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Jaxyon posted:OC Weekly makes it a point to talk about how embarrassingly racist Orange County is as much as possible. That's where I first learned about that.
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Aug 16, 2017 23:00
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http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-oc-informant-scandal-20170818-story.html Superior Court Judge Thomas Goethals pulls death penalty from the case due to excessive buffoonery. In addition to DA OC being racist, they're also incompetent. Cops and DA shuffle their feet and mumble "But mass murder tho".
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Aug 18, 2017 21:23
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"It doesn't matter that we cheated because he clearly deserves to die anyway!" loving cops, I swear.
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Aug 18, 2017 21:56
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Sydin posted:"It doesn't matter that we cheated because he clearly deserves to die anyway!" This isn't some game where both sides have equal standing and a legitimate interest in a favorable outcome for them. On one side, you have the people of the State, and on the other, a guy who more or less indisputably killed eight people in cold blood over a child custody dispute. The fact that some of the evidence against him was obtained in an improper manner doesn't really change the fact that he loving did it. The fact that exclusion of evidence and overturning sentences/convictions is the only workable remedy we have for improperly obtained evidence should be seen as unfortunate.
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Aug 19, 2017 00:59
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or you know maybe the cops and the da should know how to do their jobs idunno
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Aug 19, 2017 01:01
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Dead Reckoning posted:I mean, in a certain sense, they're right. It's good if you believe that the state shouldn't be murdering people anyway. VVV Also yes The Wiggly Wizard fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Aug 19, 2017 |
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Aug 19, 2017 01:12
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Hey due process is cool and good regardless of how obviously guilty the party is
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Aug 19, 2017 01:17
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Hey due process is cool and good regardless of how obviously guilty the party is The system...works????? 
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Aug 19, 2017 01:21
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Grand Prize Winner posted:or you know maybe the cops and the da should know how to do their jobs idunno But, since holding civil servants to account is unlikely in cases where their misbehavior enjoys broad approval (or indifference) from the public and their superiors, the exclusionary rule is what we are left with. The Wiggly Wizard posted:It's good if you believe that the state shouldn't be murdering people anyway.
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Aug 19, 2017 01:27
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Dead Reckoning posted:The fact that exclusion of evidence and overturning sentences/convictions is the only workable remedy we have for improperly obtained evidence should be seen as unfortunate. I agree: in addition to the death penalty being excluded, the DA & Sheriff should be criminally convicted for falsifying evidence.
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Aug 19, 2017 02:11
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Sydin posted:I agree: in addition to the death penalty being excluded, the DA & Sheriff should be criminally convicted for falsifying evidence. There is no accusation that they falsified evidence though; the accusation is that they housed collaborating snitches with the defendant in order to elicit information.
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Aug 19, 2017 03:02
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Do you have a larger point or are you going to keep arguing "no it isn't no it isn't" like some insane version of that one Monty Python sketch?
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Aug 19, 2017 03:05
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Dead Reckoning posted:Again, the misconduct by the DA and Sheriff's Office is completely irrelevant as to whether Dekraai should be sentenced to death. Dekraai absolutely ought to be put to death Says you. I think police and DA conduct is relevant to the punishment of someone convicted on the basis of their misconduct. If deterrence works then failing on such a high profile case will be a better deterrent to future bad action by police and prosecutors rather than letting them abuse the law and still get their way. Maybe law enforcement will think twice about withholding information next time because of this.
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Aug 19, 2017 03:09
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Trabisnikof posted:Says you. I think police and DA conduct is relevant to the punishment of someone convicted on the basis of their misconduct. Why? In the abstract, if completely and uncontestedly true evidence of someone's horrific crime is presented, why should the manner in which that evidence was obtained matter? If their guilt, in the sense of having done the thing they are accused of, is incontrovertible, should they not be appropriately punished? Trabisnikof posted:If deterrence works then failing on such a high profile case will be a better deterrent to future bad action by police and prosecutors rather than letting them abuse the law and still get their way. Is your fetishist for seeing the police fail that extreme that you are OK with letting murderers off in order to preserve fair play? If it turns out that a firefighter was drunk on duty when he responded to a call, should we go back and burn down the building so that he thinks twice before doing it again? This isn't a game of capture the flag, where your parents make you let little Scotty Dekraai out of jail in order to teach you a lesson because you were out of bounds when you tagged him and lied about it. Both sides do not have morally equal interests.
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Aug 19, 2017 04:12
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Dead Reckoning I know you're a professional contrarian in this thread but come the gently caress on. We don't want to punish the cops and the DAs by letting criminals go free. We want to punish them when they gently caress up their jobs and let criminals go free. If a multiple murderer gets off on appeal because the DA or the police did something wrong to obtain the conviction in the first place then that DA and those police should absolutely be nailed to the wall.
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Aug 19, 2017 04:21
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Dead Reckoning posted:Why? In the abstract, if completely and uncontestedly true evidence of someone's horrific crime is presented, why should the manner in which that evidence was obtained matter? If their guilt, in the sense of having done the thing they are accused of, is incontrovertible, should they not be appropriately punished? You know that it's possible there's a third option: the death penalty is loving garbage and we shouldn't kill anyone, and if the cops and DA hosed up the guy gets a retrial if he wants. I mean, you're absolutely certain this guy did it, but I'm equally absolutely certain you weren't there in the court room as a juror listening to all of the evidence and deliberating on it, and, you know, a funny thing happens when it's you who has to actually say someone should die. Even if you believe for certain someone did it, you don't want to be one of the people who has to pull the trigger to kill someone. Statistically, it's next to impossible for you to have actually been in a jury that voted for the death penalty, so I'm pretty confident in saying you're an internet tough guy full of poo poo about this.
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Aug 19, 2017 05:00
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Dead Reckoning I know you're a professional contrarian in this thread but come the gently caress on. We don't want to punish the cops and the DAs by letting criminals go free. We want to punish them when they gently caress up their jobs and let criminals go free. The fact that we allow criminals to go free when evidence is improperly gathered is only because we have embraced an adversarial legal system as a check on government power, not because it is morally correct. It is not universal among western democratic legal systems.
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Aug 19, 2017 05:04
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Dead Reckoning posted:That's not what people have been arguing though. Posters ITT were talking primarily about measures to punish the police. (Or to de facto abolish the death penalty, but that's a different conversation.) The post of Trabisnikof directly stated that the benefit of taking the death penalty off the table was to deter future misconduct by the police. Sydin was most interested in punishing the cops and the DA, even though he was obviously unfamiliar with the facts of the case. The first post I responded to was him being affronted that the DA released a statement that the guy who killed eight people was a dirt bag who ought to be given the harshest possible sentence irrespective of any misconduct on the DA's part. oh now you're 100% right, we should never punish cops and DAs for breaking the rules put in place to keep them from ruining innocent people. how could I not see the bastion of your enlightenment before.
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Aug 19, 2017 05:08
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Dead Reckoning posted:The fact that we allow criminals to go free when evidence is improperly gathered is only because we have embraced an adversarial legal system as a check on government power, not because it is morally correct. It is not universal among western democratic legal systems. I can't think of an argument that's more of a non sequitur than this one, excepting perhaps the old line from the SNL Harry Caray sketches about eating the moon if it was made of ribs.
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Aug 19, 2017 05:13
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TIL that life in prison is the exact same as getting to go free.
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Aug 19, 2017 05:34
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Dead Reckoning posted:Is your fetishist for seeing the police fail that extreme that you are OK with letting murderers off in order to preserve fair play? Actually my fetish is for not imprisoning or executing innocent people, or violating criminal rights Figures you'd be the one arguing "we should just let the cops do whatever they want as long as bad people die"
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Aug 19, 2017 05:52
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Pretty sure it's about the integrity of the evidence, not punishing the DA and Dead Reckoning is full of poo poo. So the big part is the OC DA was using the prison informants to get "confessions" that established motives and intent. They then would use those conversations as evidence that that the suspects were the "worst of the worst." This "evidence" was then presented in sentencing to prove that suspects were irredeemable and deserved to die. Since this evidence was used in support of the death penalty case when it was, in fact, inadmissible, that naturally affects the legality of seeking the death penalty. Those fraudulent, blood thirsty Orange County fucks are lucky they didn't get the whole case thrown out.
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Aug 19, 2017 05:58
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We must agree, pro-death penalty or against, this was the columbian pure strain conviction that didn't need any more evidence.
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Aug 19, 2017 06:27
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Well, conviction and sentencing are different things. This guy was 100% going to jail, but cops and prosecutors often act like their job is to obtain the harshest sentence possible. Being guilty of a heinous crime doesn't guarantee the death penalty. Judges look at other factors -- mental health, past history, evidence of premeditation, evidence of remorse, etc. What OC has been doing is sending prison snitches in cells with these suspects and trying to get them talking so that those informers can then come back and say "Yeah, he seems sane and says he did it in cold blood and doesn't feel bad about it and will kill again if given the chance." Something that pretty much explodes whatever argument for leniency defense might be cooking up. Not only were a lot of those statements probably bullshit, but the whole spying operation was super illegal and now a bunch of convictions/sentences will have to be reviewed. It's a poo poo show.
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Aug 19, 2017 06:51
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:I mean, you're absolutely certain this guy did it, but I'm equally absolutely certain you weren't there in the court room as a juror listening to all of the evidence and deliberating on it, and, you know, a funny thing happens when it's you who has to actually say someone should die. Even if you believe for certain someone did it, you don't want to be one of the people who has to pull the trigger to kill someone. Dekraai shot a bunch of people in front of witnesses, had motive for the killings, was arrested nearby while wearing body armor, was connected to the guns used in the killings, and confessed to the killings. To my knowledge, neither he nor his attorneys have ever disputed that he carried out the killings, merely his culpability, and the order in which he carried them out. It's certainly possible that he is the victim of the mother of all frame jobs, but this case is about as close to undisputed facts as you can get. Duckbag posted:Pretty sure it's about the integrity of the evidence, not punishing the DA and Dead Reckoning is full of poo poo. LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:oh now you're 100% right, we should never punish cops and DAs for breaking the rules put in place to keep them from ruining innocent people. how could I not see the bastion of your enlightenment before. Cup Runneth Over posted:Figures you'd be the one arguing "we should just let the cops do whatever they want as long as bad people die"
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Aug 19, 2017 07:43
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Dead Reckoning posted:You still haven't explained how letting guilty people go free is an adequate punishment for police misconduct. You keep making an argument that has nothing to do with the topic. Just because execution is off the table doesn't mean he gets to "go free."
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Aug 19, 2017 07:48
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The facts of this specific case don't really change my argument. Why is not allowing a multiple murderer to be sentenced to death an adequate punishment for the prosecutor's misconduct?
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Aug 19, 2017 08:33
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about a half step away from reenacting death wish 3 there
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Aug 19, 2017 08:54
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Dead Reckoning posted:There are like two or three people on this page arguing that. punishing police and prosecutors is the essential element at stake in excluding evidence, so accusing me of making things up isn't gonna work here. Dude, no. The evidence was excluded because it was inadmissable. The cops/DA aren't getting "punished." They just hosed up a case because they were bad at their jobs. If anyone is being punished, it's the OC taxpayers who've been paying the salaries of incompetent criminals. The courts can only consider evidence obtained in a lawful manner. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the folks who wrote the Bill of Rights. Also, no one is going free here. Life in prison is just a slower death sentence. What are you even freaking out about?
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Aug 19, 2017 09:28
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It is heartening to read that the victims' families are mad at the prosecution and not the judge 
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Aug 19, 2017 13:56
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Duckbag posted:Also, no one is going free here. Life in prison is just a slower death sentence. What are you even freaking out about? This impacts a poo poo ton more cases ranging from weapons to murder. This informant program could have gone on for years as it affected no-name criminals who don't get their own wikipedia article.  mfw you try to use the "few bad apples" excuse at a judge who was previously a seasoned prosecutor.
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Aug 19, 2017 19:42
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Dead Reckoning posted:The facts of this specific case don't really change my argument. Why is not allowing a multiple murderer to be sentenced to death an adequate punishment for the prosecutor's misconduct? Just because people are saying the prosecutors deserved it doesn't mean it was actually a punishment, you incredible buffoon. That's not the point of throwing out the death penalty at all, and he's sure as gently caress not walking free. It's incredibly disingenuous to act like the judge pardoned him because the DA made a whoopsie.
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Aug 19, 2017 20:17
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Just to be clear, we're basically arguing over the backstory to the first Nightmare on Elm Street right?
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Aug 19, 2017 20:55
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Dead Reckoning posted:I mean, in a certain sense, they're right. i agree, the power balance swings way too far in favor of the state and cops and prosecutors good point
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Aug 20, 2017 07:53
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Actually when guilt is certain and the crime is heinous, like lets say a nazi terrorist murdering / maiming people with a car, or murdering 9 black church-goers, the death penalty is perfectly appropriate and justified. In jail he could radicalize other people to commit terror or cause harm to other inmates. The fact is there are people so dangerous that the only option for jailing them would be lifetime solitary confinement which is basically the death penalty by another name.
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Aug 20, 2017 19:21
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Maybe jail and society shouldnt be so lovely that people can get radicalized enough to want to smash the system
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Aug 20, 2017 19:26
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tsa posted:Actually when guilt is certain and the crime is heinous, like lets say a nazi terrorist murdering / maiming people with a car, or murdering 9 black church-goers, the death penalty is perfectly appropriate and justified. In jail he could radicalize other people to commit terror or cause harm to other inmates. The fact is there are people so dangerous that the only option for jailing them would be lifetime solitary confinement which is basically the death penalty by another name. Nice hot take Guess what, lifetime solitary confinement isn't the death penalty by another name, because with the death penalty, you are dead, and with lifetime solitary confinement, you are not. This makes a surprisingly big difference when you are exonerated.
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Aug 20, 2017 19:41
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tsa posted:Actually when guilt is certain and the crime is heinous, like lets say a nazi terrorist murdering / maiming people with a car, or murdering 9 black church-goers, the death penalty is perfectly appropriate and justified. In jail he could radicalize other people to commit terror or cause harm to other inmates. The fact is there are people so dangerous that the only option for jailing them would be lifetime solitary confinement which is basically the death penalty by another name. Giving a botched lethal injection to and thereby martyring a nazi terrorist also seems likely to radicalize someone, as opposed to reforming them and allowing them to repent and live out the rest of their days in shame.
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Aug 20, 2017 19:50
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you, complacent sheeple: killing people has many disadvantages me, rational man of justice: the joker is real and he must be executed
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Aug 20, 2017 20:06
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I'm shocked that posters in this thread are against the death penalty given that many posters periodically fantasize in this thread about the execution of Republicans and violent secession of California from the Union whenever their favorite politicians are not in power in the Federal government.
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Aug 20, 2017 20:17
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