Sneakster posted:

Stolen from Trump thread:

https://twitter.com/thedailybeast/status/899316126454349824
https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/899278402133295105

Starting to think that the violently anti-integration anti-racist liberal ally bourgeois considering the only options as minimum wage 39 hours/wk retail being reasonable for everyone might make them actually worse than the nazis who are at least honest about preferring segregation without hiding behind a government subsidized half a million dollar house in an all white neighborhood complaining that racism is the ugliest part of all of this.

Call Me Charlie posted:

They really aren't but they also aren't helping the situation by behaving the way they are. Trying to lump Trump, all his supporters and the alt-right into the white supremacist category is only going to embolden the latter and potentially normalize them the same way that Breitbart/Infowars is now approaching the mainstream instead of being the niche outliers they were.

Also that second tweet is quoting the WaPo story I linked earlier. It's worth a full read, although it has some flaws. I don't get how anybody could read the profile of how those six losers (and that's what they are, complete losers with nothing meaningful in their lives) became radicalized enough to travel to a white supremacist rally and think the solution to the problem is physical violence against them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...767b_story.html

gohmak posted:

Hahaha

Brony Car posted:

The Failing New York Times came out with another article to depress me:

A Deal Breaker for Trump’s Supporters? Nope. Not This Time, Either.

I despair a lot.

Call Me Charlie posted:

Also that second tweet is quoting the WaPo story I linked earlier. It's worth a full read, although it has some flaws. I don't get how anybody could read the profile of how those six losers (and that's what they are, complete losers with nothing meaningful in their lives) became radicalized enough to travel to a white supremacist rally and think the solution to the problem is physical violence against them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...767b_story.html

Sneakster posted:

If the nazis and antifa came to a truce and agreed capitalism had to be dismantled and rioted in the white people part of cities, it would be a glorious day.

Ardennes posted:

Yeah, that isn't going to happen, Antifa has good reasons to well be...anti-fascist.

That said, I do notice there is a desperate attempt to try to pretend class and inequality has nothing to do with what is going on. It is because those arguing against it don't want to "humanize" the far-right or that they simply don't want to admit economic inequality is a powerful force? Either way, the circus the situation has become hides the growing economic divide that is occurring that in many ways has cut across both race and sex.

Sneakster posted:

If they were really dedicated to racism, they should have stayed in college. Black people used to call me white trash, now they beg me for change, and soon I'll be able to afford to live in an all white neighborhood. I'm not racist, I'm just capitalist, like JeffersonClay, minus his notorious scat fetish. Fiscally conservative, socially inclusive, except in housing and economic policy, its cool, I vote Democrat, not Berniecrat, lol.

freckle posted:

Sneakster posted:

Many people have traveled hundreds of miles for concerts, so the distance for spectacle isn't the dumbest thing.

You're kind of a piece of poo poo. They're losers because they're poor, the rest of its filled with embarrassing stupidity, but fundamentally their story is the same for most poor people. They're proving their point that violence becoming increasingly necessary for any kind of reform will only come through them embracing tribalism when social liberalism is tolerated in so far as it facilitates market liberalism. The people tweeting that are infinitely worse, because they're normalizing a status quo that needs to be violently torn down that's precluded by a lack of social cohesion via tribalism.

Majorian posted:

Yeah, see, this is why people think you're MIGF, Sneakster.

Majorian posted:

Yeah, see, this is why people think you're MIGF, Sneakster.

Call Me Charlie posted:

Ehhhhhhh, being poor doesn't excuse people for falling in with white supremacist groups. It's a tragedy that they fell through the cracks of society and they don't deserve to get pummeled every time they walk outdoors or attempt to speak but that doesn't change the fact it takes a specific sort of person to transform into one of those extremists.

I have trouble feeling much sympathy for them despite having elements of it in my family. (My brother briefly flirted with it when he was in high school and one of my dad's best friends is a very wealthy, yet crazy, 'patriot')

The people featured in the WaPo article weren't doing it for the spectacle, they were doing it to make a statement. It's important to call them out for their behavior while also looking at the symptoms that created them. Thinking that it's possible to Captain America punch them back into the darkness is doing neither.

Sneakster posted:

I've been to frat parties, they're basically white power rallies with more drugs and date rape. Those people actually have power though, but their lack of humiliation makes them less viscerally offensive.

Inescapable Duck posted:

So apparently the DNC is going broke, while Republicans are swimming in donations.

Inescapable Duck posted:

So apparently the DNC is going broke, while Republicans are swimming in donations.

quote:

Months of post-election malaise hamstrung the Democratic National Committee’s (DNC) fundraising over the first six months of 2017, creating a serious money gap with Republicans and raising questions about Democrats’ ability to take advantage of opportunities in the 2018 midterm elections.

The DNC raised $38.2 million in the first half of the year, compared with the Republican National Committee's (RNC) $75.4 million haul during that period — a $37.2 million difference. As of June 30, the RNC has almost $45 million in the bank, while the DNC has just under $7.5 million, along with $3 million in debt.

quote:

Perez noted that the party is still in the process of staffing up in a statement to The Hill.

“At the DNC, we are still building up our team, including hiring fundraising staff, and making sure every aspect of our organization is moving in lockstep,” he said.

“We’re confident that our team will raise the resources needed as we head into 2018 and beyond.”

That’s why one longtime Democratic fundraiser told The Hill that he was “shocked” the party managed to raise even as much as it has — more than it had at this point in each of the past two cycles — with such a shoestring staff.

quote:

The concerns extend beyond staffing and affect both high-dollar and low-dollar donors.

After a full-court press meant to raise hundreds of millions for Hillary Clinton’s campaign and allied groups — an effort most Democrats expected would end with her in the White House — major donors admit that they are tired.

And those donors who are used to being wooed by fundraisers featuring the president of the United States and other party luminaries in former President Barack Obama’s administration have to get used to the party’s new, diminished position, where many of the party’s old standbys are sitting on the sidelines.

On the other end of the spectrum, many progressive supporters of Sen. Bernie Sanders's (I-Vt.) presidential bid are still smarting from the revelation that top DNC figures were biased against Sanders throughout the primary.

Then there’s the question of a unified message, a battle still being waged in Democratic circles even after a number of party leaders backed the “Better Deal” economic plan last month.

"You've gotta give people something to be for," Democratic strategist Jamal Simmons said.

"Democratic voters are all united in believing Donald Trump should not be in office and be contained. What they're waiting on is a direct and positive agenda that they can believe in to deal with the problems the country faces."

" 'A Better Deal' was a good start, but everyone needs to start singing from the same song book," Simmons said. "We're getting there, but it's now eight months so time for us to be there."

The DNC’s fundraising woes have not extended to party committees and candidates. On the House side, both the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee and the National Republican Congressional Committee each raised about $60 million in the first six months of 2017. The Republican group has a $12 million advantage in cash on hand.

Republican House candidates have narrowly outraised Democratic House candidates, $145.4 million to $142 million.

Comparing Senate candidates is more difficult, since many more Democratic incumbents than Republicans find themselves in difficult reelection fights. But the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee outraised the National Republican Senatorial Campaign by a slim $700,000 margin.

While the DNC struggles to catch up, the RNC’s fundraising operation is steaming ahead. The $75.4 million haul in the first six months of 2017 represents the most the party has ever raised in the first six months of a non-presidential election year and is far more than Democrats raised in the first six months of 2009 after Obama took office.

Trump has also been a boon for RNC fundraising. A June fundraiser at his D.C. hotel raised $10 million for his reelection and the party, according to The Associated Press.

With Trump’s help, the RNC continues to pull big money from small donors, raising $33 million in donations under $200. Through the first six months of 2017, the RNC has raised more online than it has in an entire year, with the exception of 2008.

While the DNC raised from small donors in 2017 more than it did in the first six months of any year since 2014, it still fell $11 million behind the RNC’s total.

Democratic fundraisers and donors agree that they aren’t ready to sound the alarm just yet. But they say they’ll be looking to the DNC to evaluate its path forward and make sure it has a sound strategy to move in the right direction and make sure the party has every resource it needs.

“There’s less concern about whether we have the donor base that has the resources and the checkbook to support the effort we need. It’s more about how do we come up with the strategies and the tools to really inspire our donors to give consistently,” a top Democratic fundraiser said.

"The goal should be: How do we have a fundraising strategy and infrastructure that doesn’t have to rebuild and reinvent themselves after every cycle and every loss?”

Sneakster posted:

(anti-semitism is almost non-existent in every demographic except black people statistically).

Lightning Knight posted:

lmao all of these posts were dumb but in a era with literal Nazi demonstrations, "black people are the real racists against Jews" is a special kind of asinine.

Thug Lessons posted:

Oh, definitely.

Sneakster posted:

It turns out that human beings are flawed. People harbor irrational tribalistic views to assert some kind of racial-conspiracy agency over society cause pissing on somebody else for existing is simpler than addressing society as a whole.

readingatwork posted:

Honestly I think people are being a bit too hard on Tina Fey right now. The bit was actually pretty funny and had some great zingers in it. I'll agree that the central thesis is problematic but there IS a legitimate debate to be had on the merits of engaging vs ignoring racist rallies considering the way they thrive on conflict.

Kilroy posted:

I can understand disliking the hopelessness of it, and agree that encouraging people to ignore them is completely the wrong message. I do think many people missed the part where the cake was an American flag and she was angrily tearing it apart with her fork throughout the bit. So there was a bit of a subversive tone to it. Not enough, though.

Call Me Charlie posted:

Trying to lump Trump, all his supporters and the alt-right into the white supremacist category is only going to embolden the latter and potentially normalize them the same way that Breitbart/Infowars is now approaching the mainstream instead of being the niche outliers they were.

Lightning Knight posted:

This is stupid because black people aren't the ones staging mass rallies with "Jews will not replace us" as their primary slogan and didn't support the President that has happily thrown in with fascist anti-Semites. Black people have no power to hurt Jewish people systemically.

Inescapable Duck posted:

The whole point of class structure is that depending on how much money your parents have and where you were born, you were brought up in a completely different world.

SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:

tbh unless someone gets up and says "go kill the bourgeoisie today" it won't be enough

Sneakster posted:

Considering the number of anti-semitic slurs I heard when canvassing in the primary, I'm going to politely disagree. Black anti-semitism cost Sanders the DNC primary the same way wasp anti-miscegenation...ism cost !Jeb! the RNC primary.

Was it the only factor, or even the largest factor? No. Was it a relevant factor? Yes, more than people are comfortable with.

quote:

If the nazis and antifa came to a truce and agreed capitalism had to be dismantled and rioted in the white people part of cities, it would be a glorious day.

Inescapable Duck posted:

I think a winning strategy can be summed up in one sentence: Stop making it all about Trump.

As much as it's basically some Attention Economy silicon valley silliness, the candidate everyone's talking about tends to be the one who wins. The media and the Clinton campaign (almost the same drat thing at that point) wouldn't ever shut up about Trump and poured gasoline on that fire at every opportunity, because god knows they had fuckall of their own to actually talk about. ('read my web site') You win campaigns by making your opponent irrelevant.

Lightning Knight posted:

There's something delightfully absurd about "a major factor in black people not supporting Bernie Sanders as a group was because they are racist against Jewish people" as a premise by a nominally left-wing person in 2017 and yet here we are.

Cerebral Bore posted:

The only other people who I've ever seen argue that black people don't like Bernie are unreconstructed hillfolk lol

But I suppose it's possible that black people as a whole are lying in all those opinions polls that show that 70+% of African-Americans like Bernie just need some unskewing.

Inescapable Duck posted:

I mean, Trump is literally the opponent the Clinton campaign wanted, because they wouldn't have to actually compete with policies.

Lightning Knight posted:

The notion that they voted for Hillary out of some protofascist anti-Semitic beliefs is frankly bizarre and more than a little conspiratorial.

Mister Facetious posted:

Yeah, Trump had a policy of a Wall, and Hillary had no policies at all (except those provided by Goldman Sachs).

Yudo posted:

I agree with you; however temper your expectations: no one can or will do that. To crush a revolutionary or counterrevolutionary movement it takes way more than counter protesting. Perhaps they will go more underground, but not away.

Lightning Knight posted:

There's something delightfully absurd about "a major factor in black people not supporting Bernie Sanders as a group was because they are racist against Jewish people" as a premise by a nominally left-wing person in 2017 and yet here we are.

You also unironically wrote this:


So I'm not sure why I expect any different.

Sneakster posted:

Are you retarded? Seriously? I just showed you a Wapo article on documented exceptionally high rates of antisemitism. It exists. Victims of oppression can hold awful views too, often born out of irrational reaction to lived material conditions. I didn't say fascist, just, not big on jews. Nation of Islam dude? This isn't exactly a huge loving revelation unless your exposure to diversity starts and ends with Will Smith.

When I campaigned for Obama rednecks called him a muslim, and then said they're just not gonna vote for a black guy. Pretty sure they're racist, for irrational reasons. When I campaigned for Sanders and black dudes drunk in the middle of the afternoon started telling me about how the Jews ran the slave trade, pretty sure those guys were racist against Jewish people, for irrational reasons.

your dumb article posted:

A reader points me to the most recent ADL survey, from 2013, which shows a lower rate of black (22%) and Latino (36% foreign-born, 14% native-born) anti-Semitism than the article states. The 2011 data comes closer to matching the author’s assertion, but the overall figure there was not 12% but 15% overall, and 29% (not over 30%) for African Americans and 42 and 20% for foreign and native-born Latinos, respectively. The rates for whites were 8% and 9% in 2013 and 2011. So I’m not sure if the author is looking at different data, or just got his facts wrong. Nevertheless, the basic point, that “entrenched anti-Semitic views” are far more common among African Americans and Latinos than among others, still holds.

quote:

I'm the repeated implication that antifa are a monolith of ideology beyond "gently caress fascism"

Sneakster posted:

Are you retarded? Seriously? I just showed you a Wapo article on documented exceptionally high rates of antisemitism. It exists. Victims of oppression can hold awful views too, often born out of irrational reaction to lived material conditions. I didn't say fascist, just, not big on jews. Nation of Islam dude? This isn't exactly a huge loving revelation unless your exposure to diversity starts and ends with Will Smith.

When I campaigned for Obama rednecks called him a muslim, and then said they're just not gonna vote for a black guy. Pretty sure they're racist, for irrational reasons. When I campaigned for Sanders and black dudes drunk in the middle of the afternoon started telling me about how the Jews ran the slave trade, pretty sure those guys were racist against Jewish people, for irrational reasons.

Lightning Knight posted:

I mean, I don't really think the problem was ever that black people "don't like" Bernie, so much as that he was an unknown perceived as either disinterested in or poorly articulated on issues specific to the black community, while Hillary was a known quantity with a reputation with the black community that they, on balance, felt was positive. Most interviews I've seen with black Hillary supporters from the 2016 primary boiled down to "Bernie is ok, I just wanted Hillary more." I don't really think that this is entirely Bernie's fault, insofar as he only had a one-note set of talking points and didn't do any groundwork because he didn't plan to win, but a hypothetical world where Bernie started making inroads with the black community and speaking to them about issues important to them in say, 2013, probably looks very different to our own. What I do know is that black people vote disproportionately in Democratic primaries, especially the presidential primary, so having the support of the black community is important if you intend to run for office as a Democrat in many places.

Office Pig posted:

https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/899301915447709696

Same as it ever was, same as it ever was.

Lightning Knight posted:

Your own source demonstrates that the rate appears to be falling fairly significantly, and the most recent available data is from four years ago. None of this changes the broader point, which is that you haven't demonstrated an actual causal relationship, when there are a number of other better documented reasons for why Bernie didn't do as well with the black community that aren't as sinister and asinine as your proposed one.

What I find absurd is that you're immediately jumping to the most bad faith reason you can find for why black people as a group didn't vote for Bernie, when there are plenty of good faith reasons that are well-understood.


I'm fairly sure that by definition "truce with Nazis" categorically disqualifies somebody from calling themselves "antifa," just saying.

Cerebral Bore posted:

That's one take on it, but if you look at the numbers more closely I'd argue that a stronger factor is the same generational divide that we saw among all other voting blocs. It's specifically older black voters who vote disproportionately in dem primaries, after all.

quote:

I'm incredibly aware of this basic fact, I just like that migf was doing the thing I said