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Tenzarin posted:And little girls are going to be able to relate to a god created by Zeus raised on an island of Amazons? All kids, especially little girls, can relate to Diana's relationship with her aunt and mother, and the sisterly-bond that all Amazons share. They all can aspire to be like Diana with her inherent kindness in the film, of how accepting she is of every individual, no matter who they are, seeing them as equal citizens of the world. One would hope a little girl or boy would actually have someone like that in their life, be it their father, mother, brother, or whoever, that they can look up to. To bolster this: https://twitter.com/PattyJenks/status/874034832430424065 The Elektra and Catwoman movies likely didn't resonate with kids as well as Wonder Woman's character did. Maybe. I don't believe they did, unless you can convince me otherwise. teagone fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Aug 27, 2017 |
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Aug 27, 2017 02:53
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Tenzarin posted:And little girls are going to be able to relate to a god created by Zeus raised on an island of Amazons? The fact that they're able to do so and yet not relate to a mousey girl-next-door graphic artist who gets cat powers probably says a lot about the quality and delivery of both films. Actually, let me rephrase that bit: it's really not surprising that little girls are able to relate more to an Amazon princess who wants to go punch bad dudes and save the world than some average office-worker who frets over deadlines and loud neighbors. Kinda goes to show you where little girls' priorities are at, no?
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Aug 27, 2017 02:59
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Yea, it sounds about right on the level with little kids looking up to Iron Man and Captain America.
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Aug 27, 2017 03:10
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BrianWilly posted:Actually, let me rephrase that bit: it's really not surprising that little girls are able to relate more to an Amazon princess who wants to go punch bad dudes and save the world than some average office-worker who frets over deadlines and loud neighbors. Kinda goes to show you where little girls' priorities are at, no? You should be aware of how you dodge specificity. Wonder Woman is, again, about a corporate spokesperson/mythologist who specifically 'saves the world' by altering our perception of it. The basic message of the film is expressed when Steve badly botches his heroic last words, yelling incoherently, and then Diana later uses 'the power of love' to rewrite history and fill in the blanks of the speech. "Only love can truly save the world." That's a very specific message, referring to how Ares is God Of Truth. At the end of the film, Diana absorbs him and supplants him. So the ambiguity rests in the word 'can' - referring to the potential of love to redeem the poo poo world. And that only works if we are talking about a Christian agape. How many of those little girls that you refer to are (or will become) radical Christians?
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Aug 27, 2017 03:29
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I recall something... I think it was, ironically enough, Whedon saying around Avengers that superhero movies jumped a little early into postmodernism and deconstruction before they'd barely established themselves as a genre, you've got to actually establish a status quo before you start breaking it down. Of course, at this point, it's pretty well established. I don't think it's fair to get too harsh on the film for not being transgressive enough when it's about a woman in a role that women have absolutely struggled to actually get representation in, as a power fantasy, even if there's problematic aspects to it, it's trying to make up for decades of being behind what men have taken for granted. All the more impressive because Wonder Woman in particular has struggled with having a defining story and characterisation compared to what other major superheroes have. Unlike the failed, derided and forgotten Ghostbusters: Answer The Call, the Wonder Woman movie has succeeded in making a great impression upon its audience, giving definition and meaning to a character who struggled to have a proper identity until now. I think it deserves kudos for that while recognising its problems. Of course, when Wonder Woman 2 comes out, we can all start bitching about it not pushing the envelope anywhere near hard enough. Unless they go really nuts with it. Which would be rad.
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Aug 27, 2017 03:44
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I don't see how it pushed any envelope. Female super hero movie? That's some low goal.
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Aug 27, 2017 03:46
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And yet they hadn't managed to score it yet.
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Aug 27, 2017 03:59
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Inescapable Duck posted:And yet they hadn't managed to score it yet. There are tons of female superhero/costumed vigilante movies. Ghost In The Shell was released this year, for example, and has far more progressive themes than Wonder Woman. Your 'first female superhero movie' is more specifically 'first female superhero movie introduced as an official part of the MCU or DCU franchises' - and even that narrow definition ignores how Suicide Squad was basically the Harley Quinn movie.
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Aug 27, 2017 04:36
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I mean one that women actually liked.
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Aug 27, 2017 05:30
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Tenzarin posted:And little girls are going to be able to relate to a god created by Zeus raised on an island of Amazons? Oh poo poo, I just realized I didn't actually relate to Superman as a kid because I wasn't an alien survivor of a doomed world raised by Kansas farmers. Thanks for setting me straight.
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Aug 27, 2017 06:23
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McSpanky posted:Oh poo poo, I just realized I didn't actually relate to Superman as a kid because I wasn't an alien survivor of a doomed world raised by Kansas farmers. Thanks for setting me straight. So Wonder Woman is good because shes a female action lead? But not the first. What about the new Star Wars character Rey? That came out almost a year before. Or is it only because she's a female action super hero lead of a movie that didn't flop?
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Aug 27, 2017 06:38
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I know this is CineD and being wilfully obtuse is an art form here, but it should be obvious that 'superhero' is its own genre, and an increasingly significant one to the collective mythos of pop culture. And come to think of it, Diana is one of the first action movie protagonists full stop who comes from a loving family with role models she looks up to.
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Aug 27, 2017 06:57
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Inescapable Duck posted:I know this is CineD and being wilfully obtuse is an art form here, but it should be obvious that 'superhero' is its own genre, and an increasingly significant one to the collective mythos of pop culture. I don't see anything significant that separates WW from GitS or, particularly, Lucy apart from licensing. By almost any standard it's the same "genre" as like, fucken Mulan. And no lots of action heroes come from happy families, imperiling a person's happy family is the most cliched of cliche motivations
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Aug 27, 2017 07:07
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Inescapable Duck posted:I mean one that women actually liked. Which women are you talking about? Did all women dislike every female character before 2017? Again, we have no specificity.
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Aug 27, 2017 07:34
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Nobody saw GitS therefore no one liked it.
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Aug 27, 2017 07:36
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teagone posted:All kids, especially little girls, can relate to Diana's relationship with her aunt and mother, and the sisterly-bond that all Amazons share. They all can aspire to be like Diana with her inherent kindness in the film, of how accepting she is of every individual, no matter who they are, seeing them as equal citizens of the world. One would hope a little girl or boy would actually have someone like that in their life, be it their father, mother, brother, or whoever, that they can look up to. Even assuming this isn't shitthatdidn'thappen.txt, none of it is progressive. You're basically advocating for the character of Wonder Woman to serve as a cheap replacement for Jesus Christ. Teaching about Jesus would be way more beneficial for children.
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Aug 27, 2017 08:36
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Super Fan posted:Nobody saw GitS therefore no one liked it. It seems like there's always a random new reason to disqualify another film. Katniss Everdeen (aka The Mockingjay), Lucy, Harley Quinn, Bella Swan, Mira Killian (aka Major), Rey, Selene, Alice, Gloria/"The Monster".... these are all very recent examples of female superheroes in film. There is no reason to discount all of these. To be frank, people ITT are clearly talking about themselves. Diana is not the first female superhero movie that women have ever cared about. It is the first female superhero movie that you have ever cared about - because you ignored, dismissed, or forgot about countless other movies.
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Aug 27, 2017 08:53
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Well yes but if you're discussing women in film GitS is irrelevant to the discussion becasuse it was panned and forgotten. So few people care about it.
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Aug 27, 2017 09:06
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How many good, or at least mediocre, super hero movies with a solo female lead had been made before this one? There is nothing redeeming about Supergirl, Barb Wire, Aeon Flux or Catwoman. Electra looks like a direct to video movie. I have a soft spot for Tank Girl and Lucy but I wouldn't call them super hero movies. I haven't watched GitS but the original is a SF action-thriller, not something I'd put in the same genre as BvS or the Avengers. But sure, it's based on a comic book, so I don't mind calling it a comic book movie. Edit: Calling Katniss a super hero is silly. Is Harry Potter a super hero now? Is Enemy at the Gates a super hero film? Renoistic fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Aug 27, 2017 |
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Aug 27, 2017 09:12
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Tenzarin posted:So Wonder Woman is good because shes a female action lead? But not the first. What about the new Star Wars character Rey? That came out almost a year before. Or is it only because she's a female action super hero lead of a movie that didn't flop? Also, let's be super clear here that saying Wonder Woman "didn't flop" is a big understatement. It's the biggest movie of this summer. It domestically outperformed every single DC film before it and plenty of Marvel films and the contests aren't close. It did better than Frozen for pete's sake. The only other film that will probably do better than it this year is the next Star Wars. Speaking of which: Rey is a wonderful character, and I can tell that because I know CineD just so coincidentally hates her as well. The new Star Wars franchises are doing great things for female and other underrepresented demographic leads in the industry. But I wouldn't quite equate Rey's position in her film with Diana's, wherein the movie is literally only about her and her journey and absolutely every single other person on the screen is just there to support her development. There's a reason that it's not called a Rey solo film in the same way that we call this a Wonder Woman solo film. That doesn't mean that TFA isn't also an important achievement, but it occupies a different piece of the strata.
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Aug 27, 2017 09:20
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Again, you're actually not referencing any statement or moral in the movies themselves, just marketing and the most basic plot summaries imaginable ("this movie is about a woman"). Wonder Woman's movie sold well, and this proves that she is a strong and powerful icon (this is basically idolatry). Rey from Star Wars is a similar case: what people mean by calling her a strong female character is that she's literally strong and skilled, and can thus force her way through situations. The inexplicable loyalty Laureline has for the unworthy doofus lead of Valerian is stronger characterization than either of those. Anna from Frantz is a much stronger female lead in a movie about WW1. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Aug 27, 2017 |
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Aug 27, 2017 09:37
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quote:(this is basically idolatry) WW is basically a goddess.
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Aug 27, 2017 10:04
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MariusLecter posted:WW is basically a goddess. She's actually a superhero with Greek mythological trappings who first appeared in 1941. It's a tendency of fandom however to de facto turn these characters into gods and their stories into scripture, because fandom is a project to replace religion with pop culture. This is what teagone and BrianWilly are arguing for: Wonder Woman as a replacement for Jesus.
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Aug 27, 2017 10:50
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I don't remember - is WW made from clay or a demi-goddess in the movie?
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Aug 27, 2017 13:21
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It seems like there's always a random new reason to disqualify another film. Who's Gloria?
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Aug 27, 2017 13:24
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BrianWilly posted:One could easily argue that the reason this female action superhero movie didn't flop was through the engagement of its hero or the appeal of her storyline, because it found a way to endear itself to men, women, and children in a way that those flops didn't. You're equating feminism with good marketing. Renoistic posted:I don't remember - is WW made from clay or a demi-goddess in the movie? She was told she was molded from clay, but that was a lie her mother told her to hide the fact that her father is missing. For what it's worth, in the original comic it's heavily implied that she was the product of Hercules rape of Hippolyta.
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Aug 27, 2017 15:54
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:She's actually a superhero with Greek mythological trappings who first appeared in 1941. It's a tendency of fandom however to de facto turn these characters into gods and their stories into scripture, because fandom is a project to replace religion with pop culture. This is what teagone and BrianWilly are arguing for: Wonder Woman as a replacement for Jesus. I take issue with the idea that having a replacement for Jesus is a bad thing, because the purpose of the bible as an actual work is to teach people how to live a happy and wholesome life with other people. So long as you can teach people these messages it really doesn't matter the shape it takes form in, and using things children are interested in allows the message to resonate more fully with the audience who benefit most from these messages. Especially given Religion largely could be considered pop culture of our own ancient past, it's not surprising that there are legitimate giant fanfiction about Christian Mythology. Dante's Inferno for one thing. Religion exists because it is the largest fandom in the world, to the point where it's sparked literal flame wars over the correct interpretation of the original work. If someone can get a good message about how to live their life out of Wonder Woman then good for them, don't reduce the importance of things people love and identify with because it's modern and not ancient.
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Aug 27, 2017 16:11
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Lord_Magmar posted:I take issue with the idea that having a replacement for Jesus is a bad thing, because the purpose of the bible as an actual work is to teach people how to live a happy and wholesome life with other people. So long as you can teach people these messages it really doesn't matter the shape it takes form in, and using things children are interested in allows the message to resonate more fully with the audience who benefit most from these messages. What lessons does Wonder Woman teach?
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Aug 27, 2017 16:19
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Schwarzwald posted:What lessons does Wonder Woman teach? I honestly don't really 100% know, but if it has a message and people learn and respond to it that's a good thing, because you can have the best and most important lesson/message in the world and if your method of communication doesn't work your message/lesson means nothing. From memory it's that not everything is simple or black and white but that shouldn't stop you from doing the right thing, that would be my best guess having only watched the movie once. There's certainly plenty of lessons people seem to have learnt, and unlike many religious texts so far nobody has been killed over their interpretation of this movie and it's messages/lessons so I chalk that up as a win.
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Aug 27, 2017 16:30
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RBA Starblade posted:Who's Gloria? Collosal. A freak lightning strike gives her incredible psychic powers that she uses to defend Korea. Renoistic posted:How many good, or at least mediocre, super hero movies with a solo female lead had been made before this one? There is nothing redeeming about Supergirl, Barb Wire, Aeon Flux or Catwoman. Electra looks like a direct to video movie. Katniss Everdeen has a superhero name, superhero symbol/logo, custom superhero costume, and the same 'powers' & equipment as Hawkeye in Avengers. Unlike Hawkeye, she also has her own tetralogy of films, going from from her origin as a sci-fi gladiator to her retirement after helping to save North America. As people have noted, you are jumping around randomly because you are beginning from the conclusion that Wonder Woman's marketing is accurate. You have no actual concern for pure artistic merit, or this weak genre quibbling ("the female Robocop isn't a superhero; she's a science fiction action thriller hero"). And you obviously don't actually care about money made, or rottentomato scores, or what's good for children, or any of that other stuff.
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Aug 27, 2017 16:45
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I thought the movie did a good job with that honestly, and is only REALLY on the nose when Steve is arguing with her about how to proceed with the mission and basically says outright how she doesn't understand that they can't just roll in and kill the one biggest bad and that magically solves whatever problem is happening. Even after she kills Ares, this thread made me expect otherwise but it's not like all of the soldiers drop their arms and peace and love reign forever. They all just stop fighting because they're all stunned that a literal god just popped up in front of them and had a Dragon Ball Z kind of battle with someone and then died right in front of them. Wonder Woman at the beginning of the movie is aching to be a hero in the real ancient world mythological sense of a hero being a hero because they're able to not only defeat a billion dudes in battle but also earn a title shot at trying to defeat the biggest baddest dude with no endgame beyond that. And like a lot of fairytales and fables it does a good job having her slowly grow beyond that. I think it was smart to have the modern day hero she meets in Steve be a more focused spy/espionage person for that reason. And on the one hand the world not being in black and white and having nuance may be like a 101-level life lesson to some, but it's a mass marketed PG-13 movie so if some teenager comes away from it and it gave them something to think about that's cool. Still I don't know if I'd make a 1:1 comparison to organized religion beyond the most superficial "people get obsessed with this."
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Aug 27, 2017 16:54
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Lord_Magmar posted:I take issue with the idea that having a replacement for Jesus is a bad thing, because the purpose of the bible as an actual work is to teach people how to live a happy and wholesome life with other people. So long as you can teach people these messages it really doesn't matter the shape it takes form in, and using things children are interested in allows the message to resonate more fully with the audience who benefit most from these messages. Pop culture is modern mass entertainment. Religion is an attempt to determine how one should live a good life. So no, it can't.
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Aug 27, 2017 16:54
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Wonder Woman is no less real than God. Religion is a sham. A real opiate for the masses if you will.
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Aug 27, 2017 16:58
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Pop culture is modern mass entertainment. Religion is an attempt to determine how one should live a good life. I would argue that modern mass entertainment is equally an attempt to control and determine how one should live a life. Pop culture is merely a control vector of consumerism.
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Aug 27, 2017 17:04
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Collosal. A freak lightning strike gives her incredible psychic powers that she uses to defend Korea. Thanks, hadn't watched Colossal yet so I didn't recognize the name.
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Aug 27, 2017 17:48
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RBA Starblade posted:Thanks, hadn't watched Colossal yet so I didn't recognize the name. The antagonist in Colossal was better than almost any villain in MCU continuity. It was a much better movie than I thought it would be, overall.
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Aug 27, 2017 17:53
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...I'd try to explain the definition of a superhero to you lot, but I have a feeling that's going nowhere. Though a replacement for Jesus Christ might be necessary given how most established religion is, despite the flavour text of love and caring, a hollowed-out shell for patriarchal sexism, bigotry, greed and xenophobia as far as many people under 30 are concerned.
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Aug 27, 2017 17:58
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Inescapable Duck posted:Though a replacement for Jesus Christ might be necessary given how most established religion is, despite the flavour text of love and caring, a hollowed-out shell for patriarchal sexism, bigotry, greed and xenophobia as far as many people under 30 are concerned. ...and you're looking towards Hollywood for an alternative?
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Aug 27, 2017 18:04
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:...and you're looking towards Hollywood for an alternative? Next stop, the government.
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Aug 27, 2017 18:10
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Schwarzwald posted:What lessons does Wonder Woman teach? Love conquers all. Seriously, nobody watched Red Sonja? She faught Conan the Barbarian to a draw!
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Aug 27, 2017 18:17
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