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LMAO Brazilians won't get off the loving couch not even to poo poo
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Aug 17, 2017 18:51
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Polidoro posted:Why would Brazil have a civil war? Temer has a lower approval rating than even Maduro, periodic riots, judicial collusion with the right wing (see below), gutting labour laws back to the 19th century, etc. Seems like a shitstorm's coming. joepinetree posted:So just to recap: mila kunis fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Aug 17, 2017 |
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Aug 17, 2017 19:37
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tekz posted:Temer has a lower approval rating than even Maduro, periodic riots, judicial collusion with the right wing, gutting labour laws back to the 19th century, etc. Seems like a shitstorm's coming. You're pretty much correct expect for the riots. You can't even compare to what's happening in Venezuela, seriously. And things won't change around here for the next few decades, being optimistic. Negostrike fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Aug 17, 2017 |
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Aug 17, 2017 19:40
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tekz posted:Temer has a lower approval rating than even Maduro, periodic riots, judicial collusion with the right wing (see below), gutting labour laws back to the 19th century, etc. Seems like a shitstorm's coming. The level of social decay is not nearly comparable. I know it's hard to picture just how broken Venezuelan society is from the outside, but we're talking about a place where it is common to queue up for hours, queues in which people get mugged and murdered, for a loaf of bread.
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Aug 17, 2017 20:54
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Brazî: 0%. Temer might be a corrupt unpopular sack of poo poo, but he'll be out the next election which is pretty soon and Brazil is actually a democracy and has a reasonably functional economy. Venezuela: probably not soon since the military is super corrupt and in the pocket of the government (or vice versa). Check back for more if the PDVSA collapses so hard it can't even pay for food and wages for the military and police, but even then maybe not. Mugabe somehow stayed on even though no civil servants received wages. Though of course the countries are massively different so comparisons are almost meaningless. Also the Venezuelans seem to have largely given up and decided to either flee the country or gradually starve to death. IMO all hope is lost, but maybe someone better informed than me has an inkling of hope left for the county.
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Aug 17, 2017 20:57
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fnox posted:The level of social decay is not nearly comparable. I know it's hard to picture just how broken Venezuelan society is from the outside, but we're talking about a place where it is common to queue up for hours, queues in which people get mugged and murdered, for a loaf of bread. Yeah I hope Brazil doesn't hit those lows. Temer needs to be booted out asap.
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Aug 17, 2017 23:29
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tekz posted:Yeah I hope Brazil doesn't hit those lows. Temer needs to be booted out asap. Calm down man. It's just a bad government, it's all happened before.
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Aug 17, 2017 23:58
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Polidoro posted:Calm down man. It's just a bad government, it's all happened before. That's what people say about Chavez  So what's the long term scenario? Will Madura be around for life until he dies then society will have a sliver of chance to reform? Some of these dictators can be around for a while and dismantle society until all hope is lost. And from within that despair the government might rebuild and reform. It's just so bizarre to me that Venezuela basically voted itself into non existent and died like some flesh eating disease. Didn't even need a cultural revolution purge like Mao to develop a generation of crazy baby boomers
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Aug 18, 2017 06:32
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caberham posted:That's what people say about Chavez With how quickly the US is moving now I don't see Maduro lasting much longer. I think they finally realised that the MUD has become the official opposition and the only way to prevent a civil war is to do something drastic right now. Pence had a tour in Latin America very recently where allegedly his only agenda was Venezuela, they're trying to come up with something most Latin American countries would at least not complain about, particularly Colombia which is the most affected party. Trump wants a geopolitical win and Venezuela is a lot easier to fix than his other option, North Korea.
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Aug 18, 2017 08:06
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fnox posted:Pence had a tour in Latin America very recently where allegedly his only agenda was Venezuela I don't know about the rest of your post, but I personally don't see the USA doing much beyond statements. On the Pence issue, at least for Argentina, the agenda was 100% trade and economics. There was a boilerplate statement on Venezuela but all of the important negotiations and meetings were mainly on trade matters.
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Aug 18, 2017 14:24
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Yeah, the US isn't going to do anything more serious than voting against the Venezuelan dictatorship in OAS and the UN, at least until Maduro starts killing people en masse or if the humanitarian crisis reaches a breaking point. Though honestly the camel of the Venezuelan people seems to bear an unlimited number of straws, so not sure about the latter becoming an international issue.
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Aug 18, 2017 15:06
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One thing worth mentioning that I'd recently heard in a Brookings podcast is that Venezuela is kind of expendable from an international standpoint, in that not many countries, if any, are dependent on a strong and stable Venezuela. With oil markets the way they've been, Venezuela is not a fixture in the continent like Argentina and Brazil. What that means for policy is that countries both inside and outside of South America aren't going to have a pressing need to get really involved in resolving the crisis. Obviously there's people who would like for Venezuela's economy and government to be fixed, but how many of them are willing to fight for it? To take risks to make it happen? The only ones with any real skin in the game are the Venezuelan people, and they're likely going to be on their own for the most part, unless things change dramatically. Everyone keeps talking about what the US is going to do. What other countries are going to go. That's probably the wrong way of looking at it. One stat that was brought up that I couldn't believe. Something like 80% of Venezuelans have lost 20 pounds over the last year or two. Really effective in getting a sense of how dire the situation is economically.
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Aug 18, 2017 15:37
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Ism't there a risk that Venezuela could turn into a major source of narcotics? I'd think the US would have an interest in a cooperative government then.
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Aug 18, 2017 15:42
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The rise of ISIS in Syria and Iraq didn't cause the US to decide that it needed to push for new governance in the region, even though current governance was largely to blame. If Venezuela became a major problem with narcotics, well hell, that's why we need to build a wall. 
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Aug 18, 2017 15:49
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catfry posted:Ism't there a risk that Venezuela could turn into a major source of narcotics? I'd think the US would have an interest in a cooperative government then. Venezuela IS a major source of narcotics, it's replaced Colombia in that regard. The difference is that drugs aren't grown there, Venezuela serves as a hub through which drugs are exported elsewhere.
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Aug 18, 2017 17:19
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caberham posted:So what's the long term scenario? Will Madura be around for life until he dies then society will have a sliver of chance to reform? Maduro has made it abundantly clear that he doesn't intend to be voted out of office. As long as he keeps the military happy and on his side, I'm afraid the outlook is pretty grim.
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Aug 18, 2017 17:53
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Volkerball posted:The rise of ISIS in Syria and Iraq didn't cause the US to decide that it needed to push for new governance in the region, even though current governance was largely to blame. If Venezuela became a major problem with narcotics, well hell, that's why we need to build a wall. It was hosed up, I agree. The US should have pushed for regime change in Turkey and KSA for supporting and funding jihadists in the region.
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Aug 18, 2017 18:16
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Out of curiosity, how often is the census taken in Venezuela and how reliable has it been in the past?
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Aug 18, 2017 18:38
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Two big news today:
wdarkk posted:Out of curiosity, how often is the census taken in Venezuela and how reliable has it been in the past? The census is conducted by the Instituto Nacional de Estadisticas (INE). I think the census is supposed to happen within a maximum of 15 years from the last one. The last census was in 2011. I can't speak to its accuracy, but if the rest of the government is any indication, then it's probably not all that great.
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Aug 19, 2017 01:18
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When I read that ortega and her husband escaped by boat, I immediately thought the couple got in a rowboat and frantically paddled out of venezuela.
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Aug 19, 2017 03:57
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Pharohman777 posted:When I read that ortega and her husband escaped by boat, I immediately thought the couple got in a rowboat and frantically paddled out of venezuela. Univision was the first to break the news and they say that they took a "lancha rapida" (literally "fast boat", and I think it might mean "speedboat") at 2:30 AM, so it sounds like they booked it out of Venezuela. Aruba's only about 25-30 kilometers away from Venezuela at the point from which Ortega Diaz and her party left:  Univision also said that alongside Ortega Diaz and Ferrer were her chief of staff and a prosecutor who specializes in corruption cases.
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Aug 19, 2017 14:57
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Apparently Julio Borges' son fatally ran over a kid in the neighbourhood they live in, which is the reason he's not in the AN today.
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Aug 19, 2017 19:08
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Jesus loving Christ, the government's attack line to smear Luisa Ortega's image is that she was a white supremacist. In case anyone was wondering why Bob was adamant about race being one of the reasons for the country's downfall and where that was coming from, well, its the official party line. Luisa Ortega Diaz was appointed by Chavez and was well respected by Chavismo until the day she dared to make a single utterance that wasn't a praise to Maduro.
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Aug 20, 2017 10:39
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A better way to smear her would be to point out that she loyally towed the line for years in an ever increasingly authoritarian government that completely destroyed the notion of an independent judiciary and that uses it to persecute political rivals of the regime. As a fellow traveler in a high position she carries a lot of responsibility for the crimes committed and should be held accountable, regardless of if she's now had a change of heart. Just to be clear, I do admire the fact that she has shown tremendous bravery to break ranks and to do what she is now doing, and I know it's very easy and not particularly helpful for someone on the sidelines to be making moral judgements. But in the long term when the histories are written and blame assigned, her contribution to the current disaster should not be ignored.
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Aug 20, 2017 11:25
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Luisa Ortega is now apparently going to travel to Washington and being given asylum...
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Aug 21, 2017 00:27
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JailTrump posted:Luisa Ortega is now apparently going to travel to Washington and being given asylum... Neat. Too bad for pretty much literally the rest of Venezuelans.
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Aug 21, 2017 02:16
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Chuck Boone posted:Univision was the first to break the news and they say that they took a "lancha rapida" (literally "fast boat", and I think it might mean "speedboat") at 2:30 AM, so it sounds like they booked it out of Venezuela. Did not remember that Aruba was a Dutch possession. The House of Orange will stop at nothing to destroy proletarian revolutionary consciousness. Edit: also missed Beatrix abdicating, guess I'm awful at the Dutch Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Aug 21, 2017 |
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Aug 21, 2017 03:34
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fnox posted:Jesus loving Christ, the government's attack line to smear Luisa Ortega's image is that she was a white supremacist. In case anyone was wondering why Bob was adamant about race being one of the reasons for the country's downfall and where that was coming from, well, its the official party line. Luisa Ortega Diaz was appointed by Chavez and was well respected by Chavismo until the day she dared to make a single utterance that wasn't a praise to Maduro. I guess they've just been watching the US news and it was on their mind.
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Aug 21, 2017 05:10
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I mean Maduro is obsessed with the US.
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Aug 21, 2017 05:24
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Pharohman777 posted:Yeah, if the threat is credible, and any more hits on US government officials are done, the US is perfectly justified in doing anything militarily to venezuela, from commando raids to drone strikes to actively supporting and arming a violent resistance. lol
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Aug 21, 2017 14:28
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wdarkk posted:I mean Maduro is obsessed with the US. Being loud and offensive about the US has served chavismo extremely well since the Chavez days. Just look at how many people come here claiming fantasy CIA intervention and how Venezuela is the Scrappy underdog fighting the big Empire.
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Aug 21, 2017 14:34
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People were talking earlier about why the military doesn't take any action. This article kind of explains the whole reason why... The Venezuelan Military has created and controls it's own parallel economy and service industry. With their own Banks, Farms, Construction Entities, Car Stores, ISP, TV Stations, Clothing and Cleaning Supply Factories, they don't have to face any of the shortages common citizens do. It's very bizarre.
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Aug 21, 2017 17:30
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I'v been reading up on how Venezuela got into this mess to begin with, and apparently socialism was to blame??? Are social democratic policies bad for latin american nations, or specifically for ones sitting on a poo poo-ton of oil? 
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Aug 21, 2017 23:38
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Grouchio posted:I'v been reading up on how Venezuela got into this mess to begin with, and apparently socialism was to blame??? Are social democratic policies bad for latin american nations, or specifically for ones sitting on a poo poo-ton of oil? Protip: Ayn Rand is not a good source to learn how to implement socialism.
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Aug 21, 2017 23:54
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Grouchio posted:I'v been reading up on how Venezuela got into this mess to begin with, and apparently socialism was to blame??? Are social democratic policies bad for latin american nations, or specifically for ones sitting on a poo poo-ton of oil? The problem was more that using Socialism as a distraction Chavez and Maduro looted the country of everything of value. When the previously existing wealth of the country was looted they seized control of the means of generating wealth, the companies, and then looted them. Once they had looted the present and current wealth of the country Maduro took out loans against the future wealth (oil revenue) of the country to loot that too.
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Aug 22, 2017 00:14
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The article I was reading thought that it was Betancourt, his socialism and the nationalization of the Oil fields that did Venezuela in: https://mises.org/blog/venezuela-chavez-prelude-socialist-failure
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Aug 22, 2017 00:55
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You might want to look up what the "Mises Institute" is, how it was founded, where it gets its funding, etc....
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Aug 22, 2017 00:58
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Bob le Moche posted:You might want to look up what the "Mises Institute" is, how it was founded, where it gets its funding, etc.... Yeah seriously anything from Mises needs to be taken with a whole loving mine of salt.
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Aug 22, 2017 01:02
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Grouchio posted:The article I was reading thought that it was Betancourt, his socialism and the nationalization of the Oil fields that did Venezuela in: https://mises.org/blog/venezuela-chavez-prelude-socialist-failure Rómulo Betancourt died in 1981 before the oil industry was fully nationalized under PDVSA in the 80s, and had been out of power for a long time. And Venezuela had done quite well through many years after that and even well into the Chavez administration which started in 1999.
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Aug 22, 2017 01:11
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I want to thank the unironic mises.org link for the flashback
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Aug 22, 2017 01:40
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