|
It's like trickle-down economics, except now instead of fantasizing there's some socioeconomic justice coming from it, it's strictly about feeling good. Doping, if you will, for the masses.
|
#
?
Aug 27, 2017 18:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 22:50 |
|
|
Inescapable Duck posted:...I'd try to explain the definition of a superhero to you lot, but I have a feeling that's going nowhere. Jet Jaguar is a real hero, a real human being. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-CvNxRs5Zs
|
|
#
?
Aug 27, 2017 18:17
|
|
|
Inescapable Duck posted:...I'd try to explain the definition of a superhero to you lot, but I have a feeling that's going nowhere. In just two sentences, you've summed things up. Failed to define what a superhero is, and then professed incredible cynicism that you then attributed to a vague subject-supposed-to-believe. "Many people under 30." Bullshit. What you are actually expressing is your own belief that the world needs an antichrist.
|
|
#
?
Aug 27, 2017 18:20
|
|
|
"Heh, stupid Xtian bigots worshipping a non-existent wizard, if only they knew where the truth really lies" *reads X-Men comic*
|
|
#
?
Aug 27, 2017 18:23
|
|
|
gohmak posted:Love conquers all. Arnold didn't play Conan in that movie hes like a guard captain. Arnold has a really good saying about Red Sonja too! quote:"It's the worst film I have ever made." He joked, "Now, when my kids get out of line, they're sent to their room and forced to watch Red Sonja ten times. I never have too much trouble with them."
|
|
#
?
Aug 27, 2017 18:24
|
|
|
Tenzarin posted:Arnold didn't play Conan in that movie hes like a guard captain. Arnold has a really good saying about Red Sonja too! He's also a Republican so his opinion doesn't matter. Red Sonja is awesome.
|
|
#
?
Aug 27, 2017 18:27
|
|
|
Red Sonja sucks but gets points for having some of the dumbest/raddest ye olde fantasy setting helmets in film history.
|
|
#
?
Aug 27, 2017 18:57
|
|
|
gohmak posted:He's also a Republican so his opinion doesn't matter. Red Sonja is awesome. But Red Sonja is white. Isn't that problematic? [edit] BravestOfTheLamps posted:This is what teagone and BrianWilly are arguing for: Wonder Woman as a replacement for Jesus. Wonder Woman is life. teagone fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Aug 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Aug 27, 2017 20:07
|
|
|
WWWWD
|
|
#
?
Aug 27, 2017 20:33
|
|
|
[quote="teagone" post="475803299"] But Red Sonja is white. Isn't that problematic? [edit] Indeed.
|
|
#
?
Aug 27, 2017 21:00
|
|
|
gohmak posted:[quote="teagone" post="475803299"] Just wanted to make sure poo poo was consistent 
|
|
#
?
Aug 27, 2017 21:57
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:Pop culture is modern mass entertainment. Religion is an attempt to determine how one should live a good life. Religion was mostly a method by which a singular person or group of people could control their society so that everyone else would have to listen to them and do what they want. At least modern pop culture doesn't hoard knowledge or the ability to understand it, unlike most ancient religions and especially Christianity where only the Church and those it deemed worthy were taught to read and write in the language of it's holy book. And modern mass entertainment can still have a message or lesson, to ignore this possibility leaves you incapable of receiving anything from said entertainment besides hedonistic enjoyment, and you don't even appear to get that.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 00:20
|
|
|
The real question is why is a movie expected to lead a revolution? And how is Wonder Woman more important than say, Pitch Perfect 2, The Edge of Seventeen, or The Babadook? (It's the money isn't it?)
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 00:28
|
|
|
Renoistic posted:I don't remember - is WW made from clay or a demi-goddess in the movie? People in this thread keep calling her a demi-god, which is an odd distinction the film never makes. Only a god can kill a god, and all that. Unless Ares is only half-dead.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 00:34
|
|
|
There's Ares, who holds the title of God of War, and Wonder Woman killed Ares, so she inherited the mantle. She's either born of a god/mortal pairing, made from clay and imbued with more than mortal powers from a god, or is an immortal who rose in rank to godhood. Those all fit the bill of demi-ness.wyoming posted:The real question is why is a movie expected to lead a revolution? It's not more important (aside from the money bit) but it is much more unique to the genre it participates in. So it makes a bunch of money AND it's unique in modern comic book history since it's women-fronted (plus it's an incredibly [for America] well established mythology). People who scream about how good it is like they're some teenager at a Justin Beiber concert are freakin' basket cases, though. Like, it's a pretty fun movie, the top tier of Marvel's style and meaningfulness, but c'mon. Drifter fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Aug 28, 2017 |
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 00:41
|
|
|
Kratos killed Ares better and Zeus for that matter.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 00:50
|
|
|
I believe the whole demigod thing comes from the fact that Hippolyta is a (magical, ageless) mortal. Children of gods and mortals are usually considered demigods (and sometimes not even that) until they attain some kind of further apotheosis (which Diana arguably does, by the end of this film).wyoming posted:The real question is why is a movie expected to lead a revolution? In other words, https://twitter.com/megsauce/status/871179290238308354 wyoming posted:And how is Wonder Woman more important than say, Pitch Perfect 2, The Edge of Seventeen, or The Babadook? But there have been comedic girl power films before Pitch Perfect 2 and coming-of-age teen dramas before The Edge of Seventeen. One could argue that the latter genre, at least, is one that specifically welcomes and is filled with female stories and creators. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, is a case where female stories and creators have entered a space usually reserved for and dominated by male stories and creators. And now we cycle back to our usual suspects bringing up the worst, most derided, most ignoble female comic book movies of the past in order to prove how WW isn't actually important or special
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 00:50
|
|
|
This is just an endorsement of that mediocrity, though.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 00:51
|
|
|
Not quite, because there are different social stigmas and expectations facing men and women. One could argue that men in general could stand to exhibit a little less unwarranted machismo -- see, even the word itself is male-oriented -- while women in general could stand to exhibit a bit more. In other words, we are not equal until we are all afforded the same opportunities to be equally mediocre.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 00:57
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:In other words, we are not equal until we are all afforded the same opportunities to be equally mediocre. I reject this falsehood utterly.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 00:58
|
|
|
HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:This is just an endorsement of that mediocrity, though. That statement is so dumb on many levels. As if white privilege, white male privilege is a state of mind not structural.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 04:09
|
|
|
The great feminist heroine Lucy eschews violence in the most radical way possible, and that's only mildly out there.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 04:24
|
|
|
What people in this thread are struggling to articulate is that Wonder Woman is a triumph of what ad men refer to as 'Post-Demographic' marketing and consumerism. "Post-Demographic" products are basically, according to the marketeers, 'universal' - in the sense that they can be promoted and sold to anyone, due to customizability and/or genericity. Examples include Facebook and Coke. The female superhero film Mockingjay (aka Hunger Games 3) made the same amount of money as Wonder Woman, with the same budget. It did it first, and it's frankly the better film. It also has more progressive themes. The only reason to discount or ignore this is if you consider its ties to Girl Culture a liability. Mockingjay wasn't hyped on Superherohype Dot Com. It was understood as a Young Adult film, too specifically female to be sold as a 'universal' product. Wonder Woman is only unique in one respect: that it is marketed to boys as part of a Nerd Culture franchise, despite having all the trappings of a Girl Culture film. This is why people only care about black and female characters that are part of the MCU & DCU: the goal is inclusion and subsumption into a pre-existing male franchise. Although all the talk is all how it is good for women, the specific praise is that Wonder Woman is not a film "for women" but a film "for everyone". SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Aug 28, 2017 |
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 04:25
|
|
|
Hunger Game 3 is downright Marxist
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 05:00
|
|
|
I thought the author of The Hunger Games was a libertarian survivalist or something.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 05:12
|
|
|
Mr. Apollo posted:I thought the author of The Hunger Games was a libertarian survivalist or something. I haven't read the book but it wouldn't be the first time the movie adaptation inverted the source material.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 05:39
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:I believe the whole demigod thing comes from the fact that Hippolyta is a (magical, ageless) mortal. Children of gods and mortals are usually considered demigods (and sometimes not even that) until they attain some kind of further apotheosis (which Diana arguably does, by the end of this film). BrianWilly posted:Not quite, because there are different social stigmas and expectations facing men and women. One could argue that men in general could stand to exhibit a little less unwarranted machismo -- see, even the word itself is male-oriented -- while women in general could stand to exhibit a bit more. The basic conclusion you present is that progress is that anybody could be in the position of an affluent straight white man. We may have equality if everyone can make big blockbuster movies in Hollywood. Once everybody is an affluent straight white man, no one is. Notice that you're still avoiding talking about any values or ideals that make Wonder Woman the movie progressive. e: Lord_Magmar posted:Religion was mostly a method by which a singular person or group of people could control their society so that everyone else would have to listen to them and do what they want. At least modern pop culture doesn't hoard knowledge or the ability to understand it, unlike most ancient religions and especially Christianity where only the Church and those it deemed worthy were taught to read and write in the language of it's holy book. Wow, these smug liberal pop history interpretations of religion really take me back. In reality, most people weren't even taught to read or write because the economic structure of the medieval world made it an expensive luxury, and which was unnecesary for a population that mostly consisted of manual labourers who lived and interacted in an overwhelmingly oral culture. You don't even seem to realize that even if everyone could read the Bible, the book itself would have been an unimaginable luxury item for most people before the invention of the printing press. Everyone who was considered educated would have learned Latin, and "the Church" did little to stop people from being educated because it was already a rather exclusive privilege. What you're actually referring is to the Catholic Church's enforcement of its monopoly on ministry and preaching, and its historical efforts to control/stop unauthorized translations of the bible into vernacular languages. These were de facto questions of power, but which you're barely cognizant of because of your shallow understanding of Medieval/Renaissance history. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Aug 28, 2017 |
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 06:40
|
|
|
It's sort of interesting to hear a bunch of people denigrating the importance of fictional role models, people who are overwhelmingly white men, and thus cannot even imagine not having a shitload of role models.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 12:45
|
|
|
The complaints are about what a shallow role model WW is, or at least how shallow and evasive the discussion about her is. Is she actually that great a leap from Hunger Games protagonist? Should we even have a female counterpart to Tony Stark, one of the worst used characters in the history of popular culture?
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 12:57
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:The complaints are about what a shallow role model WW is, or at least how shallow and evasive the discussion about her is. Is she actually that great a leap from Hunger Games protagonist? Should we even have a female counterpart to Tony Stark, one of the worst used characters in the history of popular culture? Every popular role model is terrible. Whether they're a comedian/philandering coke addict, an athelete/wife beating degenerate gambler, or a fictional character who never quite makes a point as well as they should. It's not that Wonder Woman is better than the Hunger Games, but a genuinely powerful lady superhero has never actually been this popular before, and is, if nothing else, a nice novelty. It's such a common place thing for a male superhero that you, an adult, have probably forgotten which part of your identity is based on aspiring to that idea as a child.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 13:27
|
|
|
So you're promoting a Ivan Karamazov - esque stance that popular role models bad and corrupt, but we must deceive children into believing ideals that we don't. Jesus that's cynical. You're the one actually denigrating role models.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 13:44
|
|
|
Snowman_McK posted:It's not that Wonder Woman is better than the Hunger Games, but a genuinely powerful lady superhero has never actually been this popular before, and is, if nothing else, a nice novelty. The female superhero movie Breaking Dawn: Part 2 made more money than Wonder Woman, on a lower budget. This was five years ago. Again, you need to be specific; by "this popular" you are specifically referring to the female characters' popularity across demographics: with men, and with you. It doesn't matter to you that Bella Swan is much more popular with women.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 14:15
|
|
|
Maybe you should go to a feminism thread and ask them yourself why women are so excited about this apparently redundant 'superhero', SMG.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 15:38
|
|
|
Inescapable Duck posted:Maybe you should go to a feminism thread and ask them yourself why women are so excited about this apparently redundant 'superhero', SMG. Uhhh don't all the SA feminism threads keep getting shut down because dudes make it all about them and drive out all the women posters lol
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 16:12
|
|
|
Inescapable Duck posted:Maybe you should go to a feminism thread and ask them yourself why women are so excited about this apparently redundant 'superhero', SMG. I am not asking questions. I am performing an ideological critique of the film, and of the response to it. Feminism is an egalitarian political movement, not 'things women like'. You are attempting to depoliticize the discussion of the film and prevent understanding, in an apparent effort to defend Wonder Woman against progressive politics. Like that's the priority.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 16:46
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:Feminism is an egalitarian political movement, not 'things women like'. Maybe you should be silent and listen to women when they argue for what they do and don't appreciate in popular cinema. Instead of trying to intellectually justify why "actually, there's been plenty of films with women in, so maybe that's enough".
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2017 00:29
|
|
|
Karloff posted:Maybe you should be silent and listen to women when they argue for what they do and don't appreciate in popular cinema. Instead of trying to intellectually justify why "actually, there's been plenty of films with women in, so maybe that's enough". Wonder Woman was more successful due to the, essentially, full force and backing of two multibillion dollar marketing campaigns than it being a particularly challenging story or having things to say. it's almost a tautological success - being successful because it was successful - perfectly fitting a mold that had been cast and nigh-perfected years prior. WW has all the lasting social impact of a modern disney princess. That doesn't negate it being a pretty fun movie to watch, however.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2017 00:38
|
|
|
Karloff posted:Maybe you should be silent and listen to women when they argue for what they do and don't appreciate in popular cinema. Instead of trying to intellectually justify why "actually, there's been plenty of films with women in, so maybe that's enough". The discussion isn't whether or not women like Wonder Woman. It's about whether or not Wonder Woman is a "step forward," especially when it's so difficult to define what makes her a progressive figure. Just see how little people refer to the actual movie when talking about what a "step forward" it is and instead quote tweets about children playing or talk about marketing and employment. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Aug 29, 2017 |
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2017 00:44
|
|
|
Drifter posted:Wonder Woman was more successful due to the, essentially, full force and backing of two multibillion dollar marketing campaigns than it being a particularly challenging story or having things to say. it's almost a tautological success - being successful because it was successful - perfectly fitting a mold that had been cast and nigh-perfected years prior. WW has all the lasting social impact of a modern disney princess. On the other hand, the minute that WW debuted at 96% fresh (which would decrease a bit over time), success was all but guaranteed. If there's tautological recipe for success at work here, I'd argue it's comprised more from the bits and pieces that made this film as review-friendly and quote-unquote "fun to watch" as it is and less from the studios throwing money into ads or commercials and stuff. Lots of movies have that. Lots of movies are left in the lurch despite having that. And, again, it's not just that the movie has succeeded, but that its degree of success really speaks to the audience's hunger for movies like this. And I don't just mean "a female supehero," but also of the novelty factor in seeing previously-unexplored characters instead of the same names and faces that we've had for ages now. Not to, y'know, start claiming that bubbles have burst or whatever, but we've seen Batman so many times now. We've seen Superman. We've seen Spider-Mans, and the X-Men, and RDJ has been playing Iron Man for for ten years across seven films. I think people were just really curious about Wonder Woman because she's a pretty common household namedrop but her story has never really been told until now, regardless of whether it follows any creative mold or not. But really, what I disagree with is the idea that this film was some sort of surefire bet that was guaranteed success by mathematical formulae and stuff 'cuz, like...it could've gone wrong. It could have gone so wrong. The character has traditionally been hard to nail down by writers, the studio spent year after year after one script after another and, poo poo y'all, we could've ended up with a Whedon version if the winds had blown just a little bit off course. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Aug 29, 2017 |
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2017 01:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 22:50 |
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:The discussion isn't whether or not women like Wonder Woman. It's about whether or not Wonder Woman is a "step forward," especially when it's so difficult to define what makes her a progressive figure. Just see how little people refer to the actual movie when talking about what a "step forward" it is and instead quote tweets about children playing or talk about marketing and employment. Little girls showing appreciation for a female superhero on the Big Screen is a step forward. Sorry, I know being a bitter cynical misanthrope is sorta your thing and an idea like that probably throws you into a tissy but it's noteworthy.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2017 01:45
|
|
