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JUST MAKING CHILI posted:Wrongful termination? This is Texas son, we fire people that like beans (or no beans) in their chili or root for the wrong football team. I know you're just joking, but: there are federal laws too. Basically political speech is not one of the protected classes, federally or by texas law, so they can totally fire him. But, to avoid potential lawsuits, companies are wise to document why they fire someone, as protection against a spurious suit alleging they fired that person due to one of the protected classes (things like age, gender, religion, race, etc.). Secondarily, Reaper's board would be wise to very carefully consider what they will say publicly. They have a responsibility to handle the matter carefully. If they fire the guy and make a good public statement within the next two to four days or so, I would consider that to be a totally reasonable timeframe and would not hold the delay against them.
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Aug 15, 2017 21:27
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Yeah, and he's not going anywhere it looks like...
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Aug 15, 2017 21:43
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Well, that's all terribly disappointing.
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Aug 15, 2017 22:16
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Makes my on the fence position of whether or not to buy in a lot simpler at least
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Aug 15, 2017 22:33
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Well, we have 18 days to go, so they can take a few days to consider their position if they need to. I am sure they're completely thrilled with this coming up in the middle of the Kickstarter though.
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Aug 15, 2017 22:43
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Changed pledge to 1 dollar to show my distaste for the situation. Do the right thing Reaper.
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Aug 15, 2017 23:25
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I could've sworn he had already been outed as a shithead like over a year ago. The facebook posts are extremely, openly damning, though.
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Aug 16, 2017 01:55
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Welp, there's the hut. A soft little voice in my head is wondering if the hut coming out right now is entirely coincidental. I think it is just coincidence, but if they want to remind some of the people leaving over today's event about why they want in on this still, that's a strong card to play.
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Aug 16, 2017 03:32
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Leperflesh posted:Reaper's administrators have a responsibility to properly document things before they fire someone, to make sure they avoid a wrongful termination lawsuit. That includes being sure of their facts, and probably talking to the company's lawyer. I would give them a couple of days before deciding that they're gonna whitewash the whole thing. I know that you may not be able to say, but would they be legally covered for immediately saying, conditionally, "We do not condone X, Y and Z, and if the results of an investigation were to show that an employee did these things, they will be fired"? Leaving aside for the moment the question of how head-in-sand they would have had to be to not know.
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Aug 16, 2017 04:36
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Apparently he and Reaper have already parted company, he lists Reaper as a former employer now, though Reaper haven't said anything. The thread I found this in was full of people saying Antifa were communist, and communists are way worse than fascists I mean look how many people in Russia, China, and North Korea they starved to death compared to the alleged holocaust, and also that the nazis and white supremacists only armed themselves in self defence after vicious and armed antifa ambushed them first. America.
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Aug 16, 2017 08:31
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I'm not a lawyer but I think that would be legal. They'd be fools to announce such a thing prior to removing the employee from the workplace and revoking access to all systems, though, because that's an invitation to the employee to cause trouble. Some kind of lon leave pending investigation" seems to be common. But, Reaper is still a relatively tiny company... doing this stuff is hard when you don't have administrative redundancy and the employee in question is an administrator.
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Aug 16, 2017 08:35
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NTRabbit posted:Apparently he and Reaper have already parted company, he lists Reaper as a former employer now, though Reaper haven't said anything.
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Aug 16, 2017 08:37
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evenworse username posted:Welp, pledge cancelled. loving yikes. I'm out. Nothing in this KS is so must have that it's worth doing business with them right now for me. Bad Munki posted:Welp, there's the hut. A soft little voice in my head is wondering if the hut coming out right now is entirely coincidental. I think it is just coincidence, but if they want to remind some of the people leaving over today's event about why they want in on this still, that's a strong card to play. Nothing coincidental. They released it a full $120k below their pledge number for it to try and recover steam. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 10:11 on Aug 16, 2017 |
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Aug 16, 2017 09:59
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And now white guys (based on profile pics) on his still publically accessable Facebook page are saying he said nothing wrong and that they are cancelling their pledges. Reaper must be thrilled with Matt right now. Bad Munki, I had the same thought about the chicken leg house.
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Aug 16, 2017 10:11
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Now some are saying he hasn't been fired and he's still at Reaper, so i do't know what to believe
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Aug 16, 2017 10:45
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I don't actually want the guy to be fired because I don't want to set a precedent where people are fired for saying unpopular poo poo on the internet regardless of how insensitive of ill-timed. The guy is a massive dickbag who deserves ill will, but I also don't like the idea that a corporation will fire you because of what you did on the internet (if it isn't actually illegal). I want him to be reprimanded. I want the company to come out as pro Antifa. I want the company to make this guy be in charge of all of Reaper's charitable efforts from now on (so he has to do it, but Reaper gets the credit, working alongside Jewish charities or BLM so maybe he'll learn something and it will be more in his face than "sensitivity training"). I want Reaper to openly donate money to relief efforts for the victims of the Nazi attack. And I want Reaper to make a relevant charity sculpt. But if he's good at his job let him keep it. Just make sure he separates his public and private personas in the future. And I know that that's not going to be a popular opinion, but I think it's better than having employment be at the whim of corporate masters (Right to Work blooows). I will say that this dude is different than the Google guy because the memo writer's lovely behavior was directly related to Google and Google's corporate culture and belittling the women who worked for Google. The Reaper dude is just a Nazi sympathizing troll, and while that sucks, it doesn't really have to do with Reaper other than guilt by association.
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Aug 16, 2017 11:39
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Nah. Dude who apparently runs a chunk of Reaper's social media presence should know better than to post abhorrent poo poo where the public can see it. If he doesn't understand how to control his own content, then he's clearly not competent for that role.
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Aug 16, 2017 11:47
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He was definitely reprimanded
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Aug 16, 2017 11:49
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Liquid Communism posted:Nah. Dude who apparently runs a chunk of Reaper's social media presence should know better than to post abhorrent poo poo where the public can see it. If he doesn't understand how to control his own content, then he's clearly not competent for that role. I mean if he was actually in charge of their social media than yeah you've got a good point. I looked as far as "operations manager" but didn't go into what that meant. But working there 13 years definitely predates social media so it's not like he couldn't be moved to a less public role. Again, not because I want to protect a Nazi sympathizer, but because I don't like the idea of corporations hiring and firing based on public pressure. NTRabbit posted:He was definitely reprimanded It's not just about reprimanding the dude, it's about forcing Reaper the corporate entity to publicly distance itself from alt-right garbage in a way that makes sure they never let it happen again.
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Aug 16, 2017 11:51
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I can totally see where you're coming from, but at the same time Reaper's kickstarter model functions on community goodwill. He put his need to publicly troll the family of a Holocaust victim over the livelihood of every single one of his co-workers. And he did this at a time when the company's reputation is its product. Like the Google guy, it's more indicative that this is a toxic employee. Both prioritized their own petty damage over the running of their businesses. They blasted diarrhea on the hands that fed them, and there's no shortage of talented people out there who can replace them both while also being respectful, decent human beings.
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Aug 16, 2017 12:00
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It's complex and I'm honestly still trying to sort my feelings and opinion on the matter. You make some excellent points about their product being goodwill and the company running a public campaign and anything done in the public sphere affects that and hurts the company, so maybe in this case yeah, you're right this guy should get the ax. But what I'm really worried about is in four or five years when a guy posts some socialist meme and a bunch of vocal alt-right trolls cry foul and demand his head.
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Aug 16, 2017 12:06
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Liquid Communism posted:loving yikes. I'm out. Nothing in this KS is so must have that it's worth doing business with them right now for me.
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Aug 16, 2017 12:09
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I can re-pledge if Reaper does something meaningful. I don't necessarily think he's gotta be fired (although I also have zero sympathy if that were how it ended up); I agree that putting him in charge of raising money for a donation to SPLC or a minority internship program or something like that could be sufficient as well.
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Aug 16, 2017 12:45
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There are reports that they fired him, but he made this post just a couple hours ago: quote:feel I need to clear the air here.... The way this is phrased makes me think that they are still trying to work out what to do about the whole thing ('whatever reprimands I face'). I can understand that, given that he's been there a long time its very likely that he is both important to the company and close to many of the people who are in charge of this now, and I realize that can be difficult. I am willing to see what they arrive at before making any final decision. Although this does sort of raise the question as to whether he has just been a shithead for 15 years and they've been fine with that as long as he didn't call public attention to it. That isn't really comforting. But I don't know anything about the guy, and its possible that he's either much more discrete in person, or that he was playing up his views without realizing what a mistake that was. Or that he's recently gotten considerably worse, people shift views and this has been a pretty insane year. Captain Invictus posted:I could've sworn he had already been outed as a shithead like over a year ago. The facebook posts are extremely, openly damning, though.
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Aug 16, 2017 14:30
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Robert Buckey posted:You called out Antifa. I'm not sure why that warrants a reprimand. I don't get why Reaper has to be worried about an employee calling out a violent Marxist movement Is there some source for this "If you hate fascists you are a communist" notion? Was "The Greatest Generation" all a bunch of Dirty Reds because they fought Hitler? I'm truly at a loss as to how the Durn Commies are the real problem. Indolent Bastard fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Aug 16, 2017 |
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Aug 16, 2017 14:34
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Ashcans posted:There are reports that they fired him, but he made this post just a couple hours ago: "Don't blame my employer for my stupidity." Don't worry Matt, we won't, but we might blame your employer for continuing to employ a short sighted, narrow minded troll. That continued employment is entirely on their head and they can reap the consequences. Indolent Bastard fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Aug 16, 2017 |
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Aug 16, 2017 14:43
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God damnit I really wish there was another company where I could just search a library of thousands of minis for poo poo like "kobold, two handed, female, knight" and find exactly what I need and have it on my desk to paint within like a week.
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Aug 16, 2017 14:53
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Indolent Bastard posted:Is there some source for this "If you hate fascists you are a communist" notion? Was "The Greatest Generation" all a bunch of Dirty Reds because they fought Hitler? I'm truly at a loss as to how the Durn Commies are the real problem. Standard whataboutism. Link the opposition to the other big scary bad guy in the American psyche, Communism, and you can get a pass from people rationally considering if what you're saying makes any goddamn sense before accepting it.
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Aug 16, 2017 15:23
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After my somewhat alarmist reaction before about Reaper "keeping my business," I've cooled off a bit after seeing their relatively swift, kinda-measured-by-modern-standards response. Obviously nothing is final and the situation still sucks, but I think that the higher-ups at Reaper are at least putting forth some effort to make things better. Honestly, the thing that turned me most against Clark was that goddamn Obama/Hillary image macro, which was racist, sexist, Islamophobic, and just plain lazy and stupid. I guarantee he didn't take the minimal effort to MSPaint that together himself, just grabbed it off some far-right message board to throw gasoline onto his "argument." (Not sure what it says about me that I find that picture the most offensive thing in an argument thread that included transphobia, homophobia, and chanting "NAZI NAZI NAZI" at a Holocaust-survivor family member; nor do I know why I expect any level of intellectual consistency in a Facebook slapfight.) I think I'm just worn out. Things have been getting completely out of hand in this country from the top and bottom since last year, and in the midst of genuine concerns I have for the safety of friends, coworkers, and people I care about, now the monsters are invading my hobby spaces. Stay out of my nerdgames, you bastards  The one silver lining: if hard-right fascist-defender dickbags are quitting Reaper over having their fee-fees hurt by a miniature company's commie-pinko HR policies of inclusion and tolerance: Good. That makes me want to up my pledge, not cancel it. (Plus, hey, they're unlocking the Hut sooner, so there's that. Self-interest and whatnot.) ...Sorry this turned into a rant/helldump; there are other threads I could put these thoughts into and actually be on topic. Apparently I have a lot to work out, and I just really want to get back to worrying about normal things. Like how many months late fulfillment is going to be on this KS.
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Aug 16, 2017 16:22
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Leperflesh posted:I'm not a lawyer but I think that would be legal. They'd be fools to announce such a thing prior to removing the employee from the workplace and revoking access to all systems, though, because that's an invitation to the employee to cause trouble. Ahh, word. Thanks for the reply. My dollar is still there. If they don't terminate him, I'll yank it. If they do let him go, or offer a sufficiently severe rebuke towards him/show of good faith towards civil rights, I'll stop being lazy and put in more money now rather than waiting until the very end.  Atlas Hugged posted:I don't actually want the guy to be fired because I don't want to set a precedent where people are fired for saying unpopular poo poo on the internet regardless of how insensitive of ill-timed. The guy is a massive dickbag who deserves ill will, but I also don't like the idea that a corporation will fire you because of what you did on the internet (if it isn't actually illegal). I don't know. I do agree that people can't be complete social pariahs, completely unemployable, etc., no matter how odious they might be; or to put it another way, anyone who's not odious/dangerous enough to still be in prison is probably not too odious/dangerous to have some sort of job. But I think there's a difference between saying someone deserves a living and saying they deserve a plum position (in terms of prominence and nerd cred, in this case, if not necessarily of income.) I would have a problem with telling him to go live under a bridge somewhere; I have no problem with telling him to go find a generic service job.
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Aug 16, 2017 16:22
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I'm just so tired of being outraged all the time, and I want a bunch of little mans to paint. He's a huge shitbag but we're not going to fix him and if he does lose his job it's just going to push him further right as he complains about "SJWs costing him his job." At this point he hasn't actually run over anyone with a car or burned down a church so I don't really care if he keeps his job or not. Hopefully all his friends tell him what a huge idiot he is and he feels like an rear end for loving with the kickstarter profits and maybe he has to think about his lovely opinions, but probably not.
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Aug 16, 2017 16:34
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Indolent Bastard posted:Is there some source for this "If you hate fascists you are a communist" notion? Was "The Greatest Generation" all a bunch of Dirty Reds because they fought Hitler? I'm truly at a loss as to how the Durn Commies are the real problem. Read about Antifa. People who hate fascists is not synonymous with Antifa, and it's a mistake to conflate them. If the only transgression here were being critical of Antifa's use of violence, that would actually be fine. But it's clearly not... and being critical of Antifa is sometimes just "code" or an icebreaker for plowing full tilt into being a racist fascist shithead.
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Aug 16, 2017 16:38
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I think it comes down to this, his job as DoO is to oversee production and campaigns that make Reaper money. This weekend he implemented a campaign that is costing Reaper money. How Reaper will react will be determined after they evaluate if the money he brings in is worth the money he costs them. Unfortunately the traditional game space isn't exactly a beacon of progressive thought. Reaper knew full well what he was like, they either chose to avoid confrontation at all costs or didn't completely disagree with him.
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Aug 16, 2017 16:40
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So I'm trying to catch up on this thread in the back of a cab... is it ok to keep my pledge or not? Also if it's not I'm just changing it to $1 and not buying anything so some alt-right shitbird doesn't have the chance to get into Wave 1.
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Aug 16, 2017 17:01
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Peas and Rice posted:So I'm trying to catch up on this thread in the back of a cab... is it ok to keep my pledge or not? It's definitely probably specifically somewhat okay in a general sense to don't not un-remove your pledge to retroactively keep it to yourself away from other not-having don't-wanting didn't-pledging un-supporters of kick starters or socially conscious doll hairs.
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Aug 16, 2017 17:05
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Indolent Bastard posted:Is there some source for this "If you hate fascists you are a communist" notion? Was "The Greatest Generation" all a bunch of Dirty Reds because they fought Hitler? I'm truly at a loss as to how the Durn Commies are the real problem. It boils down to "Good things are exactly the same as bad things" and "truth is in the middle" lines of thinking.
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Aug 16, 2017 17:08
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MasterSlowPoke posted:It boils down to "Good things are exactly the same as bad things" and "truth is in the middle" lines of thinking. Kind of. Antifa specifically can be accurately described as an extreme left-wing movement. It's tricky, because it is not really an "organization" in the sense of having a top-down structure; but its origins and motives and political approach are all born from the anarchist movement, which is generally considered to be very Left. Combined with the direct-action, "show of force" tactics and the numerous cases where people self-identifying as Antifa have initiated violence against fascist demonstrations, it's accurate to refer to Antifa specifically as a "often violent far left movement." THAT SAID. Most of the counter-protestors against the explicitly Nazi, the kinda-Nazi, the white power, the alt-right, and the code-words-for-being-super-racist-while-claiming-they're-not-super-racist groups are not Antifa. Being against those organizations is not inherently leftist, and indeed they are routinely denounced by Republicans and others on the right of the political spectrum. I'll wager there's at least a smattering of Republican voters showing up to protest against white nationalists. It's just as much a mistake to blanketly tar everyone on the right side of the spectrum as being Nazis as it is to blanketly describe everyone who hates Nazis as being violent or being Antifa or being communists. So as for Reaper's shithead: yeah he wasn't just calling out Antifa for tactics that can be legitimately debated by reasonable people. Like, if you read up on the civil rights movement, there are legitimate and reasonable disagreements you could have about the rift between Dr. King and Malcom X and their professed approaches, and having that discussion doesn't make you a racist. But that's definitely not the core complaint here. This dude was posting racist poo poo and defending white supremacists. It's better to not worry about the claim of Antifa being commies (which is still a mistake, because anarchists and communists are not really all that well aligned); when the alt-right uses coded language to promote their ideas, they often use the lingering fear of communism as a tool to filter out and separate people who may be more sympathetic to their views, or to try to divide their opponents on the left, or just to signal to one another that since anticommunism = patriotism, being an alt-right nazi shithead = patriotism. I'm spelling all this out because I know there's several non-Americans in the thread who may not be familiar with the intricacies of our national politics. I personally had to recently learn a lot more about these groups: I was not familiar with Antifa specifically. It's a very touchy subject. It's not easy to navigate, even if you're someone who is strongly against the alt-right; there are first amendment rights in question here, going down fundamentally to questions like "should hate speech be protected by the first amendment" and "is hate speech 'violent' and therefore legitimate to oppose violently" and "are Trump rallies inherently in support of racism" and those questions are not usually thoughtfully debated during public protests or in facebook threads. So what should you do? I have a suggestion for the thread, because I don't really want it to turn into a reprisal of some of the extremely terrible conversations that go on in D&D. I would like to suggest that all of these types of opinions be considered reasonable and acceptable: Enola Gay-For-Pay posted:I'm just so tired of being outraged all the time, and I want a bunch of little mans to paint. He's a huge shitbag but we're not going to fix him and if he does lose his job it's just going to push him further right as he complains about "SJWs costing him his job." I think this poster has a reasonable approach. Indolent Bastard posted:"Don't blame my employer for my stupidity." Don't worry Matt, we won't, but we might blame your employer for continuing to employ a short sighted, narrow minded troll. That continued employment is entirely on their head and they can reap the consequences. And so is this. evenworse username posted:I can re-pledge if Reaper does something meaningful. I don't necessarily think he's gotta be fired (although I also have zero sympathy if that were how it ended up); I agree that putting him in charge of raising money for a donation to SPLC or a minority internship program or something like that could be sufficient as well. And so is this. I would like to suggest that some folks that feel the need to withdraw their pledge or not pledge are completely within the realm of reasonableness to do so: while at the same time, others who feel OK with continuing their pledge, regardless of the outcomes, are also taking a reasonable approach. This isn't some kind of milquetoast "the truth is in the middle" appeal, either: I'm not personally attacking Antifa (my feelings about Antifa are conflicted and ambivilent right now and I don't feel comfortable taking a strong position from a point of relative ignorance) nor am I criticizing anyone who feels disgusted and repelled by Matt's posts, and I am not advocating for a middle-of-the-road political position that accepts anything about the alt-right's messages or positions. But I think it's fair to acknowledge and respect a reasonable range of reactions to the situation with Reaper. And I reserve the right to change my mind in the future, depending on what Reaper does over the next few days, and in the long run.
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Aug 16, 2017 17:56
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My two cents is that this guy, and the people supporting him, are toxic garbage, and while before it probably would have been subtly insidious (making things hard for women and minorities in official and unofficial capacity) which is real fuckin' bad, we're now at the point of large Nazi marches. They're only growing bolder when they sniff out that people don't care enough to tell them their views are lovely. If someone during 2005 wanted to talk about how Bush was actually cool and good, I'd probably just roll my eyes and maybe make a few comments, but the environment nowadays needs some real fuckin' pushback. Reaper needs to just sever from this guy no matter the cost to signal to their customers that are actually worth a poo poo, that Reaper isn't going to paper over a fuckhead for whatever reason. I've currently got my pledge for paint set A and dragon turtle, and was planning on pledging for future paint sets as well as big gribblies, but if they don't drop him, I'll drop mine.
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Aug 16, 2017 18:52
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Pyrolocutus posted:My two cents is that this guy, and the people supporting him, are toxic garbage, and while before it probably would have been subtly insidious (making things hard for women and minorities in official and unofficial capacity) which is real fuckin' bad, we're now at the point of large Nazi marches. They're only growing bolder when they sniff out that people don't care enough to tell them their views are lovely. If someone during 2005 wanted to talk about how Bush was actually cool and good, I'd probably just roll my eyes and maybe make a few comments, but the environment nowadays needs some real fuckin' pushback. Reaper needs to just sever from this guy no matter the cost to signal to their customers that are actually worth a poo poo, that Reaper isn't going to paper over a fuckhead for whatever reason. 
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Aug 16, 2017 19:17
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Pyrolocutus posted:My two cents is that this guy, and the people supporting him, are toxic garbage, and while before it probably would have been subtly insidious (making things hard for women and minorities in official and unofficial capacity) which is real fuckin' bad, we're now at the point of large Nazi marches. They're only growing bolder when they sniff out that people don't care enough to tell them their views are lovely. If someone during 2005 wanted to talk about how Bush was actually cool and good, I'd probably just roll my eyes and maybe make a few comments, but the environment nowadays needs some real fuckin' pushback. Reaper needs to just sever from this guy no matter the cost to signal to their customers that are actually worth a poo poo, that Reaper isn't going to paper over a fuckhead for whatever reason. I expect a whole bunch of papering for two reasons. 1) "I have been employed at Reaper for over 15 years, if you can even call this relationship employment at this point; Reaper is family to me. Ed Pugh is like a brother I was not born with but I have grown to love literally as a brother. He has introduced me to people that way; my brother Matt." 2) Texas is a Red State and isn't best known for its progressive attitudes.
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Aug 16, 2017 19:42
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