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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Yeah, but it also limits the extent to which evasive behavior can be skilled. With overwatch already having zero acceleration, if favoring the defender feels like it'd be an insane buff to characters with smaller hitboxes. Or am I missing something? I don't really play shooters much so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.
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Aug 21, 2017 01:52
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Hitbox reduction is by far the least-offensive nerf they could have gone with. I've said this before but almost every character / weapon / model in this game could do with tighter hitboxes, it's just never going to happen because a) you kind of need loose hitboxes to compensate for the total lack of momentum in character movement in Overwatch and b) stuff being easy to hit just feels better and that's too valuable to Blizzard to give up. Well, yeah, if you want a game with mass appeal it needs to be easy enough to be playable by the masses. High skill floor games can create passionate and highly competitive fanbases but they're not going to sell 10 million copies.
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Aug 21, 2017 01:54
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Wrist Watch posted:With overwatch already having zero acceleration, if favoring the defender feels like it'd be an insane buff to characters with smaller hitboxes. No, that's exactly what I'm saying. You couldn't change the one thing without the other becoming imbalanced, and changing both would result in a game that feels completely different. (And I actually really like the lack of momentum, it feels fantastic.)
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Aug 21, 2017 01:56
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 I can't readI agree on it feeling great to play though. I've never really gotten hooked by a shooter before, but movement in this game tickles that part of me that enjoys fast, twitchy games in a way other shooters never quite did.
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Aug 21, 2017 02:07
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Kai Tave posted:His rocket punch does literally the lowest amount of damage it's possible to deal in the game and qualify as a 1HKO against anyone not named Tracer. Full charge rocket punch does 250, actually, Exactly the same as a Hanzo headshot. Minrad posted:he crushes the pro/high end comp meta of tracer/genji/dva/winston/lucio/zenyatta and has one of the highest winrates in the game. His winrate has stabilized pretty significantly since the first week, though he is still a half a percent or so above Genji, who is probably his most direct comparison.
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Aug 21, 2017 02:18
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The Blue Caboose posted:Full charge rocket punch does 250, actually, Exactly the same as a Hanzo headshot. Ah, that's my bad then, I knew the punch did 100 but wasn't aware the wall impact did 150. I haven't had very many Doomfist vs Mei/Reaper games where I've gotten a clean punch on either, thanks for the clarification.
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Aug 21, 2017 02:30
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Kai Tave posted:Ah, that's my bad then, I knew the punch did 100 but wasn't aware the wall impact did 150. I haven't had very many Doomfist vs Mei/Reaper games where I've gotten a clean punch on either, thanks for the clarification. I was actually pretty sure it was 100/100 at first too, but I've been punched through a healthpack and came out the other side with 50 HP left. I honestly think my issues with Doomfist come down to two big things. 1. Doomfist is too reliant on his m2. 2. Doomfist's m2 is too forgiving of both positioning and angle. For 1., Doomfist doesn't encourage a good player to make decisions about skill use. Tracer and Genji have to decide whether or not they're going to use their cooldowns offensively or to escape. Doomfist just m2's someone, then uses everything else to get away. For 2., the PTR changes should hopefully remedy this. One of the big things is that Doomfist's punch is kinda like pool physics, where if Doomfist hits on his right side, the opponent will shoot off to the left. If the hitbox is smaller, there will be less weird ricochet angles, and you're less likely to randomly die when he charges straight at you down a hallway. Hopefully the PTR changes are enough to not dumpster Doomfist but force him to make more interesting decisions to secure kills.
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Aug 21, 2017 02:43
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Bumper Stickup posted:Pretty sure people haven't figured out that a well timed flashbang will actually stop a Doomfist punch entirely. Also the stigma of him being an off-meta character is a factor. yeah i see a lot of people saying that sombra shits on doomfist but she's got nothing on mcree. i can't interrupt a flashbang by spritzing the guy and i can't punch through it either. that said it's telling how both the strongest contenders on locking him down are nearly completely based around crippling his rocket punch. that's the whole crux of the issue: doomfist's kind of a one trick pony, but it's a really, really good trick.
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Aug 21, 2017 02:50
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The Blue Caboose posted:I was actually pretty sure it was 100/100 at first too, but I've been punched through a healthpack and came out the other side with 50 HP left. I feel like as more players get comfortable with Doomfist both as and against that you'll naturally see more Doomfist players having to adopt a less one-trick approach. Right now the character is still new enough that people haven't developed the sort of good habits they have when playing into other characters, so Doomfists don't have as much incentive to broaden their playstyle, but I think that given time both sides will find ways to up their game. The fact that his winrates aren't grotesquely out of whack suggests that if he really is degenerate people haven't figured out how yet. Cowcaster posted:yeah i see a lot of people saying that sombra shits on doomfist but she's got nothing on mcree. i can't interrupt a flashbang by spritzing the guy and i can't punch through it either. With Sombra it's less about the punch, though that's certainly a welcome benefit, but the fact that hacking Doomfist robs him of all his mobility. I've found hacking Doomfist to be way easier than hacking Tracers, who frequently blink all over the place even if they don't notice you specifically, but Doomfist players seem to hate blowing their cooldowns to avoid getting hacked, and from there all he's got is his fist shotguns.
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Aug 21, 2017 03:31
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Kai Tave posted:I feel like as more players get comfortable with Doomfist both as and against that you'll naturally see more Doomfist players having to adopt a less one-trick approach. Right now the character is still new enough that people haven't developed the sort of good habits they have when playing into other characters, so Doomfists don't have as much incentive to broaden their playstyle, but I think that given time both sides will find ways to up their game. The fact that his winrates aren't grotesquely out of whack suggests that if he really is degenerate people haven't figured out how yet. Doomfist might end up being legitimately degenerate at the professional level. Note that Tracer has been a meta staple forever despite producing a -5% winrate at most levels. You mentioned earlier that you see a lot of Doomfists biffing their escapes-- what about when you play at a level where that doesn't happen? I don't think that Doomfist is going to ever need to go all in unless rocket punch gets rebalanced. There's no reason for him to adopt any other playstyle if he can get picks when keeping his mobility in reserve. If Genji's primary fire was good enough to confirm kills and dash reset didn't encourage him to use dash offensively then he'd never bother dashing for damage, only to escape. Kai Tave posted:With Sombra it's less about the punch, though that's certainly a welcome benefit, but the fact that hacking Doomfist robs him of all his mobility. I've found hacking Doomfist to be way easier than hacking Tracers, who frequently blink all over the place even if they don't notice you specifically, but Doomfist players seem to hate blowing their cooldowns to avoid getting hacked, and from there all he's got is his fist shotguns. It's also quite easy for Tracer to spray a couple rounds at a Sombra and interrupt the hack, while it is quite difficult to secure hits at medium range on a Sombra as Doomfist. You might not have prevented the kill, but at least you should be able to confirm the trade.
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Aug 21, 2017 04:04
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What if doomfist mouse2 had the same speed, damage, cooldown and hitbox size as it did now, but did less damage and knockback if it wasn't a solid center-mass hit? Kinda like reinhardt charge when it glances but on a smaller scale.
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Aug 21, 2017 05:18
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It needs to do the damage that it has now in order to confirm kills on 250 HP heroes though. And latency will literally be the determining factor for whether or not it's a 'center mass' hit, particularly on heroes with small/agile hitboxes already like genji and tracer.
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Aug 21, 2017 05:28
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The Blue Caboose posted:Doomfist might end up being legitimately degenerate at the professional level. Note that Tracer has been a meta staple forever despite producing a -5% winrate at most levels. You mentioned earlier that you see a lot of Doomfists biffing their escapes-- what about when you play at a level where that doesn't happen? On the one hand you have a good point, but on the other hand at a level where Doomfist players are that good I would expect everyone else playing other characters to also be playing at that level of skill. The real test is going to be if these high-level Doomfist players are going to be disproportionately stomping all over high-level whoever else players the less noise you get in everyone's performance. It's entirely possible he might be broken! But it's still early days yet. A lot of players are very, very slow to respond to things that force them out of a meta comfort zone, which makes sense because you invest a lot of time and effort getting good at a thing and don't want to change unless it becomes unavoidable.
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Aug 21, 2017 05:34
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Embrace your inner McCree* and never fear the fist.  *Or one of his many other counters/dissuaders but like I can't think of a SA smilie for Mei.
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Aug 21, 2017 06:07
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turtlecrunch posted:*Or one of his many other counters/dissuaders but like I can't think of a SA smilie for Mei. 
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Aug 21, 2017 06:12
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Just a reminder Blizzard's Gamescom coverage starts at 9AM pacific/11AM central tomorrow (Aug 21). Embedded the stream below: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN4ZtnLO9WE New map reveal and animated short. teagone fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Aug 21, 2017 |
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Aug 21, 2017 06:14
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This is anecdotal experience, but Minrad (who I consider to be a very good player) and I spent many hours today destroying people with him on Doomfist and me as a pocket Zarya feeding Projected Barriers into him whenever possible. He got POTG in more than 2/3rds of our matches, and we rarely ran into situations where we felt like we ever had to switch off to other heroes. It's such a super noticeable difference bubbling a Doomfist compared to a Genji or Soldier or Pharah or something. All of these other heroes still are constrained by their ammo count (reloading is super time-consuming in the middle of a firefight!) and having much fewer options for mobility. Their TTK is also obviously much slower compared to Doomfist. Not having to ever bother stopping to reload combined with the sheer mobility he has means he can tear through teams. Ostensibly his weak point is that he has to be in melee to do anything but with bubbles covering him and the shield generation he can just keep on trucking all day long. You can reproduce similar results with I guess a Reaper but Reaper still has to reload his shotguns, has only one mobility/escape ability (and it barely moves him any faster than regular speed), and doesn't demand nearly as much attention and energy from the enemy team to deal with him. When he ghosts out the enemy can turn and start blasting at me. Doesn't happen with Doomfist who can keep on soaking and generating shield, leaving me free to laser down enemies unharassed. With a Genji? So much of his damage is packed into Dragonblade that you're waiting for so much longer for him to build ult charge before he can start scything through the enemy team with impunity. Doomfist is like having Dragonblade out all the time -- and he still builds ult meter for Meteor Strike! Minrad posted:IDK, I play that hero and I don't think, I don't try to live or juke, I just go for a kill on healer and damage the rest of their team as much as possible. The cooldowns are so short that you usually get two kills or get a chance to escape after that. Again, obviously anecdotal, and it seems Doomfist isn't really outperforming Genji by too much in the competitive scene?
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Aug 21, 2017 06:20
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oh!
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Aug 21, 2017 06:56
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SKULL.GIF posted:Again, obviously anecdotal, and it seems Doomfist isn't really outperforming Genji by too much in the competitive scene? It's too early to tell.
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Aug 21, 2017 07:00
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And if it turns out, after enough time and play has gone by to really get a picture of how Doomfist shakes out past the new car phase, that he really is stupid busted OP then sure, maybe he'll need to be tuned downward. Or maybe other characters will need to be rebalanced around him because Minrad does have a point that Doomfist feels really good, but that's to Blizzard's credit rather than something they messed up. More characters should feel like that tbh.
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Aug 21, 2017 07:12
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berenzen posted:Or not, because he actually has generally salient points, he's just a bit abrasive in his posting at times. Doomfist is not a broken hero, his winrates are stabilizing closer to a 50% winrate in competitive solo queue, and at a pro-level he's seeing play, but he's not ubiquitous as you normally see with broken heroes like 600 HP D.Va/ Current Winston/ Pre-nerf Ana. I'm just saying there are lots of constructive posts here and in the Tryhard thread that aren't accompanied by the sound of grinding teeth and screeching iron dogstile posted:Good username/post combo 
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Aug 21, 2017 07:42
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SKULL.GIF posted:This is anecdotal experience, but Minrad (who I consider to be a very good player) and I spent many hours today destroying people with him on Doomfist and me as a pocket Zarya feeding Projected Barriers into him whenever possible. He got POTG in more than 2/3rds of our matches, and we rarely ran into situations where we felt like we ever had to switch off to other heroes. I mean, Zarya/Doomfist is the core of the quote-unquote phalanx comp that's been seeing play in the korean scene, because they complement each-other really well and help cover the other's weaknesses. Zarya has a lot of issues if she's low energy and she gets dove hard, and it turns out that doomfist peels really well if the enemy comes to him, and Zarya helps out with Doomfist's survivability. It's a really strong combination, but it's not unbeatable, but it needs a good amount of communication in order to ensure the kill or the doomfist to make a mistake.
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Aug 21, 2017 07:54
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teagone posted:It's too early to tell. it really is but I will say that I always like this point of overwatch where things are in the middle of changing up either pro teams will figure something out or blizzard will kill doomfist entirely and make the meta stabilize again, but until then I'm enjoying watching teams start to try stuff out again even when it doesn't work
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Aug 21, 2017 07:58
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I hate people who just follow the meta... Yes that may be the meta until another meta comes along, I play with a friend and we nearly always share 5 gold and 5 silver between us, We both usually get POTG unless there is a bastion/torb stealing it. I play Zen he plays Symmetra The usual match goes "***** change Symmetra she is toxic, cannot do anything then when we win and she gets POTG they get all salty and report her for being a bad player
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Aug 21, 2017 08:01
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Just like in League or DotA, gently caress the meta. It's better to play with a hero you're actually good with rather than an on-meta character you're only passable with/have no interest in.
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Aug 21, 2017 08:08
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teagone posted:Just a reminder Blizzard's Gamescom coverage starts at 9AM pacific/11AM central tomorrow (Aug 21). Embedded the stream below: as a counter reminder the actual short won't be until wednesday, but tomorrow is going to be a video showing the new map and stuff for other games.
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Aug 21, 2017 08:13
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TheresaJayne posted:We both usually get POTG unless there is a bastion/torb stealing it. This suggests that you're playing at a fairly low skill rating, and so meta discussions probably don't matter as much, because you and your teammates likely don't have the mechanical execution where strategy discussion is relevant. As you start seeing mechanical skill, game sense, and position increase, intrateam strategies and team compositions make up far more of a difference. If there's a small group of heroes that are utterly dominant at high levels of SR, to the point where the entire metagame revolves around them, then that's degeneracy, and will drive top-end play from your game. Metagames shift, but we've been stuck in a dive-dominant metagame for about 6 months now- and there's been showing little signs of any shift from that and it's exhausting pro players and streamers who are tired of seeing the same 8-10 heroes in every single match in order for them to have a chance at winning, unless they just completely outskill the other team by several hundred SR and can carry with whatever hero they're good at. And if pro players leave the game, high-end strategy leaves the game and eventually you'll start seeing a hemorraging. Considering that blizzard wants Overwatch to be their non-Wow cash cow, that's not a good thing for them. Having a balanced upper-end metagame is healthy for the long-term health of a game. No, the metagame doesn't affect you, because you're not good enough for it to affect you. But stop thinking that the game is fine at all levels of play, just because you aren't seeing any issues. berenzen fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Aug 21, 2017 |
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Aug 21, 2017 08:19
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I'd just like to reiterate, I have spoken earlier and had a nice chat with Kai about posting this thread. There is room for both positive and negative discussion here as it is the general thread and not one of the other three alignment threads. I feel Kai deserves a second chance in here and hope they receive it. Since my post I have seen no reason anyone should have been mad at Kai's posts and poster 'Autism Sneaks' was very incorrect.
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Aug 21, 2017 08:46
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Kerrrrrrr posted:as a counter reminder the actual short won't be until wednesday, but tomorrow is going to be a video showing the new map and stuff for other games. poo poo, I thought the short was debuting the first day. 
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Aug 21, 2017 09:22
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C'mon new payload map.
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Aug 21, 2017 09:31
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Characters who don't have a map associated with them yet: Junkrat/Roadhog, Torbjorn, D.Va, Lucio, Mercy, Symmetra Of course they might do a completely character-unrelated map like Oasis and Ilios, but the characters above make for a decent bet-- especially since none of them have had an animated short yet. I'm rooting for the short and the map to be MEKA-related. I wanna know what their deal is.
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Aug 21, 2017 09:54
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if you live in america go stare at the sun instead of that stream and catch the vod later, imo.
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Aug 21, 2017 09:55
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VideoGames posted:I'd just like to reiterate, I have spoken earlier and had a nice chat with Kai about posting this thread. There is room for both positive and negative discussion here as it is the general thread and not one of the other three alignment threads. I feel Kai deserves a second chance in here and hope they receive it. You know what? I'll take them off my list for now, but if I regret this I'm coming for YOU NEXT Mr. VideoGames , and you don't have a red star to protect you from my buttons!!
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Aug 21, 2017 10:22
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Supercar Gautier posted:Characters who don't have a map associated with them yet: Junkrat/Roadhog, Torbjorn, D.Va, Lucio, Mercy, Symmetra Lucio + Junkrat/Roadhog has the Rio + Sydney Lucioball maps, but a techno-future Rio Di Janeiro would be awesome, as would seeing Seoul or any of the Indian cities.
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Aug 21, 2017 11:46
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Autism Sneaks posted:You know what? I'll take them off my list for now, but if I regret this I'm coming for YOU NEXT Mr. VideoGames , and you don't have a red star to protect you from my buttons!! That is fine with me! I stand by my decision and by Kai! Paint the target on me instead 
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Aug 21, 2017 11:49
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Maybe it's just because I'm getting matched with the players who are in the same general boat as me, trying to do their placements right before the season ends, but there does seem to be a culture shift on console comp. It's a lot less toxic, people leave less often and it doesn't seem like everyone is rushing to slam on the defensive characters no matter what map type it is. I've actually been pressed into playing primarily offensive characters in 3 of my 5 placements so far, and only have healed for one, which is normally pretty much the only thing I do outside of the arcade.
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Aug 21, 2017 11:50
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I really hope Doomfist survives to the world cup finals, or at least that they keep them on this patch. The Zarya/Doomfist comp seems like a good way to shake up what has been a very stale metagame.
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Aug 21, 2017 12:35
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The Blue Caboose posted:1. Doomfist is too reliant on his m2. Back in the day I could far more reliably kill someone with a hook combo than with, say, Tracers bomb. Before someone comes in to tell me I'm bad, that hog is balanced and I just need to get good its not a balance issue, its a design issue. Blizzard aren't really fixing the hog issues, more sweeping them under the carpet, but that doesn't change my opinion that he was a problem. Hanzo sucks but still has notable design flaws.
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Aug 21, 2017 12:48
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Its more i'd like for characters to be punished for using one hit ko abilities. Hog had the massive slowdown and if he missed it he was pretty useless outside of his engagement range for 8 seconds. Doomfist misses and he just uppercut combo's you instead then goes back to fisting constantly. Doesn't help that I barely have to aim with him to get kills.
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Aug 21, 2017 14:09
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Minrad posted:if you live in america go stare at the sun instead of that stream and catch the vod later, imo. Best post in thread
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