, and 3.x was his idea. My rule is no 5e. Not even for mechanical reasons, there.
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Aug 10, 2017 23:23
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What RPGs have good boxed sets? Things that come with themed dice/maps/screens. I bought the Mouse Guard one and its neat, even has cards for equipment and status effects.
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Aug 10, 2017 23:46
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ProfessorCirno posted:We have a thread you can ask questions at if this next bit doesn't help! Oh hey, I didn't know there was a Fragged Empire thread. Sweet. Thanks for the overview--one thing I'm trying to figure out is how best to get started. I don't know what kind of characters my players are going to make yet, so it's probably too early to even think about that, but it's good to know there's a good starter adventure I can use if nothing else seems right.
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Aug 10, 2017 23:47
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Wait, there's a Fragged Empire thread? Since when?
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Aug 10, 2017 23:53
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Since June I guess.
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Aug 10, 2017 23:54
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Rand Brittain posted:Rules clarity was definitely an important part of the process when designing Chuubo, and you certainly aren't expected to have read Nobilis (honestly, they aren't at all similar in practice, at least to me). Having run Chuubo, I'd say that while I found the book very clear it felt an awful lot like I was still missing a huge chunk of information and that information was someone's entire life. Like, poring over Nobilis and Hitherby Dragons* helped me understand Chuubo in the sense that it helped me understand Jenna's outlook and approach to writing games, and I felt like the more I knew about that the more I could see of the big picture that Chuubo was giving me a letterbox into. *I also pored over Unclean Legacy, but mainly because I loving love Unclean Legacy.
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Aug 10, 2017 23:55
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Doorknob Slobber posted:What RPGs have good boxed sets? Things that come with themed dice/maps/screens. I bought the Mouse Guard one and its neat, even has cards for equipment and status effects.
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Aug 11, 2017 00:00
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potatocubed posted:Having run Chuubo, I'd say that while I found the book very clear it felt an awful lot like I was still missing a huge chunk of information and that information was someone's entire life. Like, poring over Nobilis and Hitherby Dragons* helped me understand Chuubo in the sense that it helped me understand Jenna's outlook and approach to writing games, and I felt like the more I knew about that the more I could see of the big picture that Chuubo was giving me a letterbox into. Hm! I'd be interested in any detailed feedback you might have into exactly what that means to you!
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Aug 11, 2017 00:04
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Covok posted:It amazes me how much people refuse to read the loving manual then blame the game. I mean, I guess its left over from playing bad and broken systems (various flavors of D&D and WoD mostly) for so long that GMs approach every game assuming it's going to need some extensive houseruling and modifying before you even start your first session.
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Aug 11, 2017 00:05
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FMguru posted:I'm always amazed at GMs who start hacking the rules without even attempting to run it or even finish reading the manual. It's like they think the real job of the GM is to tweak and modify and rewrite the rules. I see this poo poo in board games too, like people who lose and say "dang, it seems like [strategy] is really strong, maybe too strong, what if--". motherfucker until you clock 40+ games of something don't tell me what isn't up to snuff unless you're the god king of game design. i've probably played 20 games of Keyflower, where each game takes 1-2.5 hours depending on player count and newness of players, and i'm still surprising myself with rules interactions and strategies.
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Aug 11, 2017 00:19
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PbtA is almost unique in its ability to inspire people to write hacks of it without reading the whole book first. They just fall in love with the concept of Playbooks, Moves, and the 2d6 mechanic and go hog wild. Worst example I can think of is still that Battle Royale/Hunger Games failed Kickstarter that had like 17 basic moves. Edit: I mean, I'm happy to explain to someone who's only played "traditional" RPGs before why Monsterhearts doesn't have a Blood Meter or a table of weapon stats. But you gotta absorb that before you presume to write a game. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Aug 11, 2017 |
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Aug 11, 2017 00:27
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I was pretty taken aback at how quickly the AW thread turned into hack-swapping, yeah.
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Aug 11, 2017 00:29
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FMguru posted:I'm always amazed at GMs who start hacking the rules without even attempting to run it or even finish reading the manual. It's like they think the real job of the GM is to tweak and modify and rewrite the rules. What I've seen a lot of over the years is people trying to run a game before they finish reading/understanding the rules, then when something's confusing, or seems dumb, or doesn't work, instead of looking it up and trying to figure out they'll slap in a makes-sense patch based on whatever other game they already know. It's less "my job is to rewrite the rules" and more "I'm not reading all that poo poo, I already know how to play RPGs"
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Aug 11, 2017 00:39
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They might be communicated in a way that's hard to understand but Jenna Moran is a genius at game mechanics.
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Aug 11, 2017 00:40
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AlphaDog posted:"I'm not reading all that poo poo, I already know how to play RPGs"
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Aug 11, 2017 00:46
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Subjunctive posted:I was pretty taken aback at how quickly the AW thread turned into hack-swapping, yeah. This is pretty much the way any longterm discussion thread about a game people are hype about goes though, it's not really unique to *World in that regard.
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Aug 11, 2017 00:47
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Kai Tave posted:This is pretty much the way any longterm discussion thread about a game people are hype about goes though, it's not really unique to *World in that regard. It felt so fast, though. More than half the posts in an early run of 10+ pages were custom moves and critiques of "Garfield but PbtA". Way more discussion of that than of the game itself or play experiences.
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Aug 11, 2017 00:49
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Evil Mastermind posted:This is the one I've seen more often. There seem to be a lot of people who won't approach a new RPG on its own terms, and instead try to shoehorn in D&D mechanics for no other reason that to make the new game D&D. And if you're just going to do that for every new game you play, why bother playing anything new? I really don't think the people who do that are trying to make the new game D&D (or WoD, or GURPS, or loving Shadowrun of all things). The appeal of a new game is usually setting or theme based, and I don't think it's a stretch to say that most people don't think about the actual mechanics very much, especially those who've only ever played one system. So they think "I'm sick of medieval elves and wizards, let's do undead cowboys instead", but then they try to read the rulebook and it's long and complicated and nothing's the same as what they know so they just skim it because they're excited to start playing. poo poo gets weird or confusing or dumb and they go with what they already know to keep the game moving along and honestly it's fine because everyone else is in the same "I only ever played AD&D" boat and this game's fun too. Then before they know it they've been "running Deadlands" for a year and a new player joins and asks what's going on with using 1d10 low roll wins for initiative and they think oh poo poo, I actually know nothing about this game and trot out some bullshit about houserules and how it's better like this.
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Aug 11, 2017 01:10
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Doorknob Slobber posted:What RPGs have good boxed sets? Things that come with themed dice/maps/screens. I bought the Mouse Guard one and its neat, even has cards for equipment and status effects. Surprisingly enough, Pathfinder actually has a pretty good starter box, indeed it streamlines Pathfinder's rules pretty well, which makes it a shame that Paizo isn't interested in expanding it out into a full game(although there is some good fan support for it that handles a lot of that) ImpactVector posted:Gamma World owns, though it's getting kind of rare. It comes with a pile of player+monster pogs and a bunch of the cards it uses for abilities/gear. Yeah Gamma World 7e is most excellent
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Aug 11, 2017 01:32
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drrockso20 posted:Yeah Gamma World 7e is most excellent I've played it once and it was fantastic. I went home from that session and bought the box and never got to play it again.
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Aug 11, 2017 01:36
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potatocubed posted:Having run Chuubo, I'd say that while I found the book very clear it felt an awful lot like I was still missing a huge chunk of information and that information was someone's entire life. Like, poring over Nobilis and Hitherby Dragons* helped me understand Chuubo in the sense that it helped me understand Jenna's outlook and approach to writing games, and I felt like the more I knew about that the more I could see of the big picture that Chuubo was giving me a letterbox into. Yeah, I've been considering getting Chuubo's, and from everything I see it's really The Jenna Moran Masterclass: The Game. I really respect the degree to which her designs are so personal, even though it tends to mean I either bounce off her stuff (Nobilis, so far, although I really mean to give that another shot; some of the Hitherby storylines; her Fair-Folk-based Exalted material) or find it completely enthralling (her Malfeas and Sidereal material for Exalted, other Hitherby storylines, Unclean Legacy). ... great, now I feel like I need to go buy a hard copy of Unclean Legacy as a gift for my past self, who once legitimately discussed printing and spiral-binding bootleg copies with a similarly-obsessed friend of mine. Those were some weird days.
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Aug 11, 2017 02:41
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In Dr. Moran's defense with regard to Chuubo's clarity, page 8's high-level one-page overview of the system is solid gold and every vaguely complicated RPG should have one of those. The problem is everything else.
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Aug 11, 2017 03:16
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Every time d20 clones get brought up, Fantasy Craft always gets mentioned as being the best of the lot, and every time I get an urge to sit down and start learning the game. I'm writing down my commitment to try and make sample characters for it, as part of the effort.
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Aug 11, 2017 03:30
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Evil Mastermind posted:This is the one I've seen more often. There seem to be a lot of people who won't approach a new RPG on its own terms, and instead try to shoehorn in D&D mechanics for no other reason that to make the new game D&D. And if you're just going to do that for every new game you play, why bother playing anything new? I'm just going to relink this cuz it's so well summarizes this phenomenon. They went to go play a new game but because it was vaguely D&D they had a back port in everything from +1 magical items to AC: Covok posted:They would constantly talk about playing purposely bad games just to see how badly they could break it, but it always sound like that only happened because they didn't understand what the gently caress they were doing. Like, they wanted to play dungeon world. I offered my roommate my copy of the book. He was the game master. He refused repeatedly. I told him you can't just run it from the player packet and there are a lot of specific things that you need to know about the game because it doesn't run like most role playing games. He told me I was stupid and he can handle it. Someone else brought up the fact that most people do different games for settings. I can confirm this from personal experience where whenever I try to pitch a new game the guy who actually DM that dungeon World game and broke it would ask me what the setting was and how is different from D&D. When I tried to pitch 13th Age, his response was to think I was stupid for playing a game because of the rules and not because the setting was different since, to him, "the rules don't matter and anything can be handled by a good GM and any system so why every play it for the system?" More than a few times when I play the game online, I've had players question my desire to learn the game when we run into problems. I often tell him that I try to run as close to possible to rules as written my first time running a game to see if it needs to be hacked( I have exceptions as I get into below) and people find that odd. I remember one player was weirded out and explain to me how heavily they hacked their own games to make them work as a way of telling me to not try running games rules as written. The thing is, I can actually decently make a game if I want to. I'm no Master but I have some experience. So when I buy a game, I do so hoping it does the job without me needing to do anything because otherwise I might as well make my own game and make some money off it. That's why I made chanbara: all the other Samurai games didn't seem fun. So, when I want to play a game like masks, I hope it does the job without me having to fix anything because why play it if I have to heavily hack it? FMguru posted:I'm always amazed at GMs who start hacking the rules without even attempting to run it or even finish reading the manual. It's like they think the real job of the GM is to tweak and modify and rewrite the rules. Sometimes, I can get it but most of the times it's unnecessary. I think some mechanics are inherently bad because I believe game design exists so sometimes it makes sense to change the one bit of bad game design you can tell is bad. For example, both numenera and legend of the elements have a mechanic where XP is also fate points. That makes an annoying situation where people constantly have to sacrifice short term gains for long term gains and really fucks over people who use them as fate points. As such, I automatically change that to split those two types of points in games that I played with this bad mechanic, if the rest of the game is good to play once I fixed it. Halloween Jack posted:PbtA is almost unique in its ability to inspire people to write hacks of it without reading the whole book first. They just fall in love with the concept of Playbooks, Moves, and the 2d6 mechanic and go hog wild. A funny anecdote: that guy once tried to give me advice on one of my pbta projects from a place of Authority. Now I appreciate any help I can get but it was very weird when he told me to look at his hack for advice and an example and when I saw it had to do flip the script and give him advice. I mean, I still appreciate his desire to help but it was funny when he told me I need more basic moves and told me to look at his hack and when I saw he had like 17 to go " oh, I think actually you need less." Subjunctive posted:I was pretty taken aback at how quickly the AW thread turned into hack-swapping, yeah. Yeah, there is a good reason why we split that into an apocalypse world only thread and a thread only for hacks. It got out of hand way quick and this is coming from someone who probably contributed to that. I think this is just what happens though when any game takes off. I swear the same thing happen with D20 and fate. gradenko_2000 posted:Every time d20 clones get brought up, Fantasy Craft always gets mentioned as being the best of the lot, and every time I get an urge to sit down and start learning the game. You know, I think you would like it. You like ad&d and this does go for that kind of rule for everything Dungeon Crawl setup but with a lot more polish and a lot tighter mechanics.
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Aug 11, 2017 04:03
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AlphaDog posted:I've played it once and it was fantastic. I went home from that session and bought the box and never got to play it again. Did you buy the two expansions? Also take this as a sign that you should run it yourself gradenko_2000 posted:Every time d20 clones get brought up, Fantasy Craft always gets mentioned as being the best of the lot, and every time I get an urge to sit down and start learning the game. It is pretty great, two major weaknesses it has; 1) they never released a proper bestiary for it, so it's a little lacking in that area 2) by core rules magic users are actually kinda underwhelming
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Aug 11, 2017 04:11
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Covok posted:Someone else brought up the fact that most people do different games for settings. I can confirm this from personal experience where whenever I try to pitch a new game the guy who actually DM that dungeon World game and broke it would ask me what the setting was and how is different from D&D. When I tried to pitch 13th Age, his response was to think I was stupid for playing a game because of the rules and not because the setting was different since, to him, "the rules don't matter and anything can be handled by a good GM and any system so why every play it for the system?" quote:The DM I hate is some guy people keep talking about. Shut up about a good DM. Seriously, though, if you feel the need to hack a game into new and exciting shapes because it's "easier" than learning the game you're playing, why bother using that game? Why bother using any game at all, for that matter?
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Aug 11, 2017 04:12
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Evil Mastermind posted:Do You Know that Good DM People Talk About? I Hate that Guy Inertia. It's simple lazy inertia. The guy just started with 3rd edition D&D and treated as if it's the platonic ideal role playing game. And that is pretty common in this Hobby. Many of us here are unique in that we constantly play different games and recognize the importance of the system itself and how it influences and enhances gameplay. However, this ideology seems to be getting more common. I think the influx of indie games has led to more people recognizing that specialized games for particular play styles means that system matters and can make your game better. Sure, there are still those who don't think that way. Like my friend who was confused why I thought it was weird that Will Wheaton use the age system for his game when it was clear he'd be happier with a more narrative Focus system considering how he runs games. My friend retorted that, if they were having fun, "why would it matter?" Not getting that if they use the system closer to the play style they want then they'd have even more fun and have to fight the system less to get their desired experience. But, that seems less and less common in its own ways. Unfortunately, I feel that 5e is going to start a whole new wave of people who don't get it that we'll all have to deal with because they'll think 5e is the platonic ideal role playing game.
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Aug 11, 2017 04:25
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