Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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B | 77 | 25.50% | |
K | 160 | 52.98% | |
M | 65 | 21.52% | |
Total: | 229 votes |
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Reik posted:I feel like this would be viewing the actions of a dog ethically. Yes dogs behave similar to humans in some ways, but you can't treat them as ethical actors. You have to keep them on a leash when you take em outside. Dogs are not socially constructed by humans though. We built them and operate them, ultimately humans are responsible for the results. Why shouldn't we judge how ethical corporations are? There are entire fields of study dedicated to 'corporate ethics' and you're one of the first people I've seen to actually come out and say 'actually, corporations cannot be judged ethically, only legally'
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:01 |
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# ? May 24, 2024 21:08 |
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WampaLord posted:And that's what we were trying to discuss and you went all "But my jooooooooooooooooooob!" I said my job was no more or less ethical, which I still believe and is consistent with my statements. Not my fault the thread lost its loving mind.
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:01 |
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Reik posted:I said my job was no more or less ethical, which I still believe and is consistent with my statements. Not my fault the thread lost its loving mind. Is there any job that you could take that even could be less ethical?
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:02 |
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NewForumSoftware posted:Dogs are not socially constructed by humans though. We built them and operate them, ultimately humans are responsible for the results. I think owners should be held responsible for their animals. If you're a lovely owner and your dog bites and kills someone welcome to jail town.
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:03 |
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Reik posted:I think owners should be held responsible for their animals. If you're a lovely owner and your dog bites and kills someone welcome to jail town. Ok now what if your dog is a large group of people capable of independent thought Do you bear no responsibility if you didn't make the order?
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:03 |
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NewForumSoftware posted:Is there any job that you could take that even could be less ethical? Any number of varieties of law enforcement.
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:05 |
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NewForumSoftware posted:Is there any job that you could take that even could be less ethical? As long as I'm not breaking the law or violating regulations it's all the same to me. Whether you think that means I think more highly of health insurers than you or I think less highly of every other corporation I guess that's up to you to decide? I do support healthcare overhaul, so I can't think that highly of the current system.
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:05 |
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NewForumSoftware posted:Ok now what if your dog is a large group of people capable of independent thought I'm not quite sure what we're arguing here. If a CEO made a lovely but legal choice do I think they should be held responsible? NewForumSoftware posted:So you see no ethical difference between say, Xe and Amnesty International? Maybe not the best example, but pick your favorite 5013c I think there will be corporations that are more ethical, but I don't expect corporations to be ethical, if that makes sense. Reik fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Aug 10, 2017 |
# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:11 |
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Reik posted:As long as I'm not breaking the law or violating regulations it's all the same to me. Why is that your bar to meet? What if the laws are terrible and unjust? Do you think slave catchers were also ethical? Reik posted:I think there will be corporations that are more ethical, but I don't expect corporations to be ethical, if that makes sense. So given that, would working for a more ethical organization be in of itself an ethical act?
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:18 |
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this picture shows why the wonderful Completely Useless cowardly Knowitalls are wrong about trying to appeal to the "Truth" is in the Middle" horseshit. look at the Trump voters who are economically left.
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:22 |
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Willie Tomg posted:For the first time in my life something really beautiful in politics is beginning to take shape at the grassroots level and the only tool in your box is savaging people with memes. That's tragic, because if you could let go of whatever compels you to be so angry all the time you could be a part of something wonderful. I wanted to say thank you for this post, because it is both extremly relevant and very well written.
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:25 |
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NewForumSoftware posted:Why is that your bar to meet? What if the laws are terrible and unjust? Do you think slave catchers were also ethical? I guess I think laws are the rough representation of the current moral society? As the moral society changes, law changes. No I don't think slave catchers were ethical, but I also think kidnapping and slavery should be illegal. If laws are terrible and unjust then change them, and if corruption is at a point where you can't change the laws then burn the whole thing down.
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:29 |
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Crowsbeak posted:this picture shows why the wonderful Completely Useless cowardly Knowitalls are wrong about trying to appeal to the "Truth" is in the Middle" horseshit. look at the Trump voters who are economically left. Also, the liberals being violently segregationist becoming exploitable as America urbanizes is going to come back into play. Socially liberal in segregated suburbs vs integrated cities are very different things.
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:30 |
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NewForumSoftware posted:It's hilarious that you get calls for decorum the second someone who's viewed as "one of the good ones" comes out and says some dumb poo poo. Call Me Charlie? Call Me Charlie was arguing against accepting refugees and in favor of building Trump's wall when I said that. He routinely defends his voting for Trump "as a leftist." Dude's a creep.
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:37 |
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NewForumSoftware posted:So given that, would working for a more ethical organization be in of itself an ethical act? I think that crosses a line from just observing corporations to be more ethical to judging corporations that are more or less ethical and I think judging a corporation based on ethics is flawed.
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:38 |
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Majorian posted:Call Me Charlie was arguing against accepting refugees and in favor of building Trump's wall when I said that. He routinely defends his voting for Trump "as a leftist." Dude's a creep. It's almost as if there are appropriate times to call someone an idiot, like when they deny unskilled workers are hurt by illegal immigration. Or pretend like they don't know what reactionary means. FWIW I don't care if you want to call him out when he says dumb poo poo, just don't come back and try to play "what we really need now is for people to recognize they agree more than they disagree" as they engage in the exact same behavior they are "calling out" Reik posted:I guess I think laws are the rough representation of the current moral society? As the moral society changes, law changes. No I don't think slave catchers were ethical, but I also think kidnapping and slavery should be illegal. If laws are terrible and unjust then change them, and if corruption is at a point where you can't change the laws then burn the whole thing down. But they were legal, why would they not be ethical? Given that most people in this thread think that charging people with pre-existing conditions more to healthcare should be illegal. Given that, is it not fair for them to see health insurers as unethical? NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Aug 10, 2017 |
# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:40 |
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NewForumSoftware posted:It's almost as if there are appropriate times to call someone an idiot, like when they deny unskilled workers are hurt by illegal immigration.
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:44 |
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NewForumSoftware posted:It's almost as if there are appropriate times to call someone an idiot, like when they deny unskilled workers are hurt by illegal immigration. I admitted I was wrong, and I'm pretty sure I haven't complained about you calling me an idiot. So...maybe stop whining now? e: Plus this - Sneakster posted:They're hurt by capitalist exploitation. Illegal immigration is more of a humanitarian crisis. If there was a UBI and unskilled labor was an avenue to exploit desperate immigrants without competing with them for survival, its unlikely illegal immigration would be considered as much of a pressing matter. Bitching about illegal immigrants is just giving a pass to those who are really benefiting from the system anyway. Majorian fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Aug 10, 2017 |
# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:44 |
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Sneakster posted:They're hurt by capitalist exploitation. Illegal immigration is more of a humanitarian crisis. If there was a UBI and unskilled labor was an avenue to exploit desperate immigrants without competing with them for survival, its unlikely illegal immigration would be considered as much of a pressing matter. I agree 100%, the problem at the end of the day is that we've tied work and livelihood together and depend on "the market" to deliver us jobs. Majorian posted:I admitted I was wrong, and I'm pretty sure I haven't complained about you calling me an idiot. So...maybe stop whining now? You don't need to complain because there's an army of "you're not a REAL socialist if...", "reactionary thinkers like Trump and NFS" following behind you to remind us that actually, great things are happening and if we could just all get along it would be better.
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:50 |
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NewForumSoftware posted:if we could just all get along it would be better. I mean...yeah?
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:51 |
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NewForumSoftware posted:You don't need to complain because there's an army of "you're not a REAL socialist if...", "reactionary thinkers like Trump and NFS" following behind you to remind us that actually, great things are happening and if we could just all get along it would be better. Seriously, stop whining.
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:53 |
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WampaLord posted:I mean...yeah? Sure, but the way to do that is not to call for more calm discourse between labeling others nazis and sociopaths. Be the change you want to see or shut the gently caress up about it. Majorian posted:Seriously, stop whining. How many more times are you worthless spineless windbags going to post this poo poo into the wind like I give two fucks about how you view me? Put me on ignore if you don't want to hear about how your political discourse is just as toxic as the people you endlessly attack.
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# ? Aug 10, 2017 23:54 |
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Reik posted:I don't expect corporations to make good moral decisions. If I don't want corporations behaving in a certain way I want to have a law on the books preventing them from behaving that way. If we didn't have a law that made murder illegal I would still expect a fair amount of humans to not murder people because it's a bad thing to do however I would not expect a corporation to not murder someone if it meant profit. What about when those corporations committing murder for profit inevitably use those profits to Oh but I guess as long as bribery is legal I guess that's not an ethical problem either right
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# ? Aug 11, 2017 00:00 |
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i dont give a flying fck what u think of me, i swear 2 g*d stop telling me to shut up or i will lose it
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# ? Aug 11, 2017 00:01 |
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Calibanibal posted:i dont give a flying fck what u think of me, i swear 2 g*d stop telling me to shut up or i will lose it You're gimmick is growing on me.
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# ? Aug 11, 2017 00:03 |
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Majorian posted:Bitching about illegal immigrants is just giving a pass to those who are really benefiting from the system anyway. Preventing immigration for the sake of ethnic solidarity is hosed up, suppressing wages for the sake of ethnic solidarity is also hosed up. Reforming capitalist excess has to be the primary driver of establishing an egalitarian society or else tribal pandering becomes a cynical front for capitalist exploitation. Immigration policy does not exist in a vacuum from domestic labor just because of humanitarian causes that would be the ideal driver in a society that wasn't putting its most desperate in an unskilled labor thunderdome. NewForumSoftware posted:I agree 100%, the problem at the end of the day is that we've tied work and livelihood together and depend on "the market" to deliver us jobs. Also, Wampa, you're getting a little shakey in the Trump thread. If it makes you feel any better, despite this thread apparently being a brain damaged hive-mind, there are people in that thread who voted for Mittens and McCain who just want to watch Honey Boo Boo in peace.
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# ? Aug 11, 2017 00:05 |
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Sneakster posted:Racism is not mutually exclusive with socialism, Marx himself was extremely racist against mestizos.
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# ? Aug 11, 2017 00:24 |
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Crowsbeak posted:this picture shows why the wonderful Completely Useless cowardly Knowitalls are wrong about trying to appeal to the "Truth" is in the Middle" horseshit. look at the Trump voters who are economically left. Graphs like this are lovely, as are the people who usually ask these questions, because the Y axis is what people self-identify as, as opposed to what positions they believe and where that fits them on the spectrum.
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# ? Aug 11, 2017 00:25 |
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Not an endorsement of racism, but a reminder that no particular view or school of thought is completely insulated from negative influence and human foible.
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# ? Aug 11, 2017 00:29 |
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Sneakster posted:Also, Wampa, you're getting a little shakey in the Trump thread I don't know what you mean by this. I post how I post, if people want to write me off as an idiot, that's on them. I know who I am.
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# ? Aug 11, 2017 00:31 |
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Majorian posted:Call Me Charlie was arguing against accepting refugees and in favor of building Trump's wall when I said that. He routinely defends his voting for Trump "as a leftist." Dude's a creep. I've never argued in favor of building Trump's wall, you stupid rear end in a top hat. That's the worst thing about posting here. People like you who make up false positions so they can put other people in boxes instead of actually reading what they post and responding accordingly.
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# ? Aug 11, 2017 00:33 |
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Call Me Charlie posted:I've never argued in favor of building Trump's wall, you stupid rear end in a top hat. Oh RIGHT, you were arguing against allowing in Syrian refugees: Call Me Charlie posted:Allowing ten thousand people in a year, so you can get the warm & fuzzies while watching the local news, doesn't counteracts the fact that we're directly responsible for the Syrian civil war going on as long as it has. Sorry. That's the reality of the situation. Truly helping them would be stopping the perpetual war that caused them to flee their area. My bad.
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# ? Aug 11, 2017 00:43 |
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Majorian posted:Oh RIGHT, you were arguing against allowing in Syrian refugees: Thanks for summing up why you're the worst poster in here. *yeah, i just straight up made something up about you but YOU'RE still in the wrong *
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# ? Aug 11, 2017 00:44 |
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VitalSigns posted:What about when those corporations committing murder for profit inevitably use those profits to I'm okay with getting lobbying and bribery out of politics. Also, i expect politicians and all elected officials to act ethically. NewForumSoftware posted:But they were legal, why would they not be ethical? Given that most people in this thread think that charging people with pre-existing conditions more to healthcare should be illegal. Given that, is it not fair for them to see health insurers as unethical? I'm not saying corporations can't be unethical, I'm saying I don't expect them to be ethical and don't judge them on ethics. When a corporation is being unethical but legal we should make the unethical behavior illegal. Reik fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Aug 11, 2017 |
# ? Aug 11, 2017 00:46 |
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Call Me Charlie posted:Thanks for summing up why you're the worst poster in here. I love that you think my misremembering your terrible position is a greater sin than your genuinely awful position. (which turned out to be even worse than I remembered)
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# ? Aug 11, 2017 00:55 |
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I don't want to turn Trump thread into bitching about DNC, but Ossoff is such a pathetically weak candidate that against the weakest imaginable opposition and almost every other factor involved in his favor, he was so weak that his loss is probably the specific reason the DNC decided to throw women's rights under the bus to peel off just a just a few more Republicans to not have to compromise the donors. He's a loser, right down to the quarks and gluons keeping him from liquefying in place. WampaLord posted:I don't know what you mean by this. I post how I post, if people want to write me off as an idiot, that's on them. I know who I am.
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# ? Aug 11, 2017 00:58 |
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Sneakster posted:Kinda come off like being oppositional for the sake of it rather than having a point to make. It's good for discussion when the thread breaks down into actually arguing under policy under Trump, but the recent stuff seemed to just be kind of disruptive. I wasn't the one telling people that they're bad posters and should shut up.
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# ? Aug 11, 2017 01:06 |
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Majorian posted:I love that you think my misremembering your terrible position is a greater sin than your genuinely awful position. (which turned out to be even worse than I remembered) Your long history of 'misremembering' and twisting people's positions is worse than my belief that we need to stop our proxy war with Russia over Syria, which caused the refugee crisis, instead of pretending we're humanitarians for taking 10,000 (or 80,000) refugees a year from Jordan/Turkey as we continue to flood their homeland with weapons. Call Me Charlie fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Aug 11, 2017 |
# ? Aug 11, 2017 01:10 |
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Reik posted:I think there's a difference between white knight-ing insurance companies and saying things that are objectively true. You do you, though. Incidentally your refusal to put see the system as a whole except in the best light possible is a good demonstration of what banal evil is. It's the system and it's how it works therefore it's probably okay.
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# ? Aug 11, 2017 01:12 |
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# ? May 24, 2024 21:08 |
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WampaLord posted:I wasn't the one telling people that they're bad posters and should shut up.
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# ? Aug 11, 2017 01:14 |