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Oh god a loving tweet containing some anecdotes about the positive effects of Wonder Woman?!?! This travesty can't go unchallenged! It didn't happen! It doesn't matter! Those little girls don't know what they're talking about! I, the fat virginal nerd will show them the light!
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Aug 29, 2017 01:49
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Yaws posted:Oh god a loving tweet containing some anecdotes about the positive effects of Wonder Woman?!?! This travesty can't go unchallenged! It didn't happen! It doesn't matter! Those little girls don't know what they're talking about! I, the fat virginal nerd will show them the light! No one's talking about those tweets.
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Aug 29, 2017 01:54
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nevermind
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Aug 29, 2017 01:58
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Karloff posted:Maybe you should be silent and listen to women when they argue for what they do and don't appreciate in popular cinema. Instead of trying to intellectually justify why "actually, there's been plenty of films with women in, so maybe that's enough". You are confused. I am not an intellectual and I am not attacking the Wonder Woman film. That is not my priority. Neither am I attacking the concept of women in film. That is dumb. I am simply and straightforwardly performing an ideological critique of the Wonder Woman movie, through an egalitarian lens. Your reaction against this political stance is that I should just "listen to women". Which women? Do all women share the same politics?
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Aug 29, 2017 02:57
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"Children see Wonder Woman as a role model" is a bar so low that it's not even a bar. "Physically powerful and classically beautiful" getting warmer. "Is not framed as a woman attempting to hang and compete with males and their standards (and failing)" warmer yet. "After being brought up by closeted and disenchanted lesbians that leave her with child-like emotions and social skills, Wonder Woman becomes a successful sociopolitical radical in a story marketed to children" - mmm yeah that's the stuff
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Aug 29, 2017 03:04
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dont even fink about it posted:"After being brought up by closeted and disenchanted lesbians that leave her with child-like emotions and social skills, Wonder Woman becomes a successful sociopolitical radical in a story marketed to children" - mmm yeah that's the stuff Unfortunately, it also isn't what happens in the film.
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Aug 29, 2017 03:13
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Schwarzwald posted:Unfortunately, it also isn't what happens in the film. Have you ever had an original thought in your head Schwarzwald?
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Aug 29, 2017 03:17
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The movie is pretty close to terminator.
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Aug 29, 2017 04:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Which women? Do all women share the same politics? https://www.forbes.com/sites/susannahbreslin/2017/08/26/james-cameron-wonder-woman/#42928f1d40aa Apparently not.
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Aug 29, 2017 04:58
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If we're going to ask if Wonder Woman is a "step forward," we should ask who the character is. And to learn that, we have to see what choices she makes, and what her actions are.
Wonder Woman has a strong sense of personal responsibility, and equates being responsible with taking action to help people. Specifically, people without power. This is largely the drive behind her quest to kill Ares. She believes Ares has influenced mankind to commit evil actions (war, specifically), and that mankind is powerless to resist his corrupting influence. As an Amazon (which Zeus specifically crafted to resist Ares corruption), she feels a duty to kill Ares and liberate mankind.
For all that she is compassionate, Wonder Woman is entirely willing to take an almost surgical approach to freeing mankind. The sooner Ares dies, the less mankind suffers in total, so it is fully permissible for her to cut down any number of soldiers (and bar patrons) if it brings her closer to Ares. ...of course, that is only up until she actually engages Ares. Where, her faith having been shaken, she
This is a start of a change in her character. Ares has truthfully told her that he has not corrupted mankind, that killing him would not liberate mankind. She still believes being responsible means taking action, but her actions are no longer for the benefit of the helpless. At least, momentarily.
This is the conclusion of her change. Given that she cannot take action to free mankind, she decides the responsible thing is not to take action--to allow mankind to take responsibility for it's own actions. This is what killing Ares ultimately accomplishes--it removes the excuse of divine malevolence. This is not a story about a successful sociopolitical radical. This is a story about a god, faced with the problem of evil, deciding upon (and enforcing) divine nonintervention. The actually moral of the film (as embodied by the character of Steve Trevor) is that we should not depend on the gods for help (societal or otherwise), but rely on the actions of ourselves and our fellows. Something between Hercules and the Wagoner and "trust in God but tie your camel." I think Wonder Woman is a good film. I'm not so cynical to call it a step forward for feminism.
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Aug 29, 2017 05:55
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Tenzarin posted:The movie is pretty close to terminator. Perspective-flipped? (and instead of from the future, the indestructible killing machines are from the past!)
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Aug 29, 2017 06:19
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:So you're promoting a Ivan Karamazov - esque stance that popular role models bad and corrupt, but we must deceive children into believing ideals that we don't. No. Turns out you're as bad at reading posts as you are at reading movies
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Aug 29, 2017 06:29
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I would suggest reviewing the thesis of the Simpsons episode 'Kamp Krusty' before thinking that the idea of the 'superhero' is broad enough you can count any protagonist as one, and that symbols are interchangeable. Literal children aren't fooled by obvious substitutions, you can't replace a lost toy with one of very vaguely similar colour. Names and symbols matter.
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Aug 29, 2017 07:13
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I'm legit not trying to be a shithead when I ask, what's a superhero?
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Aug 29, 2017 08:06
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A hero kills people. People that wish him harm. A hero is part human and part supernatural. A hero is born out of a childhood trauma or out of a disaster that must be avenged. We all have a hero in our heart.
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Aug 29, 2017 08:14
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I don't want to belabour the point, but you're still not referencing anything in the movie. Yaws posted:Little girls showing appreciation for a female superhero on the Big Screen is a step forward. Yaws posted:Oh god a loving tweet containing some anecdotes about the positive effects of Wonder Woman?!?! This travesty can't go unchallenged! It didn't happen! It doesn't matter! Those little girls don't know what they're talking about! I, the fat virginal nerd will show them the light! lol We have already established for a while that the movie is popular. Children indeed like it. But the thing that people are struggling to explain is how this makes Wonder Woman progressive. Notice that you're doing exactly the thing I criticized: not actually referencing the movie itself to justify it being "a step forward," only it's popular success. This gives the impression that the movie itself secondary and insignificant compared to the protagonist's 'iconic' value. The odd thing is that it's very easy to reference the movie. For example, the movie's villain is anti-humanist, and Wonder Woman opposes him because she's a humanist. This is a basic progressive stance. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Aug 29, 2017 |
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Aug 29, 2017 08:30
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Schwarzwald posted:I think Wonder Woman is a good film. Moreover, the idea that a female narrative needs to be somehow...what, more innovative?...more profound?...more pure?...softer?...less problem-ridden?...than the equivalent male narrative or else it's no longer important or feminist is the very definition of inequality. The amount of hoops that this film has to jump through, the amount of tests that it has to pass in order to be considered progressive for its intended demographic is frankly gate-keeping at best and concern-trolling at worst. That's the self-congratulatory mindset from James Cameron where there's only one perfect type of woman allowed on the scene and oh it just so coincidentally happens to be his perfect type of woman. That's the very mindset that's kept female voices and stories cordoned off from male spaces for ages, under the auspice that a male story can be practically anything under the sun and say virtually anything it wants to say, but a female story has to be a certain way and can't be something other than that way because don't you see we're just looking out for you poor beleaguered feminists? Apropos of nothing, I've heard that mindset applied to many other minority demographics as well, where their stories aren't considered progressive -- or in some cases, are outright regressive -- if they don't just shatter any and all problematic issues facing not only their own strata but of all other persecuted classes as well, and it's a standard that no film can hope to achieve. A standard wherein a story about a woman or a minority can't just be a story about a woman or a minority to be something extraordinary but also has to pass all those other gratuitous hoops and tests. Where Wonder Woman the film is progressive is that it says a story about a woman can be exactly this -- nothing more and nothing less -- and that's exactly what it should be because female stories have in fact been denied permission to be exactly this up until now. DeimosRising posted:I'm legit not trying to be a shithead when I ask, what's a superhero?
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Aug 29, 2017 11:14
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BrianWilly posted:A standard wherein a story about a woman or a minority can't just be a story about a woman or a minority to be something extraordinary but also has to pass all those other gratuitous hoops and tests. You're basically arguing that the actual content of the movie is insignificant. It could be sexist and politically regressive for all we know, but at least it's an action blockbuster starring a woman.
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Aug 29, 2017 11:18
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To kids, none of that matters.
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Aug 29, 2017 11:21
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Well we've gone to from "Wonder Woman is a step forward" to "It doesn't matter if it's good or bad".
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Aug 29, 2017 11:23
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Wonder Woman is a step forward because it's a big budget film normally directed by men, directed by a woman, about a compassionate woman hero who steps in to do what she believes is right. That's the kind of stuff that kids take in. (Maybe, maybe not the director aspect. Depending on the kid, to be honest) That is what is important. Not this alien poo poo you're all talking about.
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Aug 29, 2017 11:30
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Well we've gone to from "Wonder Woman is a step forward" to "It doesn't matter if it's good or bad". It was good though. Please keep up.
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Aug 29, 2017 11:34
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CelticPredator posted:Wonder Woman is a step forward because it's a big budget film normally directed by men, directed by a woman, about a compassionate woman hero who steps in to do what she believes is right. Well you clarified your point from the chat thread: anyone who doesn't think children liking Wonder Woman the movie/the character is a "step forward" is detached from humanity, alien in their sentiments and behaviour. This is obviously a colossal dumb thing you've said. You're defining humanity as the ability to agree that a big blockbuster movie is progressive because there's a tweet of a child meeting Gal Gadot. The truly tragicmic part is that I'm not even claiming that Wonder Woman isn't a "step forward," but that the movie is a short and hesitant step applauded and feted by back-patting critics and audiences. No one can really deny that the movie/character is mildly progressive, but it is just mildly. Like SMG argues, it's actually men who seem to celebrate Wonder Woman most as the first true superhero movie for women, when they really seem to be projecting their own approval. This talk about how kids like Wonder Woman is basically the same in principle: adults are using children to justify their own approval. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Aug 29, 2017 |
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Aug 29, 2017 11:59
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Here's the "bonus' scene that comes with the bluray. It definitely feels like sequence that was supposed to go mid credits. https://twitter.com/YahooMovies/status/902184606174248960/video/1
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Aug 29, 2017 13:42
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Any indication as to what artifact they're talking about? First thought, maybe the Mother Box that would eventually become Cyborg.
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Aug 29, 2017 13:55
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Inescapable Duck posted:Any indication as to what artifact they're talking about? First thought, maybe the Mother Box that would eventually become Cyborg.
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Aug 29, 2017 14:00
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She was already running on rooftops at the end, that makes her a superhero. Roof stalking.
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Aug 29, 2017 14:57
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Inescapable Duck posted:Any indication as to what artifact they're talking about? First thought, maybe the Mother Box that would eventually become Cyborg. Is the Mother Box https://twitter.com/dceufacts/status/902397824695812096
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Aug 29, 2017 16:10
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Schwarzwald posted:I think Wonder Woman is a good film. It's the kind of reading that is not taking place: In the big animated painting, all the fully-grown amazons stepping out of the ocean are light-skinned women - but then Hippolyta is later shown standing and fighting alongside several black amazons. And, of course, the island's population in the film itself is multi-racial (albeit still mostly-white). Obviously Amazons are not born but recruited. Hippolyta led a revolt by a bunch of women enslaved by the Greeks, escaped to a faraway island, and then generated the whole metaphorical backstory. The crucial point is that the women are not born immortal and then called Amazons. Exploited women from all different backgrounds may be recruited as Amazons and, when this happens, they cut all ties with their past lives - 'born again', without a history. When they are allowed to live on Themyscira, these normal women become immortal by drinking and bathing in the glowing waters. Hence, 'born from the sea': born from the water. Themyscira is an isolationist theocracy, specifically a type of Zeus cult (of which there were many). And, in their religious teachings, Zeus is specifically a God Of Fiction who does battle against (and represses) the God Of Truth. The threat of Truth is such that the Amazons will not even speak his real title. Truth, to them, is synonymous with War. When you understand the meaning of 'Zeus' and 'born from the sea', then you can understand the meaning of 'shaped from clay'. Diana is a blank slate: Themyscira's first natural birth, and therefore the only Amazon with absolutely no knowledge of the outside world. As a result, she is the only Amazon to be purely and naively credulous of their mythology. This is why Diana is told that she was "brought to life by Zeus": her father is Fiction. The notion of a pure paradise before the fall was always a lie. Even "Paradise Island" must sustain itself with the ideological fantasy of an outside corrupting threat, against which they must unite.* The Amazons may have no capitalism, but they also have no industry and no class-consciousness. Their society has remained stagnant for millenia, and their only significant technology is scavenged from (presumably) an alien crash site or something. So Hippolyta literally fears that Diana will become too smart, tries to keep her in the dark: "the stronger [Diana] gets, the sooner [Truth] will find her." *Note the shot where the German soldier, chasing Steve Trevor, reaches out towards the large Iron Cross and is then instantly transported into the land of ideological fantasy. The point is that there is something vaguely proto-fascist about the Amazon society, in the Starship Troopers sense that 'war makes fascists of us all'. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Aug 29, 2017 |
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Aug 29, 2017 18:42
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Rewatching the first fight scene after No Man's Land in the office building, there are a lot of little touches that I love, like Diana sliding across the room with her shield to close distance and holding the godkiller sword by the blade to beat a dude up with the hilt 
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Aug 30, 2017 01:17
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Mr. Apollo posted:Here's the "bonus' scene that comes with the bluray. It definitely feels like sequence that was supposed to go mid credits. An all powerful artifact, sure I can believe that. But Brits thinking the best idea is to deliver it to the Americans... that's just a bridge too far.
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Aug 30, 2017 04:09
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hiddenriverninja posted:Rewatching the first fight scene after No Man's Land in the office building, there are a lot of little touches that I love, like Diana sliding across the room with her shield to close distance and holding the godkiller sword by the blade to beat a dude up with the hilt Mr. Apollo fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Aug 30, 2017 |
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Aug 30, 2017 04:30
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Karloff posted:Maybe you should be silent and listen to women when they argue for what they do and don't appreciate in popular cinema. Bella Swan, mainly EDIT: Katniss Everdeen, is also cool
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Aug 30, 2017 04:45
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https://twitter.com/DCEUniverse/status/902403936291835905
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Aug 30, 2017 06:13
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Jenkins on the WW sequel:quote:“The greatest thing about making this [the first Wonder Woman] movie was the fact that you’re really building to the Wonder Woman that we all love, but not until the end of the movie. The most exciting thing about [the sequel] is literally seeing her loose in the world now, living those classic stories. Here’s Wonder Woman, and what can she do? It should be a totally different movie, but a grand and now full-blown Wonder Woman in the world.”
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Aug 30, 2017 20:07
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Schwarzwald posted:This is not a story about a successful sociopolitical radical. This is a story about a god, faced with the problem of evil, deciding upon (and enforcing) divine nonintervention. This is a good post, and these two parts especially. It also puts a pretty clear pin on what I disliked most about it; I have no patience for theodicy. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Aug 30, 2017 |
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Aug 30, 2017 20:12
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Jenny Angel posted:Bella Swan, mainly It's noteworthy that these two characters mentioned are all but completely different women, going through two completely different stories. If we take the success of these two franchises along with the newfound success of Wonder Woman into consideration, then the answer to "what women appreciate" is "a wide breadth of characters and stories." Essentially, we mustn't fall into Cameron's trap of constraining the female narrative.
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Aug 30, 2017 21:55
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No one in this thread has argued that women do not like Wonder Woman.
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Aug 30, 2017 21:58
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Schwarzwald posted:No one in this thread has argued that women do not like Wonder Woman. It's really telling that people react to the assertion 'populism is not progressivism' by continually insisting that the movie is popular. Tuxedo Catfish posted:It also puts a pretty clear pin on what I disliked most about it; I have no patience for theodicy. The film is not theodical, because Diana is not all-powerful.
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Aug 30, 2017 22:47
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The film is not theodical, because Diana is not all-powerful.
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Aug 30, 2017 23:20
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