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Schwarzwald posted:She doesn't believe people have the natural capacity to be evil for most of the movie. That's a bit more than just being "pegged at innocent." The story is inextricable from character.
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Aug 25, 2017 06:05
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I think James Cameron kinda lacks the language for what he's trying to get across here, aside from that Strong Female Protagonist kinda just doesn't cut it anymore. Wonder Woman being super naive as someone raised in a literal magical land by immortal magic ladies was a pretty interesting take on it. (weirdly enough that makes me think of Steven Universe)
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Aug 25, 2017 06:06
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Inescapable Duck posted:I think James Cameron kinda lacks the language for what he's trying to get across here, aside from that Strong Female Protagonist kinda just doesn't cut it anymore. And yet still too few of those exist.
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Aug 25, 2017 06:08
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:The story is inextricable from character. Yes, exactly. Given that the story is about Diana losing her innocence in regards to man's capacity to be evil to man, it is necessary for her to be innocent before then.
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Aug 25, 2017 06:08
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:And her insistence on taking the offensive lead at Veld is basically analogous to "macho". She's been trained to be a fighter pretty much her her whole life though. I'd rather have characters like WW and Furiosa than Whedon's emotionally crippled 80 pounds models who beat up everyone in poorly choreographed fight scenes. Sarah Connor and Ripley will most likely always be my favorite female action characters though. They're tough and rough but are still grounded and actual characters who don't come off as jerk-off material. And I'll always have a soft spot for Cynthia Rothrock.
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Aug 25, 2017 06:17
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'Strong but emotionally crippled' has kinda been the overdone thing, yeah. Wonder Woman's characterisation actually has meaning and an arc for her movie, tieing into her previous appearance (where, notably, she plays off the definition of 'strong but emotionally crippled man' and a man whose only real vulnerabilities are emotional or thematic attachments to his lost home) Furiosa I wasn't so sure about, but Fury Road tends towards the minimalist with its characterisation, and the arc is more both men and women having to get over their deep distrust of pretty much everyone else in the world to form a strong enough alliance to fight back against a trio of tyrants and their slave-warriors.
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Aug 25, 2017 06:57
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I agree with everything James Cameron said about WW, and I usually think he's just an arrogant rear end in a top hat. Also, this tweet speaks volumes about Patty Jenkins' insecurity: https://twitter.com/PattyJenks/status/900917648015405062 Just 
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Aug 25, 2017 07:16
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RedSpider posted:I agree with everything James Cameron said about WW, and I usually think he's just an arrogant rear end in a top hat. You judging somoene's public defence of their film against a public criticism as insecurity also speaks volumes.
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Aug 25, 2017 07:19
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Snowman_McK posted:You judging somoene's public defence of their film against a public criticism as insecurity also speaks volumes. Oh boohoo. She's trying to build publicity off of Cameron's name, you twat. It's the worst form of virtue signaling. And Sarah Connor in both Terminator films was a much better female character in every aspect. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 25, 2017 07:28
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RedSpider posted:Oh boohoo. She's trying to build publicity off of Cameron's name, you twat. It's the worst form of virtue signaling. And Sarah Connor in both Terminator films was a much better female character in every aspect. She's trying to build publicity by responding to the public criticism that another public figure made? Virtue Signaling is a stupid term in pretty much all contexts, but I don't think that's even what it means when used by people who think it means something.
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Aug 25, 2017 07:30
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Snowman_McK posted:She's trying to build publicity by responding to the public criticism that another public figure made? Yes. She would have never responded like that to somebody other than a household name like James Cameron for publicity reasons. Sure you know that controversy sells, dummy. Snowman_McK posted:Virtue Signaling is a stupid term in pretty much all contexts, but I don't think that's even what it means when used by people who think it means something. This is already trending on twitter. There's plenty of verified accounts virtue signaling themselves by trashing Cameron (comparing him to a sexist like Trump!) over an honest assessment of an incredibly cliched film. RedSpider fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Aug 25, 2017 |
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Aug 25, 2017 07:32
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RedSpider posted:Yes. She would have never responded like that to somebody other than a household name like James Cameron for publicity reasons. Sure you know that controversy sells, dummy. Someone else's criticism, someone of lesser stature, wouldn't have gained as much publicity as Cameron's in the first place, and thus wouldn't have necessitated a response. Do you think it's just possible that the director of a film might want to actually defend her work against a criticism she felt was unfair? Or does your own lack of sincerity prevent you from seeing that as a possibility? RedSpider posted:This is already trending on twitter. There's plenty of verified accounts virtue signaling themselves by trashing Cameron over an honest assessment of an incredibly cliched film. Or people just like the film and disagree with Cameron. Just out of curiosity, what do you think Cameron's motives were for publicly criticising the film? Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Aug 25, 2017 |
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Aug 25, 2017 07:34
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Snowman_McK posted:Do you think it's just possible that the director of a film might want to actually defend her work against a criticism she felt was unfair? Or does your own lack of sincerity prevent you from seeing that as a possibility? No, I think she's trying to improve her stature in Hollywood (virtue signaling) by publicly going after somebody like Cameron who's a better filmmaker with claims of sexism. She even shamelessly promoted her other film Monster Ball in her statement FFS.
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Aug 25, 2017 07:38
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RedSpider posted:No, I think she's trying to improve her stature in Hollywood (virtue signaling) by publicly going after somebody like Cameron who's a better filmmaker with claims of sexism. She even mentioned her other film Monster Ball FFS. She didn't actually claim he was sexist. She said he had an understanding of female characters limited by his gender. Briefly examining his films, she may be onto something, or may not be, that could be an actual discussion if you were capable of thinking anyone was sincere. She also didn't 'go after him' she responded after he publicly criticised her film. What do you think his motives were? I doubt you think it was something so base as publicity. Because, if you want to speak disparagingly of James Cameron, just for arguments sake, he's the one who hasn't released a movie in 8 years and, just to speculate, might be missing relevance a little.
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Aug 25, 2017 07:42
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Snowman_McK posted:She didn't actually claim he was sexist. She said he had an understanding of female characters limited by his gender. Briefly examining his films, she may be onto something, or may not be, that could be an actual discussion if you were capable of thinking anyone was sincere. Since when can't men criticize female characters, you dumb twat? Especially someone like Cameron, who's written plenty of stronger female characters than WW? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 25, 2017 07:45
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RedSpider posted:Since when can't men criticize female characters, you dumb twat? Especially someone like Cameron, who's written plenty of stronger female characters than WW? She didn't say he couldn't, she said his view was limited. Also, writing good female characters (albeit nearly 30 years ago) doesn't insulate you from criticism or suggest that your view on the subject is beyond reproach. You still haven't told me what you think his motivation was, despite being very confident about hers.
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Aug 25, 2017 07:47
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Snowman_McK posted:You still haven't told me what you think his motivation was, despite being very confident about hers. Cameron correctly stated how WW sexually objectifies women. It's a regressive film. Maybe he was merely suggesting that future female 'superheroes' should be more than surface-level eye candy in the future? (like Sarah Connor)
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Aug 25, 2017 07:55
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RedSpider posted:Cameron correctly stated how WW sexually objectifies women. It's a regressive film. Maybe he was merely suggesting that future female 'superheroes' should be more than surface-level eye candy in the future? (like Sarah Connor) That's what he said, not why he said it. He also didn't state how it objectified women, merely that it did. He also plugged his own characters and work, and a fair bit more forcefully than Jenkins plugged her film Monster. If anyone in the situation comes across as insecure, it's Cameron. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Aug 25, 2017 |
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Aug 25, 2017 08:01
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I personally get all my feminist theory from old, wealthy white men.
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Aug 25, 2017 08:10
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Steve2911 posted:I personally get all my feminist theory from old, wealthy white men. Then I feel sorry for you.
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Aug 25, 2017 08:15
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Steve2911 posted:I personally get all my feminist theory from old, wealthy white men. Only if they wrote good female characters thirty years ago (which sort of understates how much Linda Hamilton owns the gently caress out of that role) and then disappeared under the ocean.
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Aug 25, 2017 08:15
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RedSpider posted:I agree with everything James Cameron said about WW, and I usually think he's just an arrogant rear end in a top hat. I'm a huge Cameron fanboy, but his comment about Wonder Woman being a step backward was dumb. This tweet sums up why really well. https://twitter.com/dceufacts/status/900951552696893440
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Aug 25, 2017 08:21
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Inescapable Duck posted:I think James Cameron kinda lacks the language for what he's trying to get across here, aside from that Strong Female Protagonist kinda just doesn't cut it anymore. I got the opposite impression out of that statement, if the character isn't overcoming personal damage and taking on a hardened edge then she isn't "legit". Raving about having to "demonstrate the same thing over again" doesn't sound like a concern over people needing to move on.
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Aug 25, 2017 08:25
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teagone posted:I'm a huge Cameron fanboy, but his comment about Wonder Woman being a step backward was dumb. This tweet sums up why really well. There's something deeply hilarious about this backpatting. Backpattying. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 08:52 on Aug 25, 2017 |
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Aug 25, 2017 08:36
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You know, on second thought, I think they're both barking up the wrong tree. Wonder Woman's telling a story about a different kind of woman than one who has to overcome adversity and physically superior enemies to protect what she cares about, but about a woman who already has power, and she has to learn to understand her power, the ramifications it has on the people and world around her, and how to use that power responsibly. Which is obviously a pretty familiar narrative for superhero stories, but it's not a story that a woman usually gets to be the protagonist of. (Maybe Frozen? Though that one's still all about her overcoming emotional issues and rejection, which is a different kind of story altogether. Still, women liked it)
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Aug 25, 2017 08:42
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They're not though, one's being inclusive and one's being regressive. Jenkins' perspective is that there's more than one type of strong woman, overcoming loss and pain to find personal strength is fine but women characters should be able to be more than that and Cameron nigh-literally went "NUH-UH THAT'S DUMB".
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Aug 25, 2017 09:05
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McSpanky posted:They're not though, one's being inclusive and one's being regressive. Jenkins' perspective is that there's more than one type of strong woman, overcoming loss and pain to find personal strength is fine but women characters should be able to be more than that and Cameron nigh-literally went "NUH-UH THAT'S DUMB". While congratulating himself on Sarah Connor. Which is sort of problematic in its own right, considering how much Hamilton herself brought to that role.
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Aug 25, 2017 11:06
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Maybe he's right, the only thing I really think about Wonderwoman is that she was really hot. Ripley and Sarah Connor, I remember because they were absolute badasses.
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Aug 25, 2017 13:37
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And actually on reading that, he seems to have forgotten that Wonder Woman is a superhero. It's like complaining Batman and Superman can't be good characters because they're too handsome and powerful. It's okay to have larger-than-life, not-quite-human characters doing cool things where the thematic focus is about their great power and its use rather than shooting things while covered in mud and/or grime.
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Aug 25, 2017 14:12
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teagone posted:I'm a huge Cameron fanboy, but his comment about Wonder Woman being a step backward was dumb. This tweet sums up why really well. Wait, what? How is the a step forward? Red Spider, shut up. I came in this thread ready to agree with Cameron but your MRA bullshit is making me want to defend a mediocre movie.
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Aug 25, 2017 14:57
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RedSpider posted:Since when can't men criticize female characters, you dumb twat? Especially someone like Cameron, who's written plenty of stronger female characters than WW? 
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Aug 25, 2017 15:20
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RedSpider posted:Oh boohoo. She's trying to build publicity off of Cameron's name, you twat. It's the worst form of virtue signaling. And Sarah Connor in both Terminator films was a much better female character in every aspect.
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Aug 25, 2017 15:45
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loving lollll "Patty Jenkins is just responding to one of the most influential directors in modern times criticism of her film for publicity reasons. James Cameron is randomly commenting on a three month old movie because ??????? Also I don't quite understand cause and effect, will one of you dumb twats explain it to me?"
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Aug 25, 2017 16:22
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OH apparently he was asked in an interview about it, that makes sense. Still weird to blame Jenkins for responding to a high profile criticism.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:25
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LMAO this bullshit happens literally any time there's a female character that's powerful from the word go instead of having to be "damaged" in some way like a Whedon character or "I wrote a man but cast a woman" like a Cameron character. James Cameron is responsible for Aliens, Terminator, and Terminator 2, which are three of my favorite movies ever, but like, LOL yes Cameron you had so much to do with those characters vs. Sigourney Weaver wanting the role to involve her gradual arc from hesitant to taking charge and blasting poo poo instead of being all gun-toting badass from start to finish or Linda Hamilton completely totally owning her role in Terminator 2 in the most badass way possible. Please. Cameron is like that about everything though, I saw him speak a few times at GameStop manager conferences of all things because Avatar had gotten delayed, and all of its associated video game tie-ins along with it. So we got like two years in a row of this dude blabbering on about how he basically invented the concept of special effects and how revolutionary everything he's ever thought about ever is. The guy's ego has always been huge and he's always given himself way too much credit for creating and executing ONE SINGLE CORRECT way of doing a thing. Ellen Ripley and Aliens and Sarah Connor in Terminator 2 are incredible characters (Hell Weaver won an Oscar for Aliens, which means Aliens is so good it's half as good as Suicide Squad, which one two  ) that both gave us something relatively unseen in a massive budget Hollywood summer action movie. But Cameron and plenty of dudes like him in the arts in general have this super linear mindset of "whelp this character type was perfected on this day and year in this film so any divergence from that is wrong." That super conservative mindset makes it impossible for him to even imagine any other type of female character that could exist and be good.When you listen to Cameron's commentaries and see interviews with him, he's very much of the mindset that women are typically vulnerable, weak, but have hidden reserves of power that can only be summoned up when Aliens obliterate a squad of marines or a robot travels through time. There's one where he basically says this outright I want to say on one of Alien Anthology interviews. The idea that woman could just, like, BE powerful and a stereotypically "a woman" at the same time is genuinely alien to him.
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Aug 25, 2017 17:23
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Snowman_McK posted:While congratulating himself on Sarah Connor. Which is sort of problematic in its own right, considering how much Hamilton herself brought to that role. Yeah I'm sure Cameron's writing and direction of the character wasn't a significant factor here
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Aug 25, 2017 17:25
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Neo Rasa posted:Weaver won an Oscar for Aliens, which means Aliens is so good it's half as good as Suicide Squad, which one two She did not, she was just nominated. However, Aliens did win two Academy Awards, for Sound Effects Editing and Visual Effects.
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Aug 25, 2017 17:37
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Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'atite is a hunter, teacher, and warrior. She stopped her war.
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Aug 25, 2017 17:42
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I was just about to bring up that Dances With Avatar Lady wasn't really much of a point given the utter clicheness of it all And there was basically Vasquez who joins the good guys and dies That movie couldn't kill the only interesting characters fast enough
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Aug 25, 2017 17:45
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Tenzarin posted:Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'atite is a hunter, teacher, and warrior. LOL the interview where they he's just in full marketing mode basically like "Yeah we did a lot of work to make sure she was an alien but still very fuckable." Sir Kodiak posted:She did not, she was just nominated. However, Aliens did win two Academy Awards, for Sound Effects Editing and Visual Effects. My headcannon failed me again. Ha looking further it seems she actually won a lot of stuff from basically everything but the Academy.
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Aug 25, 2017 17:48
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