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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
| Total: | 229 votes | ||
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Yeah I think that's part of that two. When you sell yourself as "the lesser of two evils" to the point where that's the prevailing message of your party, people aren't really going to care as much when the lesser evil gets unfairly cheated. Some of the Democrats seem to be acting like it's a matter of honor that we fix this and there's no way enough voters feel that way for it to be a viable message other than "...oh yeah and he's in bed with the Russians."
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Aug 25, 2017 15:57
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Left: Universal healthcare is a good thing. Alt-left: Richard Spencer believes in universal healthcare coughforwhitescough so he is better than Dems. Left: Bernie Alt-left: TYT This isn't hard
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Aug 25, 2017 16:09
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D.N. Nation posted:Left: Universal healthcare is a good thing. I'm going to need a link to TYT making that argument.  (I'm not a fan of them at all, but that doesn't seem likely)
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Aug 25, 2017 16:13
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D.N. Nation posted:Left: Universal healthcare is a good thing. That's not how anybody uses it. Were the people in Cville who got called alt-left secretly there to get a signed picture of Spencer?
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Aug 25, 2017 16:15
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In my eyes Russia is a big problem but they are only playing on the already existing problems in our politics. Yeah they might or might not have tipped the election to Trump, but if the party ran someone that wasn't as weak as Hillary all the twitterbots in the world wouldn't have stopped the landslide.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:16
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Fulchrum posted:And we are right back to "Dad said he'd take us to Disneyland, but he won't cause he's a mean meany poophead! Losing his job is just an excuse!" LOL. So apparently wanting to end wars, get jobs, not die of preventable illness, and prosecute criminal banks for destroying the world economy is the equivalent of a kid wanting to go to Disneyland. Take your meds Fulchrum. Your family worries about you.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:19
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What's the problem with TYT?
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Aug 25, 2017 16:22
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steinrokkan posted:That's not how anybody uses it. Were the people in Cville who got called alt-left secretly there to get a signed picture of Spencer? Yeah. "Alt-left" was used to vilify anyone to the left of what the DNC considered an acceptable Democrat specifically people that complained about decisions like promoting Harris or scuttling Ellison. Saying that it was only reserved for people so broke brained that they wanted Nazis to institute socialist health care is serious revisionist history.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:23
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I should note that it's the way I've always used it, but if I gotta come up with a new word, so be it. Michaeltraceyists.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:24
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There were a lot of cases where Obama's policy plans were thwarted, but choices just a few days into his presidency, regarding staffing the Treasury department with Goldman Sachs financial executives, set the tone for what he aspired toward.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:27
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Lightning Knight posted:This misses the entire reason why Putin is a problem, which is that he is intentionally funding and assisting far right nationalist movements and parties across the West and having a degree of success. And, you know, invading his neighbors and annexing their poo poo, but I guess whatever to that right? guess what the kochs have been doing for a good long time? at least wrt america?
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Aug 25, 2017 16:34
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Yeah, I really should have voted Solidarity of PSL in that election. I wold at least feel like I have a clean conscious. ' Also is someone actually repeating the alt left smear?
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Aug 25, 2017 16:35
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Majorian posted:I'm going to need a link to TYT making that argument. Even a clip exists who gives a poo poo? People sometimes say stupid poo poo without thinking through. If you look at their larger body of work their position on racism/facism is pretty clear. They're certainly better allies than most mainstream news outlets. Kraftwerk posted:What's the problem with TYT? They're willing to criticize Democrats.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:37
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Condiv posted:guess what the kochs have been doing for a good long time? at least wrt america? I didn't realize my post was an implicit endorsement of American funding of far right parties. Also the problem with Putin isn't just the funding, it's the willingness to use intelligence services to do hacking jobs and whatnot, when we live in a country with woefully outdated computer technology. But, like I said, I don't think Democratic strategists should focus on the Russia thing, it's a dead end issue without meaningful proof and even then most people just won't care. All that I'm arguing is that it not being a useful angle for political attack doesn't mean it doesn't matter.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:38
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It doesn't help that the main proponents of the Russia narrative are neocons and warhawks that never met a war they didn't like, either advocated or actively participated in overthrowing democratically elected governments and propping up right wing authoritarian strong men, and are extremely horny for a new cold war that totally couldn't easily spin into a global conflict. It also doesn't help that none of this actually addresses the problems in people's everyday lives and the answer the Democrats give to the problem that 8 in 10 Americans are one paycheck away from disaster or have already tipped over into the abyss is they should learn to code. They have no credibility that they are operating in everyday people's best interest. Iron Twinkie fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Aug 25, 2017 |
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Aug 25, 2017 16:39
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D.N. Nation posted:Left: Universal healthcare is a good thing. :eyeroll: Oh yeah, remember that famous video of alt-leftist HUGGING Richard spencer on Twitter? It went viral and everything! And Spencer groupies love the alt-left so much they drive cars through themin their eagerness to offer friendship rides. There is a difference, you know, between warning that if you don't offer something tangible to the desperate rung of society someone else will come along and offer it along with a nice serving of hate, and applauding nazi populism as a good thing.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:39
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Iron Twinkie posted:It also doesn't help that the main proponents of the Russia narrative are neocons and warhawks that never met a war they didn't like, either advocated or actively participated in overthrowing democratically elected governments and propping up a right wing authoritarian strong men, and are extremely horny for a new cold war that totally couldn't easily spin into a global conflict. I don't disagree with this. I just don't think "Putin bad, but we shouldn't go to war with him" is too complicated of a position to hold. I just disagree with conflating "we shouldn't overreact to Putin" with "Putin isn't actually a problem/isn't actually bad."
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Aug 25, 2017 16:42
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Lightning Knight posted:I didn't realize my post was an implicit endorsement of American funding of far right parties. it's not, but putin's not a special problem cause he's funding the far right. he's a problem cause it is perfectly fine and dandy for our representatives on any and all levels to be bought by private interests quote:Also the problem with Putin isn't just the funding, it's the willingness to use intelligence services to do hacking jobs and whatnot, when we live in a country with woefully outdated computer technology. But, like I said, I don't think Democratic strategists should focus on the Russia thing, it's a dead end issue without meaningful proof and even then most people just won't care. the hacking was the least troublesome thing putin did, cause all he ended up doing was airing the dem's dirty laundry. poo poo that shouldn't have been there in the first place. the twitter disinformation campaigns were more troubling, and they are fully legal and well within the reach of private entities too (see virgin train's ceo's disinformation tactics against corbyn) yes, all these things matter, but they don't particularly matter cause russia did them. they matter cause they are a huge blindspot in our current political systems and there's almost no will to correct these issues cause our parties are both beholden to those who would use these techniques. Condiv fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Aug 25, 2017 |
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Aug 25, 2017 16:47
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All you need to know to know how stupid the whole alt-left thing is is to look at the origins of the terms. "Alt-right" is a label that was created by people who embraced it as a way of making neo-nazism seem more appealing. It wasn't imposed from the outside but adopted from within by educated white supremacists who wanted to differentiate themselves from garden variety nazis who they saw as unsofisticated. "Alt-left" wasn't adopted by anybody, but instead used by people (be it Hannity or Neera Tanden) to try to draw an equivalence between anyone to the left of the DNC and outright nazis to discredit them. So alt-right is an adopted identity, alt-left is a smear. Anyone who uses the term alt-left in an unironic way should immediately be dismissed as dishonest or as a moron.
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Aug 25, 2017 17:01
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The notion that nobody cares about the Russia investigation is objectively wrong. Like 80% of democrats, 40% of independents and 20% of Republicans say they're very or somewhat concerned that trump conspired with the Russians. Whether or not there's ironclad evidence that trump conspired, pushing the Russia narrative has been an effective tactic in driving a wedge between Trump and the senate GOP, in sinking Trump's approval rating, and hobbling his administration. It's already paid dividends, and that's not changing. In any case, nobody's suggesting that Russia should be the only thing democrats talk about or that it should be the core argument democrats push in the next election. Even if you think it's all bullshit, appreciate the tactical advantages it offers and don't give trump ammunition by pushing the "this is only a distraction from democrat failures" argument he coopted from you nine months ago.
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Aug 25, 2017 17:25
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People saying "I can't believe we're still re-litigating the primary in 2017" are kinda ignoring that none of the issues that split the primary have been resolved, so we're going to do this for however many years it takes until one side gives up (nope), loses control of the party (maybe), or is put in the camps by resurgent fascists (definitely).
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Aug 25, 2017 17:27
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perhaps the democrats could propose doing something for us to support like single payer just spitballing here
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Aug 25, 2017 17:28
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JeffersonClay posted:The notion that nobody cares about the Russia investigation is objectively wrong. Like 80% of democrats, 40% of independents and 20% of Republicans say they're very or somewhat concerned that trump conspired with the Russians. The question isn't whether or not anyone cares; it's whether or not they care enough for it to motivate people who didn't already vote against Trump in 2016, to do so in 2020.
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Aug 25, 2017 17:29
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Ze Pollack posted:perhaps the democrats could propose doing something for us to support "Alright, but only if it's a lie. We pretend to be for Single Payer, you scum vote for us, then we shrug and say it was impossible if we win, and you guys get to have fun watching the Daily Show gasp at how unreasonable the GOP is for the next 4 years." That's centrist nirvana right there.
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Aug 25, 2017 17:38
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Majorian posted:The question isn't whether or not anyone cares; it's whether or not they care enough for it to motivate people who didn't already vote against Trump in 2016, to do so in 2020. Or if it causes 2016 trump supporters to stay home, or if it helps fracture the GOP forcing downballot republicans to make an impossible choice that alienates a big chunk of their base. And again, focusing on Trump/Russia has already benefitted democrats. It's been very effective in hobbling Trump's administration thus far.
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Aug 25, 2017 17:41
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JeffersonClay posted:And again, focusing on Trump/Russia has already benefitted democrats. It's been very effective in hobbling Trump's administration thus far. [citation needed]
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Aug 25, 2017 17:48
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The Russia story plays well with affluent liberals who have a bit of natsec bent to them. Those are the kind of people like Jefferson Clay, and Fulchrum, and others you see in the bad dem thread. It plays well with them because they're steeped neck deep in nationalism which has made them think of Russians as a savage other, who's influence in American politics is incomparably worse than, say, the influence of the American financial sector, or the Oil lobby. It's worth noting that these liberals are already going to vote for the Dems no matter what (unless a real leftist takes the helm, but that seems unlikely). However for your average Sanders-voting leftist, Russian money and influence is just one of many corrosive influences on the democratic process. When the Democrats bring up Russia, most of them will shrug because there's nothing special about Russia's influence. This kind of meddling has happening for years and it's only gotten worse recently due to developments in recent years like Citizens United. They don't pick up on the nationalist dog whistles like the bad dems do. Unfortunately for the Democratic party, leftists are the voters they need to win over if they're going to make any gains in 2018 (which they will enter with a disadvantage).
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Aug 25, 2017 17:55
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readingatwork posted:They're willing to criticize Democrats. Cenk's a genocide denier, Jordan peddled the Seth Rich conspiracy, Tracey was a goddamn Jim Webb/Rand Paul fanboy, Nomiki is objectively stupid, but hey, solid gang there, I will join my Republican financier betters and throw them some money
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Aug 25, 2017 17:57
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Well, also it's not really a relitigation of the primary. It is the outright resistance of the establishment democrats of moving left in any way. If the democratic party stood behind even modestly more leftwing policies and candidates, no one would be talking about Bernie. Just look at the way that Nina Turner has been treated and mocked in the most dishonest manner in the whole doughnut thing.
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Aug 25, 2017 17:57
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Ze Pollack posted:perhaps the democrats could propose doing something for us to support Agreed, and if they don't, perhaps your local DemSoc/Greens/whoever can 1) Actually run someone who 2) Isn't a buffoon
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Aug 25, 2017 17:58
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D.N. Nation posted:Cenk's a genocide denier, Jordan peddled the Seth Rich conspiracy, Tracey was a goddamn Jim Webb/Rand Paul fanboy, Nomiki is objectively stupid, but hey, solid gang there, I will join my Republican financier betters and throw them some money Yeah it seems like you're just a centrist rear end in a top hat who enables Trump.
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Aug 25, 2017 18:11
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I can never stomach more than 10 seconds of their annoying videos to see whether or not TYT is bad.
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Aug 25, 2017 18:15
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah it seems like you're just a centrist rear end in a top hat who enables Trump. Happily voted Bernie. (Unlike most of Georgia.) Cranks need to be called out. I don't subscribe to the "don't let the kids see us fighting" poo poo some other leftists do.
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Aug 25, 2017 18:17
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shrike82 posted:The difference between Kilroy and JC can be summed up as the former is a white Floridian who voted for Trump and the latter voted for Abuela  should have called me a black floridian for the hat trick
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Aug 25, 2017 18:18
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Inescapable Duck posted:[citation needed] It caused him to fire Comey, which tanked his big infrastructure push, for one example. Comey said trump literally told him the Russia investigation was a cloud over his administration that was interfering with his ability to implement his agenda. Chomskyan posted:However for your average Sanders-voting leftist, Russian money and influence is just one of many corrosive influences on the democratic process. When the Democrats bring up Russia, most of them will shrug because there's nothing special about Russia's influence. This kind of meddling has happening for years and it's only gotten worse recently due to developments in recent years like Citizens United. They don't pick up on the nationalist dog whistles like the bad dems do. Unfortunately for the Democratic party, leftists are the voters they need to win over if they're going to make any gains in 2018 (which they will enter with a disadvantage). 80% of democrats are concerned with trump/Russia. If sanders leftists are collectively shrugging at the issue, that means they're a tiny part of the base. And regardless, you're ignoring the effects Russia has on Trump voters. We don't need very many of them to stay home, or turn on the republicans who refuse to give Trump cover on the issue, to win here.
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Aug 25, 2017 18:21
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JeffersonClay posted:80% of democrats are concerned with trump/Russia. If sanders leftists are collectively shrugging at the issue, that means they're a tiny part of the base. And regardless, you're ignoring the effects Russia has on Trump voters. We don't need very many of them to stay home, or turn on the republicans who refuse to give Trump cover on the issue, to win here. Sure, I'm part of that 80%. If there's legit proof Trump colluded with Russia (as there seems to be), it's a big loving deal. That said, if the entire Dem strategy for 2020 is  "Well, we didn't collude with Russia! Have you seen the other guys?" then they're going to lose.You can't just run as opposition to the other party, you need to propose policies (and actually try to implement them) that will get people to vote for you. Popular things like a higher minimum wage and single payer, for example.
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Aug 25, 2017 18:23
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D.N. Nation posted:Cenk's a genocide denier, Jordan peddled the Seth Rich conspiracy, Tracey was a goddamn Jim Webb/Rand Paul fanboy, Nomiki is objectively stupid, but hey, solid gang there, I will join my Republican financier betters and throw them some money I was expecting you to bring up Jimmy Dore to be honest. Cenk is a reformed Republican who would be pretty centrist is a sane society and political climate. The rest are minor players in the network who are given a lot of leeway to pursue the things they believe in even if the rest of the cast don't agree with them. Like how the main TYT crew were debunking the Seth Rich stuff that Jordan fell for. The crew have their blind spots and make mistakes on specific stories but their overall views are fairly mild. If you were like "these guys are not great journalists and fall for some dumb poo poo and have some dumb opinions" I'd be like sure okay that's definitely a supportable opinion. But I don't think they exist as a good example of some significant category of problematic leftists. They even go for the no violence is good even against nazis bullshit centrists love.
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Aug 25, 2017 18:33
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Futuresight posted:They even go for the no violence is good even against nazis bullshit centrists love. I'm not a centrist; I'm all for violence against Nazis, so that's another strike.
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Aug 25, 2017 18:42
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Chomskyan posted:The Russia story plays well with affluent liberals who have a bit of natsec bent to them. Those are the kind of people like Jefferson Clay, and Fulchrum, and others you see in the bad dem thread. It plays well with them because they're steeped neck deep in nationalism which has made them think of Russians as a savage other, who's influence in American politics is incomparably worse than, say, the influence of the American financial sector, or the Oil lobby. It's worth noting that these liberals are already going to vote for the Dems no matter what (unless a real leftist takes the helm, but that seems unlikely). This also feeds back into their narrative that Trump is this unique compromised candidate who is a never-seen-before phenomenon and not the absolutely predictable end-game of our current neoliberal order. Your typical "pragmatic centrists" *needs* the Republican Party to be Principled Opposition Who Plays By The Rules and "he's a puppet of a foreign government, unlike most of our comrades across the aisle" works nicely and is a great out for them. It totally ignores the fact that Mike Pence or Paul Ryan would be trying to do all this poo poo, just without being rude.
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Aug 25, 2017 18:53
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The problem with a word like "concerned" is that it doesn't really expose how relatively concerned people are with one issue as opposed to another. I'm "concerned" about Russia. I'm also concerned with the corrosive influence of money on politics and media in general. A lot of people might be "concerned" but also think that the Russia story is not as big of a deal as the media/Democrats are making it out to be. There is some polling evidence to support this Most Americans are much more concerned about issues like the economy, healthcare, which effect them personally (the issues which Democrats are avoiding incidentally).  Also note that the Democrats have extremely low favorability ratings, comparable to the GOP and Trump:    Hmm, I wonder why?
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Aug 25, 2017 18:59
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